Apple CEO Tim Cook: Sideloading Apps Would 'Destroy the Security' of the iPhone

[Khedron]

eSIMS is all hardware and infrastructure software implementation and in NO way increases costs to end users - where on earth are you coming up with the junk FUD from?!!

I click on Settings. Then I click on Mobile Data. Then it shows me that eSIM providers are willing to sell me 5GB of data for £28 (valid for 30 days). And that's the best offer (it goes up to £6.39 PER DAY).

Then I click on my non-eSIM provider and I can get 10 GB of data (valid for 30 days) for £10, which also includes national and international phone calls.

So I was being very generous to Apple saying they would charge 3 times as much. Even now with competition their eSIM rates are 6 times the normal rate. Probably it would be closer to 9 times if I had no option to install a physical SIM.

 

[Mousse]

Duh. You seem To not have feeling following the rebuttal I was in just jumped in and taking a quote out of context.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That reply was to KermitF's comment about the only way to turn off sideloading would require a factory reset. I welcome any rebuttal your implication that sideloading is akin to rooting or leads to rooting. Pray tell, how is sideloading anyway related to rooting?

 

[johnalan]

I highly doubt that all devs would move to Linux. Professional developers won't...the commercial opportunities are not as lucrative as they are for MacOS. Hobbyists who are interested in those things are mostly already over on Linux.

You’re right. When I said devs what I really meant was savvy/power users.

I agree people would still create apps for a gimped macOS. It would likely still be lucrative.

 

[DeepIn2U]

I click on Settings. Then I click on Mobile Data. Then it shows me that eSIM providers are willing to sell me 5GB of data for £28 (valid for 30 days). And that's the best offer (it goes up to £6.39 PER DAY).

Then I click on my non-eSIM provider and I can get 10 GB of data (valid for 30 days) for £10, which also includes national and international phone calls.

So I was being very generous to Apple saying they would charge 3 times as much. Even now with competition their eSIM rates are 6 times the normal rate. Probably it would be closer to 9 times if I had no option to install a physical SIM.

Why on earth are you looking in Settings for pricing? Lol.
That is matched only to your current plan based on your SIM card and account with your current carrier. Taking what you’re seeing a basic standard across the board offer for your current plan is NOT the norm across carriers or a global offering or based on loyalty to avoid churn.

Better to contact your carrier, especially if you’ve been with them for a few years, loyalty always trumps ’standard’ offers like what you’re seeing.

- I highly doubt the eSIM pricing in settings for your carrier is going up ‘dialy’ - until you can show screenshots for the same carrier for 5 days I think you’re over exaggerating. In case you’re not I would report it to the governing body.

Call your carrier and competitors that offer reliable service were you are and need. Good luck.

 

[Khedron]

Why on earth are you looking in Settings for pricing? Lol.
That is matched only to your current plan based on your SIM card and account with your current carrier. Taking what you’re seeing a basic standard across the board offer for your current plan is NOT the norm across carriers or a global offering or based on loyalty to avoid churn.

Better to contact your carrier, especially if you’ve been with them for a few years, loyalty always trumps ’standard’ offers like what you’re seeing.

- I highly doubt the eSIM pricing in settings for your carrier is going up ‘dialy’ - until you can show screenshots for the same carrier for 5 days I think you’re over exaggerating. In case you’re not I would report it to the governing body.

Call your carrier and competitors that offer reliable service were you are and need. Good luck.

I didn’t say it goes up daily I gave the price for a one day subscription.

The prices in Settings are nothing to do with my carrier they are the eSIM contracts offered by companies that partner with Apple.

I compared the eSIM 30-day contract with a physical SIM 30-day pay as you go contract so loyalty is irrelevant.

 

[DeepIn2U]

I didn’t say it goes up daily I gave the price for a one day subscription.

The prices in Settings are nothing to do with my carrier they are the eSIM contracts offered by companies that partner with Apple.

I compared the eSIM 30-day contract with a physical SIM 30-day pay as you go contract so loyalty is irrelevant.

When you said …

And that's the best offer (it goes up to £6.39 PER DAY)

to me the words ‘it goes up <monetary value> per day” means each day or daily but I guess I miss-understand the price per day vs going up daily.

You’re comparing 30 days contract, so yeah pricing would be different than a contract. I’m in a different country than you are and we have contracts here as a standard, while pay-go or month to month differs.

 

[akash.nu]

I didn’t say it goes up daily I gave the price for a one day subscription.

The prices in Settings are nothing to do with my carrier they are the eSIM contracts offered by companies that partner with Apple.

I compared the eSIM 30-day contract with a physical SIM 30-day pay as you go contract so loyalty is irrelevant.

Clearly you have no idea what eSIMs are about.

If I may shade some light here. The pricing for eSim is set by the service provider and this phenomenon that you’re talking about in terms of overpriced data plans is not a norm across the globe.

In the U.K. for example, we don’t see anything like that. The prices for plans, be it on a physical SIM card or an eSim, are identical.

The only caveat to this is that smaller service providers may not support eSim, which is a different issue.

 

[bluecoast]

I'm for competition also. Let another company do what google, facebook and Apple did. The three mentioned all started from humble beginnings. There is no law stopping any company from developing killer, innovative products, bringing them to market and then going public.

To enable competition by breaking up companies that literally started from nothing is just wrong.

I think the issue is analogous to why Standard Oil was broken up in the USA 100 years ago (not that I’m accusing Apple etc of doing anything illegal).

Sometimes companies get so big that they distort key important markets.

I think that this has happened here.

I’ve used Macs from the early 90s on and off, bought my first iPod in 2003 and my first Mac in 2005. I’m not about to buy anything else anytime soon.

It’s been exciting watching Apple is an innovating underdog outmanoeuvre its competitors & from 2007 to 2015 the dream happened: the company with the best tech, best design & the best UX became the biggest company in the world. It’s awe inspiring what Apple has achieved.

But I think the quarterly investor call back in 2015-2016 where Cook stated that Services are important to them, is where something malign started to creep into Apple.

It feels like the upstart has become the sort of bully that they railed against 20 years ago.

Cook always goes on about Apple having a ‘North Star’ that guides it.

Well it feels like that’s obscured by clouds and they’re veering off trail.

 

[quarkysg]

I think the issue is analogous to why Standard Oil was broken up in the USA 100 years ago (not that I’m accusing Apple etc of doing anything illegal).

Sometimes companies get so big that they distort key important markets.

I think that this has happened here.

I’ve used Macs from the early 90s on and off, bought my first iPod in 2003 and my first Mac in 2005. I’m not about to buy anything else anytime soon.

It’s been exciting watching Apple is an innovating underdog outmanoeuvre its competitors & from 2007 to 2015 the dream happened: the company with the best tech, best design & the best UX became the biggest company in the world. It’s awe inspiring what Apple has achieved.

But I think the quarterly investor call back in 2015-2016 where Cook stated that Services are important to them, is where something malign started to creep into Apple.

It feels like the upstart has become the sort of bully that they railed against 20 years ago.

Cook always goes on about Apple having a ‘North Star’ that guides it.

Well it feels like that’s obscured by clouds and they’re veering off trail.

Other than Apple making boatloads of money, I don't see anything changed fundamentally for them. iOS App Store fees are still the same, with minor adjustment since then. Developer rules did not change much, from what I can read. I cannot correlate why there's so much hate nowadays.

 

[bluecoast]

Other than Apple making boatloads of money, I don't see anything changed fundamentally for them. iOS App Store fees are still the same, with minor adjustment since then. Developer rules did not change much, from what I can read. I cannot correlate why there's so much hate nowadays.

I think it’s a matter of scale. Generally costs/fees come down when markets grow to larger sizes and are functioning correctly with proper competition.

Why doesn’t visa or MasterCard charge 30/15% per transaction for example?

Also, most important inventions/innovation in society gradually become ‘commodities’.

For example, the Thomas Edison company isn’t still sole supplier of electricity in the USA, I believe - even though TE’s innovations at the time, were incredible.

The iPhone was - is - incredible, but Apple can’t keep on indefinitely milking it. It’s become so important to digital life in general, that Apple can no longer act as the sole arbiter as to its business model.

This happens again and again with big successful companies. Again, it’s not punishing success - it’s simply that they’re so big and so important that gets have to balance their presence in their market.

Tonally, also I think that Apple’s attitude seems to be to its developers - you need us, you should be lucky to come along for the ride with this amazing thing that we’ve built, instead of acknowledging that third party software is really important to the majority of its users (I’m not a 3rd party dev nor do I know anyone who is)

I’m not trying to bash Apple exclusively - there’s obviously a conversation to be had about Google play, Xbox store etc.

At any rate - we’re just people talking on a forum.

Fact is, that there’s bills being discussed in the US Congress, right to repair bills in lots of US states.

Ditto the EU, many of its individual member states such as Germany, France etc.

Apple is going to have to capitulate here.

It’s task will be to work out a common approach in its primary (USA) & secondary markets (EU etc). Change is coming.

 

[TheSapient]

I fully disagree with this sentiment exuded by so many against Apple’s view about the App Store. While side loading is available on Android there are a LOT of caveats in doing so.

Enabling a root like account to do so opens up major security wholes within Android; there is a major reason it’s called “root”
- Mr. Robot Season 1 there is an episode where 1 executive, nafariously sneaks in a MicroSD card into an Android phone to circumvent root capabilities and extract data unbeknownst to the phone owner - when their not looking. Sure it’s a TV show but it actually highlights what is VERY capable - and now over an internet connection.
> many Android users whom claim ‘they know what the hell (not hail lol) their doing’ still run into ridiculous issues on their phone. Have look over at XDA Forums for all android phones
- so many loading ROMS getting screwed up always wanting to be hand-held through issues after ROM some apps or core services don’t work - native OEM apps will not run, bricking the phone. Heck we’ve seen this very early on with jailbreaking of iOS. Not to mention some custom ROMS don’t allow you to load the OEM rom back and you’re fubar’d when you need warranty from the manufacturer.

I'm trying to understand your argument here. What does rooting and installing custom ROMs have to do with the discussion of sideloading?

 

[I7guy]

[...]

The iPhone was - is - incredible, but Apple can’t keep on indefinitely milking it. It’s become so important to digital life in general, that Apple can no longer act as the sole arbiter as to its business model.
[...]

Apple knows it's business best and should be the sole arbiter of it's business model. Because Apple grew a business from nothing, it's reward shouldn't be government intervention to break the company apart...especially when there are competing models.

 

[DeepIn2U]

I'm trying to understand your argument here. What does rooting and installing custom ROMs have to do with the discussion of sideloading?

Not all Android phones can side load without rooting. I’m not just referring to recent Android 10+ phones.

 

[Admiralbison]

Good thing, then, there is a lot of different manufacturers of phones out there as to prevent an Apple monopoly.

Yeah and it’s all Android.

‘Japan is going with anti-trust on both Apple and Google because they have an effective duopoly.

think about it, we are living in a world where there really is only 2 phones people can only choose from (let alone be restricted to the platform and it’s one App Store) - Android and iPhone.

computers are different as they are more open (not to say Microsoft’s Windows is not a monopoly because it is and they have had anti-trust measures out against them before)
you are not restricted to one store where you have to get everything from there, you can for the most part install what you want from where you want.

e.g.

imagine hypothetically if Steam store (or GOG) was allowed on iOS AND you could purchase games directly from that store.

1. Users will now have access to a vast amount of AA-AAA games and Apple’s App Store all of a sudden doesn’t look so hot (not that I ever found it compelling)

2. Devs who don’t like Apple’s dealings now have another Avenue to sell their games like Steam (doesn’t mean it would be better, but it is another choice)

3. Apple will find they now have to actually compete - be it better treatment of devs, partners or and be more pro consumer in manner of choice,

 

[ian87w]

Or to Windows. Windows subsystem would look very enticing

Remember Windows 10S, where you can only install apps from the Windows Store? Microsoft backed down, but you know for sure that's their long term goal with UWP.

 

[ian87w]

I click on Settings. Then I click on Mobile Data. Then it shows me that eSIM providers are willing to sell me 5GB of data for £28 (valid for 30 days). And that's the best offer (it goes up to £6.39 PER DAY).

Then I click on my non-eSIM provider and I can get 10 GB of data (valid for 30 days) for £10, which also includes national and international phone calls.

So I was being very generous to Apple saying they would charge 3 times as much. Even now with competition their eSIM rates are 6 times the normal rate. Probably it would be closer to 9 times if I had no option to install a physical SIM.

I'm not sure how this is relevant. Pretty much most providers who provide eSIM that I know, the difference is only the SIM itself, whether it's physical or embedded. The plans are the same regardless. You are comparing two different providers with different rates and blame Apple for it? What's next, blaming BMW for the expensive fuel prices?

 

[ian87w]

If that's the case, then they should lock macOS down like iOS. People who don't want ultra security can go to Windows and Linux.

What do you think notarisation is for?
But obviously they cannot do it overnight as it will break compatibility with many apps.

As for Windows, did you forget about Windows 10S? Microsoft backed down, but the writing is on the wall with UWP, it's a matter of when, not if.

 

[I7guy]

Yeah and it’s all Android.

‘Japan is going with anti-trust on both Apple and Google because they have an effective duopoly.

think about it, we are living in a world where there really is only 2 phones people can only choose from (let alone be restricted to the platform and it’s one App Store) - Android and iPhone.

computers are different as they are more open (not to say Microsoft’s Windows is not a monopoly because it is and they have had anti-trust measures out against them before)
you are not restricted to one store where you have to get everything from there, you can for the most part install what you want from where you want.

e.g.

imagine hypothetically if Steam store (or GOG) was allowed on iOS AND you could purchase games directly from that store.

1. Users will now have access to a vast amount of AA-AAA games and Apple’s App Store all of a sudden doesn’t look so hot (not that I ever found it compelling)

2. Devs who don’t like Apple’s dealings now have another Avenue to sell their games like Steam (doesn’t mean it would be better, but it is another choice)

3. Apple will find they now have to actually compete - be it better treatment of devs, partners or and be more pro consumer in manner of choice,

Each android manufacturer can have their own App Store. It’s completely voluntary to join apples developers program. Apple thus already competes.

Competitors aren’t made by artificial government intervention.

 

[ian87w]

Yeah and it’s all Android.

‘Japan is going with anti-trust on both Apple and Google because they have an effective duopoly.

think about it, we are living in a world where there really is only 2 phones people can only choose from (let alone be restricted to the platform and it’s one App Store) - Android and iPhone.

computers are different as they are more open (not to say Microsoft’s Windows is not a monopoly because it is and they have had anti-trust measures out against them before)
you are not restricted to one store where you have to get everything from there, you can for the most part install what you want from where you want.

e.g.

imagine hypothetically if Steam store (or GOG) was allowed on iOS AND you could purchase games directly from that store.

1. Users will now have access to a vast amount of AA-AAA games and Apple’s App Store all of a sudden doesn’t look so hot (not that I ever found it compelling)

2. Devs who don’t like Apple’s dealings now have another Avenue to sell their games like Steam (doesn’t mean it would be better, but it is another choice)

3. Apple will find they now have to actually compete - be it better treatment of devs, partners or and be more pro consumer in manner of choice,

So let use Steam as the example. I like the steam app, but why should I only able to buy games that are sold by steam? Why can't another store sell their games within the Steam app? Do you see where this is going?

 

[bluecoast]

Apple knows it's business best and should be the sole arbiter of it's business model. Because Apple grew a business from nothing, it's reward shouldn't be government intervention to break the company apart...especially when there are competing models.

OK, that's a position, I guess.

I think the reality of living in a world where companies & the market fully dictate the terms of how they operate wouldn't be a pleasant one, as I'd take the position, that the market isn't as self-correcting as exponents of this position would lead us to believe.

As I've said before on this thread, it doesn't matter what we think as regulators around the world are looking at Apple.

When regulators in stable democracies are all taking a look at Apple with a negative eye, this isn't sour grapes or the tall poppy syndrome. This isn't like a populist leader taking an easy shot at a giant for short term positive headlines to appease their base.

It's because their size and their actions are starting to distort the market. Ditto Google with Android and Search.

 

[I7guy]

OK, that's a position, I guess.

I think the reality of living in a world where companies & the market fully dictate the terms of how they operate wouldn't be a pleasant one, as I'd take the position, that the market isn't as self-correcting as exponents of this position would lead us to believe.

As I've said before on this thread, it doesn't matter what we think as regulators around the world are looking at Apple.

When regulators in stable democracies are all taking a look at Apple with a negative eye, this isn't sour grapes or the tall poppy syndrome. This isn't like a populist leader taking an easy shot at a giant for short term positive headlines to appease their base.

It's because their size and their actions are starting to distort the market. Ditto Google with Android and Search.

Well that's a position also I guess. The government has clearly demonstrated it's knack to destroy businesses, imo. (I used the former AT&T as a good example of what didn't really end up being all that great for consumers). I don't buy the "distort the market". I see this as companies complaining they can't do whatever they want on Apple's ecosystem. (and they shouldn't and Apple should be the gatekeeper to it's products)

 

[LordVic]

Not all Android phones can side load without rooting. I’m not just referring to recent Android 10+ phones.

ALL android phones can be sideloaded without rooting

it's built into the android core OS functionality and you only have to enable "development mode" to do so. at no point does that involve Root, Rooting or circumventing /modification of the OS.

Don't talk about what you dont know

 

[TheSapient]

Not all Android phones can side load without rooting. I’m not just referring to recent Android 10+ phones.

I'm still not tracking your argument.
Rooting and installing custom ROMs is problematic, right? People who wanted to sideload in the past had to root their phones and install custom ROMs. Modern Android phones allow sideloading without rooting or installing custom ROMs.

So by allowing sideloading, Android reduced the motivation for rooting and installing custom ROMs, which is.....bad?

If Apple allows sideloading, there will be less interest in jailbreaking. Is that bad?

 

[TheSapient]

So let use Steam as the example. I like the steam app, but why should I only able to buy games that are sold by steam? Why can't another store sell their games within the Steam app? Do you see where this is going?

In fact, you DON"T have to only buy games that are sold by Steam. Isn't that the point? On the computer that *I* purchased, I can install and use Steam. I can install and use other stores too. I can buy my games from GOG. Or Epic. Or Microsoft. Or Humble. Or Target. Or Walmart. Or Amazon. Or any number of other stores and vendors. Better yet, I can shop between these stores to find the best pricing, the extra services that matter to me, etc. Why would I want the maker of my computer to be the sole portal to software for that machine?

The Witcher 3 - Game of the Year Addition is currently $50 on Steam. It is $10 on GOG. I'm not pro or anti Apple/Steam/GOG. I'm pro consumer, and especially pro-me. Competition allowed me to pay 1/5th the price for a game I wanted.

If other vendors were allowed on IOS, you'd have more choices. You'd have more pro-consumer pressure. You'd have better options at better prices.

 

[ian87w]

In fact, you DON"T have to only buy games that are sold by Steam. Isn't that the point? On the computer that *I* purchased, I can install and use Steam. I can install and use other stores too. I can buy my games from GOG. Or Epic. Or Microsoft. Or Humble. Or Target. Or Walmart. Or Amazon. Or any number of other stores and vendors. Better yet, I can shop between these stores to find the best pricing, the extra services that matter to me, etc. Why would I want the maker of my computer to be the sole portal to software for that machine?

The Witcher 3 - Game of the Year Addition is currently $50 on Steam. It is $10 on GOG. I'm not pro or anti Apple/Steam/GOG. I'm pro consumer, and especially pro-me. Competition allowed me to pay 1/5th the price for a game I wanted.

If other vendors were allowed on IOS, you'd have more choices. You'd have more pro-consumer pressure. You'd have better options at better prices.

See, that's the thing. You are not forced to use only iPhone. There are Android as an option, and they are offering more phones at better prices. Competition.