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Apple Backpedals, Puts "All Eligible Products" Back on EPEAT Environmental Registry
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G5isAlive
Contributor
I doubt it. Apple is not that stupid or naive to make unilateral decisions without doing some fact checking. This is Apple strong arming EPEAT until EPEAT agreed to make some changes.
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or there are no down votes possible.
kdarling
Contributor
Just in the interest of facts:
All the storage is solid state, but solid state memory is not always read/write RAM (that a processor accesses constantly).
There's also ROM (read-only for instructions or data) with many variations, and read/write Flash memory which must be accessed in huge chunks and thus is only good for mass storage of files.
Modern smartphones have up to 2GB of RAM for running programs, and up to 64GB of Flash for mass storage of programs and data.
The phone does not share the one chunk. See above.
Now, back in the dark ages... pre 2005... Windows Mobile did divide RAM into runnable and storage memory, which meant if the power failed, you lost all your apps and data and had to reload them from a host or from your own addon nonvolatile memory card.
Sackvillenb
macrumors 6502a
Strange back-pedalling... and the laptop that wasn't certified, now is certified, and at a gold level no less... I wonder if it will stay that way after it's reviewed... kind of a strange quagmire... but I guess Apple saw how this is hurting them and now they're trying to keep their epeat status...!
There does seem to be some movement with the mSATA connector but I think it is still early days (and it was particularly early days when Apple released its first laptop with a blade SSD in 2010).
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5854/asus-zenbook-ssd-and-apples-macbook-air-ssd-are-not-compatible
You mix up flash storage and RAM. My point is very simple: why is it acceptable for all smartphones to have non-replaceable RAM but laptops?
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You could not be more wrong. RAM is volatile storage, remove the power and it's content is gone, Flash memory retains its content. Look up the tech specs for any smartphone and you will find a number for RAM and a number for flash.
And this thread is about under which circumstances it is ok to make parts non-replaceable, that is the core of the beef EPEAT has with Apple.
You're asking me to engineer a computer equivalent to the rMBP? Yes, because I'm the equivalent of an entire Apple engineering team.
Stop making asinine comments, it makes you look uneducated.
The proof is out there, exemplified by the numerous ultrabooks available that use standard 2.5" or mSATA SDDs.
Oh, and how do you explain the minute yet still significant difference between the MBA and rMBP SSDs? If you're going to create a proprietary drive, why not use it across all your laptops, why create new ones for each model?
manu chao said:
You can replace the battery and add memory (SD cards) on phones. Why can't we do that on the rMBP? This goes both ways, ya know.
These are obviously different devices, except that and move on. Equating the customizability of a phone to a laptop is just another misguided view.
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Poisednoise
macrumors regular
I understand the difference between volatile and non-volatile memory, and given that two people have refuted what was after all only an assumption my part (well, strictly speaking, an assumption by minnus which I was simply trying to explain because it was clear there was misunderstanding) I am prepared to accept your superior knowledge.
However, looking at the tech specs of both the iPhone 4s (http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html) and the Samsung Galaxy SIII (http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/mobile-devices/smartphones/android/GT-I9300MBDBTU-spec) it is very clear in both cases that there is no differentiation whatsoever between the "storage" and the "memory" on the spec sheets. It's quite possible that internally that differentiation exists, but on this sample you are quite wrong to state that the tech specs for any smartphone will spell it out. Do please feel free to paste the tech specs of a smartphone which does make this explicit if you like.
Do you have an explanation for why Apple decided to make slight variations to the new 'blade SSDs' found in the 2012 vs previous models? mSATA is a widely implemented interface - I am not sure 'still early days' does it proper justice. mSATA afterall is still SATA.
I did not mix up flash storage and RAM. As I mentioned, some phone specifications used the terms interchangeably - especially in the early days of smartphones. Also, not all RAM is volatile.
I also think your point is sort of moot. We can keep going all day, and ask why the L1/2/3 cache isn't user expandable? Why can't we replace the internal DACs? Or upgrade the USB Controller? At the end of the day, there are some parts that a user can reasonably replace, and some that are simply impractical. I don't blame a company for restricting a DIY CPU upgrade, especially since so many things can go wrong for the inexperienced - but storage, memory, and typically battery are very low risk - not much can go wrong unless you intentionally design a machine to discourage DIY (such as...gluing the battery...). Apple is clearly attempting to steer the market towards accepting unserviceable/upgradable machines.
this discussion drags on and on for no reason, if apple could keep their 50% margins with upgradeable components, everything on their line up would be upgradeable.
If apple was circa 2006-8 and before where upgradability offered more of a chance to sell a mac when they weren't selling that much, we 'd have upradability, we'd also have extra hd drive storage on the retina macbook pro. Because then they wanted to entice users with options.
If anyone doesn't see that custom hd temperature sensors on the imac that have you fans spinning to high heavens if you install a 3rd party hd, or custom ssd interfaces that change from model to model are just cheap ploys so they get even more of your money, I don't know what would convince them, having an apple rep at your door with a gun saying give me that money? Apple has to ship all that flash rom they are getting with by far the highest discounts than anyone in the industry seeing as via iphones, ipads, ipods and macs they are the single biggest mover there. They sure as hell won't offer industry standard connections to ship said ram cause all the enormous profit is to be made there.
They didn't become the world's richest tech company you know by running a charity.
Now how does all that translate for the end user? Work harder and make sure you don't become poor if you want to stay on the platform that's all I am saying.
If apple was circa 2006-8 and before where upgradability offered more of a chance to sell a mac when they weren't selling that much, we 'd have upradability, we'd also have extra hd drive storage on the retina macbook pro. Because then they wanted to entice users with options.
If anyone doesn't see that custom hd temperature sensors on the imac that have you fans spinning to high heavens if you install a 3rd party hd, or custom ssd interfaces that change from model to model are just cheap ploys so they get even more of your money, I don't know what would convince them, having an apple rep at your door with a gun saying give me that money? Apple has to ship all that flash rom they are getting with by far the highest discounts than anyone in the industry seeing as via iphones, ipads, ipods and macs they are the single biggest mover there. They sure as hell won't offer industry standard connections to ship said ram cause all the enormous profit is to be made there.
They didn't become the world's richest tech company you know by running a charity.
Now how does all that translate for the end user? Work harder and make sure you don't become poor if you want to stay on the platform that's all I am saying.
You know the answer, you just don't like it. Because customers prefer the smaller form factor, longer battery life, and the increased structural integrity that integrated batteries provide.
Why do people accept the integrated RAM on smartphones? Because user-replaceable RAM would make smartphones noticeably larger. The same is true for integrated batteries in phones (which an increasing number of smartphones have).
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You know, you cannot prove that custom HDD temp sensors were put in purely to make HDD upgrades harder (not impossible, any service center can just open your iMac, check which type of sensors you need and order a third-party part) and I cannot prove that they were put in to make the iMac slimmer and cooler (and thus more quite).
We can only guess at Apple's motivations. And our guesses will be informed by what we would do in Apple's situation.
You certainly believe that everything that Apple does is there to extract as much money from its customers for a given value. Where I believe that Apple tries to add as much value as possible for a given amount of money (because they know that adding value earns them increased sales).
You cannot tell me that in 2010 (when the first Macs with blade-type SSDs shipped) mSATA was an established standard. Because it wasn't. Why they changed it now, I don't know. But I am convinced that Apple does not just for the sake of being different changes something randomly (which is what you are implying).
And who decides by which criteria which parts should be user-replaceable and which not? You propose one criteria: risk of things going wrong if replaced by a standard user. But that does not explain why replacing the RAM on smartphones is not possible. Certainly, if replacing the RAM on a laptop can be made easy and simple enough, one could do the same on smartphones. But nobody does it because there is a another, implicit criteria that you agree with: when it makes the device noticeably larger (which user-replaceable RAM would do on smartphones).
If we step out a bit more, would you also want to require electric cars to have user-replaceable batteries? You can certainly have a well-argued personal opinion on this but claiming that any differing opinion is invalid is just self-centered hubris on your part.
I honestly have no idea what is so difficult about this. Does a laptop with a 256 GB SSD and 8 GB of RAM uses both completely interchangeably?
Manufacturers are not obliged to divulge all technical specifications. And for smartphones, RAM (and processor speed) are sometimes not made public but once you have rooted a device, it is easy to install software that can extract these parameters.
Here are the tech specs for all iPhones:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphone#Model_comparison
RAM (also called memory): 512 MB
Flash storage (also called storage): 16/32/64 GB
Here for the Samsung Galaxy S III (start with the sidebar on the right):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S_III
RAM (also called memory): 1 or 2 GB depending on the version
Flash storage (also called storage): 16 or 32 GB
Poisednoise
macrumors regular
It's not "so difficult", I already acknowledged that you were right about this. I merely was pointing out that your statement "Look up the tech specs for any smartphone and you will find a number for RAM and a number for flash" was wide of the mark, as the published tech specs by the manufacturers of two of the most popular phones at present make no mention of the working memory. I pointed this out, not to cast doubt on your assertion that it existed, but merely to go some way towards explaining why there might have been some confusion in the minds of myself and others. I hope that clears things up for you: it was never my intention to take up more space with what was after all a silly side-argument that has nothing to do with the main thread.
Yawn.
This entire "controversy" was nothing more then a cheap stunt to get page views. I can honestly say that I'm certain the majority of people don't care about this at all.
This entire "controversy" was nothing more then a cheap stunt to get page views. I can honestly say that I'm certain the majority of people don't care about this at all.
I still don't understand why the fact that there are no published official RAM numbers, could be mistaken as if there were no RAM at all. Just because an internal combustion engine is sold without stating its displacement (or maximum rpm) does not mean it has no displacement or max. rpm.
You're understanding is severely lacking. Just because something is solid state doesn't mean it's ram. RAM is volatile - as soon as the power is cut, the data is gone. It is simply used to store data that the programs need. The advantage of ram is that it is extremely low latency and fast. Every smart phone has some ram - the iPhone 4 and 4S have 512MB for example.
Solid state drives are flash memory; typically MLC or SLC NAND memory. They are non-volatile; power is not required to retai. The data. They are fast compared to traditional hard drives, but still much slower than RAM. Each cell also has limited write cycles, so eventually the drives will fail.
Who cares.
Well, I'm a loyal Apple fan who says "screw EPEAT!" I'll purposely buy products that do not label their products as "green", just because I'm sick and tired of hearing about all this global warming bunk that has been demystified years ago but is still costing our country tons of money to chase this ghost! It's all just a bunch of marketing hype that doesn't mean anything, and I certainly don't mind speaking out against it.
Well, I'm a loyal Apple fan who says "screw EPEAT!" I'll purposely buy products that do not label their products as "green", just because I'm sick and tired of hearing about all this global warming bunk that has been demystified years ago but is still costing our country tons of money to chase this ghost! It's all just a bunch of marketing hype that doesn't mean anything, and I certainly don't mind speaking out against it.
MagnusVonMagnum
macrumors 603
If this keeps some Apple computers easier to disassemble (i.e. open by the user to upgrade, etc. as a side effect), it's a good thing. Apple is becoming far too user-unfriendly just to try and force upgrade/battery replacement sales, etc. That's not a direction I like at all for Apple. I don't want to go back to Windows machines (I still dislike using Windows, especially compared to Leopard/Snow Leopard which is all I still use with Macs), but it seems their "like iOS" attitude towards their primary computer lines keeps pushing in that direction.
So sad! ... Have you heard of 'climategate' ... Look it up, it's like Nixon except on a global scale and you're going to pay more for good and tax for it.. sheaple
kazmac
macrumors G4
these I would like
particularly the latter two suggestions. I really hope they back pedal on the glued-in battery though. Why should the Apple tech possibly muck up something else switching out the battery?
particularly the latter two suggestions. I really hope they back pedal on the glued-in battery though. Why should the Apple tech possibly muck up something else switching out the battery?
Poisednoise
macrumors regular
Feel free to look it up yourself: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18885500
Anyone using "Climategate" as an excuse to deny climate change is sorely deluded.