Apple CEO Tim Cook: 'I Don't Think a Four-Year Degree is Necessary to Be Proficient at Coding'

[Wanted797]

I didn't really learn much about the content while I was at university. But it sure as hell made me grow up and learn how to communicate and work in a team.

In the work place you can tell the difference between those that have studied and those that have not.

 

[Zxxv]

Lines of coders like the lines of clothes sewers from the past all chasing down rouge code in real time. I see the future. All paid peanuts for long strenuous hours.

Come work for apple today.

 

[brenton289]

That's what separates coders from engineers and architects.

 

[cube]

There are no four-year degrees in coding or even programming.

 

[Zxxv]

Running Tims words through Siri translate gets -

If it’s easy to learn it’s even easier to pay them peanuts.

 

[badatusernames]

Why do you think Apple requires a degree? Instead of guessing/making stuff up/cherry picking, a Google search can be helpful.

Apple HR couldn’t care less if you have a college degree

Of course certain positions are best filled with advanced or even four-year degree holders, including management positions. But to say a four-year degree is required to work at Apple is absolutely untrue.

From that article:



I spent a few minutes on Apple’s website.

https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?location=United-States-USA&team=Core-Operating-Systems-SFTWR-COS

There are currently 165 open positions in the core OS software group (areas of work include Kernel, Networking, File Systems, Sensors, and Transports). Here are five:

https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/details/200049191/ai-solutions-architect?team=SFTWR
Masters in Computer Science/Engineering/Mathematics or equivalent experience

https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/details/200058976/accessibility-software-engineer-hearing?team=SFTWR
Bachelor of Science in Computer Science, or equivalent experience.

https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/details/200004357/build-engineer?team=SFTWR
Bachelors, Masters, or equivalent experience in Computer Science

https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/details/200056682/senior-platform-bring-up-engineer?team=SFTWR
MS (preferred) or BS in Computer Science, Computer Engineering or equivalent experience/skills

https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/details/200040499/ios-engineer-ad-platforms?team=SFTWR
Bachelors Degree or equivalent experience.

Those were five of the first eight positions. The other three didn’t have “or equivalent experience” so I assume those positions in fact require degrees; not at all surprising, given the roles:

• GPU Systems Engineer, Platform Architecture

• Research/Machine Learning Engineer, Apple Media Products Analytics

• Software Engineering Manager - Mobile Diagnostics Team

Thanks! I stand correct

 

[cube]

Bill and Zuck dropped out.

 

[JamesMay82]

I tried to get a job at Apple corporate on the sales team and the requirements are a minimum degree level education. Which is funny considering it was founded by a college drop out..

I think college is overrated unless you want to be doctors, lawyers, engineers etc all other jobs in business can learned on the job with a basic high school education

 

[gabe007]

It's funny how people spent a lot of money on a degree and now they're complaining here because some of us without degrees are making more money than them. You don't need a degree to be good at something, chill!

 

[Coconut Bean]

The reason for these postings is when employers like McDonalds or even Apple themselves list "fancy chef school" in their job requirements, despite what Tim says.

Yeah. Well, Apple can do it, because it's Apple. They could probably employ graduates at the cafeteria if they wanted to, same applies for Google.

 

[Scooz]

Surely there are great CEOs without business degrees; I’ve worked for a couple. But Cook’s MBA from Duke probably gives him some skills, knowledge and insight he otherwise might not have.

That‘s the reflected insight that Tim Cook‘s own comment one the topic of education is missing.

 

[cube]

Bill Gates thinks it is better to finish university for most people. He dropped out after 3 years because he was afraid of missing out on the computer revolution.

 

[Hank Carter]

Yeah, well Tim also believes that an iPad is the equivalent of a Mac or PC.

 

[8281]

I for one appreciate his statement. Degrees for most technical, high paying jobs are worthless. I’ll hire experience over education any day, when it comes to IT positions.

I do wish the American society would take more interest into educating trades vs degrees.

An MD is worthless now? Would you hire a lawyer without a JD? What about all the chemists in biotech? You want someone without an engineering degree building the bridges you drive on? Broadly dismissing higher ed isn’t useful, but I agree that the trades should be valued more.[/QUOTE]
[doublepost=1557579058][/doublepost]

While a four year degree may not be necessary for coding, or really most jobs for that matter, Apple and most companies insist on making sure to hire those who are burdened by crippling debt, mainly in the form of student loans. It’s a fantastic strategy for hiring people who desperately need to make their payments, allowing companies to exploit and underpay them.

Careful, Tim. If the industry figures out this big secret that everyone already knows, people might have to start getting paid enough to live a prosperous life *and* educational institutions might have less demand for Apple products!

I think the average amount of debt held by students is around $30,000. While not exactly great, I’m not sure I would call that crippling. Certainly there are people with much more debt.

 

[Brady9991]

It looks like his son lol

 

[BenTrovato]

Tim makes a valid point... A lot of salty comments in here

 

[PickUrPoison]

An MD is worthless now? Would you hire a lawyer without a JD? What about all the chemists in biotech? You want someone without an engineering degree building the bridges you drive on? Broadly dismissing higher ed isn’t useful, but I agree that the trades should be valued more.

Doctors, attorneys, chemists and structural engineers aren’t IT jobs.

OP said: “Degrees for most technical, high paying jobs are worthless. I’ll hire experience over education any day, when it comes to IT positions.”

 

[cube]

Doctors, attorneys, chemists and structural engineers aren’t IT jobs.

OP said: “Degrees for most technical, high paying jobs are worthless. I’ll hire experience over education any day, when it comes to IT positions.”

Do you know that software runs nuclear power stations and radiation therapy, for example?

The Java license does not allow using it to run a nuclear facility.

Degrees are not worthless. But experience can replace a degree sometimes.

 

[ipponrg]

What I heard him say was that many years of education in developing software, including from ages 15-18, can make someone proficient at coding.

That’s probably why many software development positions at Apple do t require formal degrees

He is absolutely right that a degree is not required to be coding. It’s why like you said there is a “or equivalent experience” in the job description

However I don’t think he should downplay college education for coders. Like musicians and liberal arts, for every successful coder without a degree, there are more struggling ones

 

[cs02rm0]

Has anyone ever taken a degree in "proficient coding"?

I wish Tim would just figure out how to undo the screw ups in the MBP and maybe how to offer us some decent displays.

 

[PickUrPoison]

That‘s the reflected insight that Tim Cook‘s own comment [on] the topic of education is missing.

Did you read the article or just the headline? Because Cook has quite a bit more to say on the topic of education and coding than just that a college degree isn’t a requirement:

"I don't think a four year degree is necessary to be proficient at coding" says Cook. "I think that's an old, traditional view. What we found out is that if we can get coding in in the early grades and have a progression of difficulty over the tenure of somebody's high school years, by the time you graduate kids like Liam, as an example of this, they're already writing apps that could be put on the App Store."

What I heard him say was that many years of education in developing software, including from ages 15-18, can make someone proficient at coding.

That’s probably why many software development positions at Apple don’t require degrees.

re: the educational requirements for a CEO of a Fortune 500 corporation, I’m reasonably confident that if you asked Cook what his recommendation for education would be for that position, his advice would include an MBA—and probably from one of the top schools. But I’m guessing all 500 of those current CEOs do not all have MBAs. (But that’s just a guess; proof left as an exercise for the reader )

 

[cube]

Has anyone ever taken a degree in "proficient coding"?

I guess you could take a coding course when coder was a job title.

Universities did not use to teach secure coding, but you can read books on that.

 

[NachoGrande]

I don't think I use one thing that I learned 22 years ago in college... so yes it's kind of a dumb requirement for most companies. When I hire new engineers we use it just as a way to filter through resumes. I don't care what college they went to.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Do you know that software runs nuclear power stations and radiation therapy, for example?

Degrees are not worthless. But experience can replace a degree sometimes.

Quite aware, but I’ll give you the credit of assuming you’re aware that most =/= all.

I actually brought up three examples of positions that required a degree even at Apple (for platform architect systems engineer, AI research and engineering management positions) in my post #150 above on the very issue of degree required/not required:

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/27352649/

I specifically discuss Apple requiring MS/PhD degrees for certain jobs (though for many “equivalent experience” is sufficient).

 

[scrapesleon]

What you don’t say