Apple 'Charts' Spreadsheet Application?

[slackersonly]

google has a free speadsheet program out recently and it is a good option for free consumer level apps.
my guess is that apple isnt ready to compete with office yet or may never want to compete directly with it. however, they do still need/like being able to offer it on mac so they have to tip toe when they launch charts, ie. consumer, and not a direct competitor with excel, etc.

 

[Demoman]

I find it funny how Microsoft is coming out with a competitor to the iPod and is including features in Vista that have already been in OS X for years... and everyone calls them a theif or a copycat for it. But when Apple comes out with an Excel wannabe, not a soul says that they're trying to cash in on someone else's idea. Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Apple - but it's true. There are so many fanboys out there that they can't see around the fact that Apple is just as guilty as MS when it comes to taking ideas.

You are promoting revisionist history. Apple had a spreadsheet before MS. Excel was a late arrival to the spreadsheet party. If you want to be educated in the truth of the matter - try this link:

http://www.bricklin.com/firstspreadsheetquestion.htm

The reason Excel got its' large market share was the same reason Word did. MS GAVE it away with new computers. Then they charged a very small price over an extended period of time. Good-bye Lotus, Good-bye Borland, Good-bye competition. Now we pay ~425 per user and we have no options. That my friend is the MS way.

A decent spreadsheet added to iWork is going to be a big selling point in the corporate world. iWork - $79 or Office $425, easy choice for me. The vast majority of users only use about 35-50% of the features in Excel or Word anyway.

 

[bob_hearn]

I don't suppose anyone else here remembers Spreadbase, from Objective Software, ca. 1993. Now that was an innovative spreadsheet program. Too bad it didn't catch on.

 

[EricNau]

If Apple is not developing this to compete with Excel, "Charts" isn't going to be good enough. Who would use Charts if there was a better option? ...That would be stupid.

If this is the case, Apple shouldn't bother at all.

 

[bob_hearn]

You are promoting revisionist history. Apple had a spreadsheet before MS. Excel was a late arrival to the spreadsheet party. ...
The reason Excel got its' large market share was the same reason Word did. MS GAVE it away with new computers. Then they charged a very small price over an extended period of time. Good-bye Lotus, Good-bye Borland, Good-bye competition. Now we pay ~425 per user and we have no options. That my friend is the MS way.

Now, that also sounds like revisionist history to me. I've never been a Windows user, but did Microsoft ever give away Excel or Word??? Doesn't sound like history as I remember it. In the pre-web days, the business model was simpler: you sell software to make money. Actually most software was much more expensive back then.

My experience, at least on the Mac side, was that Microsoft acquired its productivity software dominance the old-fashioned way, by never giving up, and lots of backroom dirty tricks and blackmailing of competitors.

 

[Avicdar]

I expect this will be about as well received as Pages.

Reach your own conclusion on that one. I have it and never use it. Its just too darn 'odd'.

 

[macnews]

If Apple is not developing this to compete with Excel, "Charts" isn't going to be good enough. Who would use Charts if there was a better option? ...That would be stupid.

Home users who don't want to spend $200-$300 on office just to get a word processor. If they can get pages, more home oriented and works with .doc and includes a spreadsheet that works with excel for $100 why not?

I do agree however, pages is a bit "odd" to work with as a word processor. It does newsletters nice, but what if I just want to type a paper? I have to claim ingnorance as I really have not played around engough to know better. Perhaps it will do a nice "paper" look, just feels odd.

 

[p0intblank]

More software from Apple? Okay in my book!

 

[skyle]

iWork = AppleWorks

Let me guess what's next: a database component (Filemaker Lite?). I suppose the drawing component and painting component from Appleworks will show up in iLife at some point. Uuh ... yawn.

 

[jcrowe]

If Apple is not developing this to compete with Excel, "Charts" isn't going to be good enough. Who would use Charts if there was a better option? ...That would be stupid.

If this is the case, Apple shouldn't bother at all.

People who want to use a spreadsheet for simple uses, which frankly represents most users. Excel certainly has more power than a large majority of users ever need and it represents the only useful part of Microsoft Office, IMO. However, it amounts to overkill and frankly, it's sort of not a big deal, even as "state of the art" in spreadsheets because spreadsheets' usefullness is overblown anyway. I was forced to use MS Office for years when I worked for a large computer manufacturer. Word was and remains an abomination, getting worse with every release. But Excel has its uses, though people tended to use it for more things that were really not particularly suitable for spreadsheet apps. That said, it should be interesting to see whether Apple's entry has better graphing functionality than Excel.

Respectfully,
The Devil

 

[heisetax]

No

Does anybody think that the full version of iWorks 07 will ship with all brand new Macs when it comes out?

I would say NO! Apple has just made a nice presentation program & a simple word processor & called it iWork. So far it seems just to put enough pressure on MS to get them to keep making a Mac version of Office. That being done for the next 5 years, iWork is now only there to bring in some extra money from those Apple die hards that buy anything Apple. A spreadsheet program would help sell a few more copies.

But then again spreadsheet programs are not liked or used by as many as they once were. The original VisCalc was a major player in helping give real business reasons for purchasing the Apple or Radio Shack Model 1 & 2.

Excel was MS's second or so spreadsheet program, the second for the Mac from them. It has always been better than any of the competition on the Mac. So after a while everyone stopped trying, including Apple. AppleWorks/ClairisWorks had a good enough spreadsheet module for the home & simple business user. The same has been done by many other companies. Even the better ones have not stayed around. Excel has been around for nearly 22 years & still no real competition for the very serious business user. I know that my income tax program would have to have great changes & features eliminated if I was to use a different spreadsheet program.

I have many old spreadsheet programs for my Mac. Time has shown that they for the most part have just been a waste of money & time. Because of the lack of any real competition for Excel on the Mac, upgrades were few & far between in the early years. These programs may have helped a little. We need a good push of competition on the business end against MS Excel. Most of the things that I do in my second quarter of Excel & Word training at schoold must be done with the Windows version. This is either because the Mac version either does not have that feature at all or the feature is so weak that it is not there for any but the simplist use.

Apple has the ability to give Excel some competition, but like most I believe that if they add either Numbers or Charts to the iWork group of programs, it will be a weak spreadsheet. Just look at Pages. Many thought that Apple would develope it into a much better program & give some competition with Word. Keynote seems to be the only program that Apples seems to be doing any work on.

Would I purchase iWork again if Apple added a spreadsheet program to the group, (suite seems to indicate more than there is or at least more effort than has been put into the programs), probably not. Apple has not had a good track record on anything other than their OS for staying the long fight. Then if you look at the OS, it has had a few major changes. So have they really stayed the course even on that one?

Bill the TaxMan

 

[w_parietti22]

Why doesnt apple bundel iWork with all new Macs? it would make so much more sense and would keep people from buying MS office.

edit: ok... someone already said that..

 

[EagerDragon]

Chart would be nice

That would be a fine addition, however I need something like Visio but with programability so that actions against the objects can be assigned some code to do something useful like calculate something, animate, etc. Also objects could be complex (contain other objects and act like containers). Think adding software to a computers, each simulated program can run and interact with others and are contained in the computer.

To give you an example... imagine diagraming the plumming of a house or bld, with sources and sinks, faucets, etc. You can calculate the flows and presures at different points and re-route the flows by closing and opening different valves. Imagine the tracks for a train service, same principle, route the trains to different rails by trowing switches, authomate the whole thing and use it for simulations. Great way to test ideas. Now convert it to a movie and burn your simulation movie with iDVD and give it to the customer.

Now that would be great!

Who wants to build it?

 

[~Shard~]

I think this "consumer-oriented" spreadsheet app could have some potential if Apple executes correctly. Excel is powerful, (my favorite app in the Office suite), yet overkill for many users. Heck, most users don't even know it's overkill for them because they are not even aware of the power of Excel!

So, perhaps Apple will do with Charts what they did with Pages - instead of giving the consumer a "bare" word processing app, they give you templates to work with. Perhaps in Charts, instead of plain-old spreadsheets, Apple will provide templates to address the average consumer's uses for spreadsheets and assist them in creating what it is that they require. Spreadsheet templates to help track monthly bill payments, templates for your kids' sports teams or fantasy football office pools, who knows... I know one thing with Excel, is that it takes a bit of work to maker a slick looking spreadsheet where you don't see the gridlines, the fonts are different, images are embedded, etc. - in other words, it doesn;t really look like a spreadsheet even though it is. Perhaps Apple will make this type of formatting easier with Charts.

Regardless, nice to see Apple fleshing out the iWork suite some more - I hope this does indeed happen as the rumor states.

 

[heisetax]

How much used?

You are promoting revisionist history. Apple had a spreadsheet before MS. Excel was a late arrival to the spreadsheet party. If you want to be educated in the truth of the matter - try this link:

http://www.bricklin.com/firstspreadsheetquestion.htm

The reason Excel got its' large market share was the same reason Word did. MS GAVE it away with new computers. Then they charged a very small price over an extended period of time. Good-bye Lotus, Good-bye Borland, Good-bye competition. Now we pay ~425 per user and we have no options. That my friend is the MS way.

A decent spreadsheet added to iWork is going to be a big selling point in the corporate world. iWork - $79 or Office $425, easy choice for me. The vast majority of users only use about 35-50% of the features in Excel or Word anyway.

I wonder if many users use even the lower of your 35-50% of what is in Word or Excel. I thought that I nknew a lot about Excel. That was before I wrote my ouw income tax prep program. Now I believe that my percentage of what Excel can do may be 10-15% if even that much. Before breaking the program into 50+ parts, it was over 15,000 lines long & 150-200 columns wide.

Bill the TaxMan

 

[chairguru22]

whats a "consumer oriented" spreadsheet app? i dont want to dumbed down excel. whats the point of that?

 

[Demoman]

Now, that also sounds like revisionist history to me. I've never been a Windows user, but did Microsoft ever give away Excel or Word??? Doesn't sound like history as I remember it. In the pre-web days, the business model was simpler: you sell software to make money. Actually most software was much more expensive back then.

My experience, at least on the Mac side, was that Microsoft acquired its productivity software dominance the old-fashioned way, by never giving up, and lots of backroom dirty tricks and blackmailing of competitors.

Bob,

I have been in Micros since 1982. My first IBM PC had a single 180K single density floppy and a whopping 64K of RAM. Over these 24 years, I have only worked for two companies and have done the vast majority of the purchasing. I know what I am talking about.

I do not remember exactly what year MS bundled Word and Excel and called it a Suite, probably 1990-1991. But when they did, almost all of my vendors and their competitors were offering the office suite free with their computers. I remember having a minor revolt with many of my users. They used Lotus 123, DBase IV, R:Rbase, Samba, Wordperfect, AmiPro, Quattro Pro, etc. I had to convince them that learning a new system made sense when we were getting it for free. Later, Office was not offered free, but it was priced about the same as buying a single copy of say Wordperfect.

This was a beautiful marketing strategy for MS. With reduced cash flow, Lotus Development, Ashton-Tate, Borland, Wordperfect, etc. did not have the resources for R&D. And this was also about the time Windows really started taking off. So, these vendors were late to the party with their window versions and many of their products suffered in design shortcuts and poor QC. On the opposite side, MS leveraged their incredible wealth to eventually become the only game in town. Game, Set, Match!

MS is a local company for me. I have many friends who still work there, but many retired in their early 40's. MS has done many clever things, but innovation is not real high on the list. I will tell you a short "locals only" story about what goes on in Redmond. One of MS's legal types wanted to have a 10-15 question TEST after the required reading of the software agreement. Unless the user passed the test, they could not install the software. We all owe someone a thanks for putting the axe to that one.

 

[heisetax]

Price comparison!

Home users who don't want to spend $200-$300 on office just to get a word processor. If they can get pages, more home oriented and works with .doc and includes a spreadsheet that works with excel for $100 why not?

I do agree however, pages is a bit "odd" to work with as a word processor. It does newsletters nice, but what if I just want to type a paper? I have to claim ingnorance as I really have not played around engough to know better. Perhaps it will do a nice "paper" look, just feels odd.

You leave a few things out of your price comparison: MS $200 & iWork $79. Many users can qualify for a $120-130 education version of Office. Even without that, Office only has an upgrade every 3-5 years. And with Office being more mature, many or most can skip an upgrade or two. iWork is years from being mature. For that reason most need to purchase each upgrade as they come out. That comes to $79/year. That would average at least $240 for a 3 year upgrade cycle. Or $320 to $400 for the 4-5 year cycle.

The above is without even comparing what one gets with MS Office or with Apple iWork. 4 mature programs compared to 2 infant programs. To me it seems that iWork looses again. I fell for the iWork 2005 trap, but did not fall for it in 2006. To me that is because Apple charges too much for too little.

The next revision of office will have a file format change to XML. This would be a great time for Apple to give iWork some real value by making Pages a real word processor & adding a real business level spreadsheet called something like Numbers/Charts Pro. But Apple has to mean it & stay the long term course. The time is here for Apple. So far there has been no indication that Apple will have a full featured word processor or even a mild mannered spreadsheet program.

Bill the TaxMan

 

[Doctor Q]

google has a free speadsheet program out recently and it is a good option for free consumer level apps.

It might yet be, but I wouldn't recommend it so far. I've been playing with it and it's still a little buggy, although they will probably work the kinks out.

whats a "consumer oriented" spreadsheet app? i dont want to dumbed down excel. whats the point of that?

For practical purposes, I'd define it as one that is cheap enough to bundle in with most/all Macs, as opposed to an Excel-killer that tries to compete head-to-head in features and price. I probably wouldn't want a dumbed down Excel either, because I spend so much time using Excel, but there are probably more people who would be only occasional users and could do with something simpler and cheaper than Excel but better than the anemic spreadsheet in Appleworks.

 

[Bradley W]

_

 

[Thataboy]

I really think iWork should be installed on new computers, just like iLife is. If you want to update to the next year version, you can buy a new computer, or pay the money.

If Apple really doesn't want to part with the huuuuge sales from the 913 copies of iWork they've sold , then why not give it away with a .mac subscription? It would push iWork saturation and very much increase .mac value and subscription rates.

 

[jaxstate]

The didnt invent spredsheets, but MS made it easy to access and pretty much prefected them with excel. Apple didn't invent MP3 players or Music downloads, but the get credit as if the did, becaue they made it mainstream.

Excuse me? Are you suggesting Microsoft invented the spreadsheet?? (Or, for that matter presentation software?)

In case you hadn't noticed, spreadsheets have been around for a long, long time. Apple itself had a spreadsheet component in the old AppleWorks, as well as in ClarisWorks (now the new AppleWorks). It is an obvious missing piece in iWork.

Naturally there will need to be a certain amount of Excel compatibility in any Apple spreadsheet offering; that simply reflects current market realities. But please tell me what is innovative about Excel, that you expect Apple to copy. Then please look again at the countless cases of Microsoft copying someone else's innovation, or in many cases buying and squashing it.

I too will be sticking with excel.

 

[Flowbee]

Why doesnt apple bundel iWork with all new Macs? it would make so much more sense and would keep people from buying MS office.

edit: ok... someone already said that..

I don't think Apple wants to stop people from buying MS Office... Apple wants MS to continue developing it. Lots of people wouldn't consider buying a Mac if it couldn't run Word or Excel. Office "Test Drive" comes installed on every new Mac.

I personally think iWork is just there so Apple has someting to offer in case MS pulls the plug on Office for Mac.

 

[steve_hill4]

In case you hadn't noticed, spreadsheets have been around for a long, long time. Apple itself had a spreadsheet component in the old AppleWorks, as well as in ClarisWorks (now the new AppleWorks). It is an obvious missing piece in iWork.

A Microsoft rep recently informed me that they are only offering Office for Mac for another 5 years for now because Apple are working on their own version. Firstly, they will need to make it as good as Office in terms of features and compatibility with office must be spot on and secondly at the current rate Apple are working, this looks unlikely. It will surely take more than 5 years to get to Office level. If we lost Office for Mac, it would be a blow for people requiring certain functions that iWork and OpenOffice.org don't have yet.

iWork does need to also add databasing, perhaps they could call that numbers or records. Then we can have a true successor to Appleworks or even Office.

 

[dukebound85]

I love excel. Unless Apple comes with a excel compatible, as powerful version, I will continue to get office. Just the fact that many places rely on excel spreadsheets and the things you can do with it make it indispensible to me