Apple Blocks Adobe's Flash-to-iPhone Compiler in Latest SDK Agreement

[PeterQVenkman]

Adobe actually employs people to be evangelists. Does Apple currently?

Adobe has evangelists, but Steve Jobs is Apple's pope. The difference? Steve is better at it.

 

[whooleytoo]

But we digress. The topic is of course whether Apple should allow lazy developers to use Flash instead of the native language and API's to produce software for Apple's platform. And on that, I'm with Apple.
Apple has plenty of iPhone/iPad developers without needing to lure in those people that don't have the brain/time to learn the language and set of API's that were designed specifically for the platform.

What you call "lazy" I call "smart".

Why should a developer throw all their work away and start again? If they can use their existing work, why not do so?

 

[Earendil]

Yeah, I'm going to have to go ahead and take exception to that. It reminds me of when I first started in web development with an early version of Frontpage,and took a lot of Flak from the "veteran" html hand-coders. Despite their techhie objectives, I created websites and they worked just fine. I can see where they were coming from - they worked hard at learning the code, and people come along with a visual tool and do the same thing with a fraction of the experience in a fraction of the time. Oh well!

That doesn't mean that they didn't have a point - many objections were valid, but for the most part, it wasn't the end of the world. That also didn't mean I was lazy either - I was just taking advantage of the resources available and worked hard just the same.

So now comes Flash CS5 with the ability to export to the native iPhone OS format. What's wrong with that? Nothing. If I can use a program that I know and am good at to do something, why learn another to do the same thing? One doesn't require more "effort" than the other to learn, or use. Do or will these apps really wreak havoc on your iPhone? I doubt it. In fact, there are apps in the app store right now that were created this way. Or at least there were, I don't know if they've been taken down or not.

I haven't heard a solid reason why this method for writing iPhone apps is inherently bad. Just vague things like, sometimes compilers can do this, and sometimes bad code can sneak in, and we want to ensure a set of quality standards, blah blah blah.

And what about all the apps now that have been created with the Apple SDK? Maybe it's me but I've never seen so many updates and bug fixes to programs ever. Even with software companies that are usually pretty good about things like that. Could it be that Flash created apps would actually end up being better - in both presentation and experience, and reliability and stability?

I don't think your analogy applies here. You are talking about a transition from one set of old acceptable tools, to a brand new set of acceptable tools. In your case, the only people who thought what you were doing was a bad idea was fellow developers.

In the Apple scenario, xCode is THE OSX IDE. It is not old, it is not archaic. It's certainly not the "old way" of doing things. Nor is Flash some brilliant to way to code.

Here is your solid reason, for which you do not need to accept or believe. But it's a good argument.

John grubber paraphrasing Steve Cheney.
In that scenario, Flash would quickly become the "old technology" trying to play catchup with the new and improved version of xCode and the set of iPhone APIs.

 

[Earendil]

What you call "lazy" I call "smart".

Why should a developer throw all their work away and start again? If they can use their existing work, why not do so?

See here:
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/04/14/keeping-the-platform-nimble

It can be smart, and it can be stupid. Also, no (good) developer has the expectation/illusion that their set of language skills and API knowledge will always be relevant, and will always apply to the next platform.

I know the C# world, and am learning Objective C and Apple's APIs. I wouldn't consider demanding the ability to use a C# cross compiler as "smart" per-say.

Certainly there are exceptions, but IMHO Flash isn't one of them.

 

[Earendil]

assuming all Flash developers are "lazy" and only use timeline animation is like assuming all Objective-C programers only use Interface Builder.

you might want to read up on ActionScript 3.0 and the Flex SDK.

No, you missed where I was pointing "lazy". People who use Flash are not lazy. People who demand that their current set of language and API knowledge should be good enough for the next big platform, and demand that someone make them an IDE to keep their skills "current" is lazy.

That is not to say that ever developer who uses a cross platform/language tool is lazy. Laziness comes with the unwillingness to learn, which in the software dev field is a perquisite for anyone worth their salt.

 

[whooleytoo]

See here:
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/04/14/keeping-the-platform-nimble

It can be smart, and it can be stupid. Also, no (good) developer has the expectation/illusion that their set of language skills and API knowledge will always be relevant, and will always apply to the next platform.

That article does raise fair points. But at the same time, it's a great argument against ANY cross-platform standards! "If you do things the Apple way, instead of the cross-platform way, it makes the platform a lot more mobile/nimble".

The problem here is - Flash developers' language/API skills ARE relevant on the new (i-device) platform; if Apple approves the Adobe compiler. Devs could take their existing Flash apps & games and add the touch-screen features in the upcoming versions of Flash to make it more suitable for the platform.

I know the C# world, and am learning Objective C and Apple's APIs. I wouldn't consider demanding the ability to use a C# cross compiler as "smart" per-say.

Certainly there are exceptions, but IMHO Flash isn't one of them.

No one is asking Apple to provide anything for them, simply asking them not to be a hindrance.

Why not just allow the Adobe compiler, and then block any Flash iPhone app which isn't up to standard? That way, everyone wins.

- Flash developers can target a new, exciting platform.
- End-users get more choice, and no lessening of quality.
- Apple has more apps available on its platform.

 

[BaldiMac]

Why not just allow the Adobe compiler, and then block any Flash iPhone app which isn't up to standard? That way, everyone wins.

Everyone may win in the short term, but the point of keeping the platform nimble is the long term. What if Adobe does a phenomenal job with CS5 to support OS 4.0? A number of popular apps come out that become killer apps for the platform. Everybody is winning.

But Adobe is on an 18 month development cycle for the Creative Suite. Apple is on a 12 month cycle for iPhone OS. What if Apple wants to change architectures or introduce new features in OS 5.0 that require a significant re-engineering of Adobe's tools. Adobe claims to be too late in development of CS 6 to support all of the new features.

Six months after OS 5.0 is released, those killer apps developed with Adobe tools are finally updated for OS 5.1. But they only have limited support for a key new feature. Everybody is losing. And the timing may only get worse.

Of course, Adobe may do a fantastic job keeping current with iPhone OS support. There would be a necessary delay, but they may keep it down to a couple months. Is that worth it? And more importantly, if you were Apple, would you bet the future of your platform on Adobe?

 

[AidenShaw]

Of course, Adobe may do a fantastic job keeping current with iPhone OS support. There would be a necessary delay, but they may keep it down to a couple months. Is that worth it? And more importantly, if you were Apple, would you bet the future of your platform on Adobe?

If Adobe used a plugin model (look at Photoshop) with the Flash to IPA suite, updates could be done easily. Apple adds an API, Adobe adds the API to the plugins, app builders tweak the flash, rebuild, and resubmit the IPA to the app store.

Technical problem solved.

 

[DMann]

Everyone may win in the short term, but the point of keeping the platform nimble is the long term. What if Adobe does a phenomenal job with CS5 to support OS 4.0? A number of popular apps come out that become killer apps for the platform. Everybody is winning.

But Adobe is on an 18 month development cycle for the Creative Suite. Apple is on a 12 month cycle for iPhone OS. What if Apple wants to change architectures or introduce new features in OS 5.0 that require a significant re-engineering of Adobe's tools. Adobe claims to be too late in development of CS 6 to support all of the new features.

Six months after OS 5.0 is released, those killer apps developed with Adobe tools are finally updated for OS 5.1. But they only have limited support for a key new feature. Everybody is losing. And the timing may only get worse.

Of course, Adobe may do a fantastic job keeping current with iPhone OS support. There would be a necessary delay, but they may keep it down to a couple months. Is that worth it? And more importantly, if you were Apple, would you bet the future of your platform on Adobe?

Absolutely not.

Betting one's future on the reliability of another company is a risk not worth taking.

Who would ever have imagined that a reputable company, such as IBM, would have been capable of flaking out the way they did, with the under-production of non-server PPCs?

It seems better, and more sensible, to reduce potential complications, if at all possible.

Apple's purchase of P.A. Semi seems to have followed this line of thought.

Since Adobe Flash was never stellar to begin with, based on their track record, why would we expect anything outside of the realm of 'more of the same?'

 

[AidenShaw]

Betting one's future on the reliability of another company is a risk not worth taking.

I think that's overstating the issue a bit, considering that we're only thinking of "some apps" in the app store, not the "future of the Apple phone platform".

I would hope that as Apple extends the APIs, it's done in an upwardly compatible fashion. If an app needs the backgrounding functions, that app will need to be updated to call the new APIs.

Any app that doesn't need them, will continue to work as it always has. (The alternative is that all apps have to be rewritten for each new phone OS version - not very likely.) The Adobe Flash->IPA apps will be just some of the hundreds of thousands of apps.

If Flash->IPA apps in general suck, then Adobe's tool won't get much use - developers who want to shine on the Apple phone platform will go native.

I just don't buy the idea that every app has to be updated for all the new APIs at every release, otherwise the platform will be crippled.

 

[DMann]

The Adobe Flash->IPA apps will be just some of the hundreds of thousands of apps.

If Flash->IPA apps in general suck, then Adobe's tool won't get much use - developers who want to shine on the Apple phone platform will go native.

True, however, if Flash->IPA apps do suck, and Adobe's tool gets utilized anyway, this would likely amount to more potential headaches to have to deal with.

Surely, Android, WMS7, WebOS, etc. will be offering Adobe ample and sufficient opportunity to demonstrate its strengths on those platforms.

 

[AidenShaw]

True, however, if Flash->IPA apps do suck, and Adobe's tool gets utilized anyway, this would likely amount to more potential headaches to have to deal with.

Don't you think that sucky apps will self-eliminate?

Reminds me of the old doctor joke:

Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do that.
Doctor: Then don't do that.

I'd think the majority of people would notice that the Iphone misbehaves when they run X, and will stop running X.

Apple's banning the tool for Adobe tool for control reasons, not technical reasons.

 

[DMann]

Don't you think that sucky apps will self-eliminate?

I'd think the majority of people would notice that the Iphone misbehaves when they run X, and will stop running X.

Or, people will run the sucky apps, experience performance issues, and then tend to blame the iPhone for said performance issues.

This, in turn, would create an additional burden for customer care, staff, etc.

Apple's banning the tool for Adobe tool for control reasons, not technical reasons.

It might also be for reasons pertaining to both.

 

[Battagline]

Compile Flash for Iphone

You can also compile flash applications so they run native to the iphone. The process in't simple, but it's listed right here:
Compile Flash for Iphone