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Hold on: you're saying Intel will adopt 3nm chip next year?
I thought they were way behind <strike>Apple</strike> competition.
 
Wait, shouldn't this be a good thing? Freeing up TSMC capacity for everyone else?
Maybe they intended to purchase additional equipment from ASML for additional capacity and the Intel cancellation effects the planned schedule for their capital expenditures? I would think if they already had the equipment installed you would be correct.
 
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Funny stuff. Basically the original concern was that Intel was going to use all the 3nm production leaving Apple out in the cold and now the fear is that because Intel isn't going to use it that TSMC will not ramp up production since there won't be enough customers leaving Apple out in the cold....
Chipmaking depends hugely on economies of scale. TSMC was relying on 2023 orders from both Apple and Intel to pay for their planned level of 3nm manufacturing capacity. Car analogy: if you have one large and one smaller customer wanting limo rides, maybe you can afford to buy one new limo and cater for both of them. If the bigger one of those customers drops out, you can't buy 1/3 of a new Limo. Limos don't scale smoothly. Nor, I imagine, do 3nm chip production lines.

As @MayaUser pointed out - with 20:20 hindsight maybe Apple could have offered TSMC enough business to pay for their entire planned capacity - e.g. by moving more of the Apple Silicon range to 3nm sooner - but these things are planned long in advance and it sounds like the plan was to start with the relatively small volume M2 Pro because of the contention for manufacturing capacity. Apple can't turn on a dime and have the entire 3nm Apple Silicon range ready to roll at such short notice.

So did Intel do this on purpose to mess with Apple?
I think that's one for Hanlon's Razor. More likely, it's just Intel being short of cash:

 
So what's the argument against Apple buying TSMC? Apple goes from being dependent on Intel to being dependent on TSMC. Granted, Apple has much more control over chip design with TSMC, but still …
 
Intel is in the business of making lap warmers. They also occasionally function as laptops, but need to be used in short time periods in that manner. Their larger towers replace the heating system in office buildings. Cooling load requirements sky rocket.....
 
So what's the argument against Apple buying TSMC? Apple goes from being dependent on Intel to being dependent on TSMC. Granted, Apple has much more control over chip design with TSMC, but still …
TSMC is in Taiwan, which has very non zero odds of either being taken taken under Chinese control (with any factories they desire) or having their industry destroyed in a war with China. If they do, the US will almost certainly get involved, and the Chinese government will sieze all US assets in their country. It could be an absolutely enormous amount of money for what ends up coming to nothing.

Additionally, I'm not sure the Taiwanese government would allow the sale. It is THE defining industry of the country.

If Apple wanted chip production capacity of their own, better to take advantage of the CHIPS act and build it in the USA. Or, at least, get in bed with a chip maker not in a country that the Chinese have repeatedly stated that they're going to take over, by force if necessary.
 
People who defend Intel always say Intel is a great chip designer, they just haven’t caught up on fabrication. Now, it’s clear that they suck on everything.
Yup, this would have been an internal “everything’s fine!” right up until they forced the flawed chip to launch on the same schedule. Having to deal with an external company in public clearly shows that while they may have a desire, just like the 5G modem before it and the current mobile processors, they just can’t do performant, efficient and small. Well, they can NEVER do efficient, they can just sometimes do the others, but not in the same solution. :D

For anyone wondering, tGPU is “tile GPU”… which is iGPU, just take the dot, stretch it sideways and curve the bottom part. :) Supposedly, it being a separate part was meant to be a benefit because, unlike Apple, as they’re not forced to have it IN the CPU, so it can be made anywhere by anyone and be added to the common interposer. So, it’ll lack the performance benefits of sharing main memory, and, for anyone wanting one of these AND a decent GPU, that’s more valuable space taken on the MB.
 
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Intel reportedly planned to outsource production of its Meteor Lake tGPU chipset to TSMC, with mass production scheduled for the second half of 2022, before being delayed to the first half of 2023 due to design and verification issues. Now, Intel is said to have delayed mass production to the end of 2023, virtually cancelling the 3nm chip production capacity that it had booked with TSMC for most of next year.

Errr, All Intel's fault? TSMC isn't at high volume manufacturing (HVM) for N3 even if Intel wanted to be at mass productions. TSMC set a target of 2H22 for HVM , but they haven't hit it yet. Earlier they said they were going to recognize revenue from N3 until Q1 2023. That first shift to 1H 2023 probably has a TSMC component to it also.

Intel has design defect issues with the Sapphire Rapids so it is doubtful that Meteor Lake is bug free if there are any shared baseline features being shared across both ( e.g. , the tile-to-tile interconnect implementation , PCI-e/CXL features , etc. ). Or Intel has some major rework to do just on the graphics side.

This a bit of a the dual edged sword with tiles design across multiple process nodes. If one tile gets sidetracked than the whole package is delayed ( somewhat like mostly finished automobiles and trucks waiting on chips for a backup camera. )

The odd duck here is that why there isn't some discrete GPU part here to soak up at least some of that N3 capacity. If flip from making iGPU tiles to full dGPU would be an easy way to soak up wafers. Pointing at Meteor Lake and the CPU package may be off target. Intel original plan was to solely make iGPU tiles for all of 2023? Really? [ Without good drivers Intel may not want to make more expensive hardware faster. But that isn't a chip design and verification problem being pointed to by this article. ]


If Intel waits until end of 2023 they could possibly pick up TSMC N3E and just skip N3 all together. Which also might be a motivation. It is also odd they would be waiting untll the buzzsaw of close to max A17 production to jump into mass production.


It is not clear if the disruption at TSMC caused by Intel will impact Apple's 3nm chip production volume or schedule. The first 3nm chip from Apple is rumored to be the M2 Pro, debuting in the 14-inch MacBook Pro, 16-inch MacBook Pro, and a high-end Mac mini model.

If Intel has wafer starts they can't use they can certainly give/sell them to Apple. The questions more so is whether Apple would want to ramp any product faster. The M1 Pro/Max/Ultra Mac models all experienced launch bubble delays. If the M-series SoC played any role in that slowness ( although Apple always undercounts the launch bubble to create that 'scarcity' fanboy driver and minimize inventory costs. )

However, Apple also has its own multiple tile/chiplet dependency problem. IF they crank up N3 tiles production, but can't get more interposers, then the fancy packages can't be made any faster. If they can get all the parts this might bring the Mac Pro forward in time in terms of launching (e.g, earlier into the Spring). Apple couldn't soak up Intel entire wafer allotment, but some. There is also likely some other players waiting that Intel had outbid for wafer starts. It is just going to be harder for TSMC to count what the production will be because will have to aggregate more customers to find total demand.


Apple's AR/VR googles could be on N3 also. Could that ramp faster? Maybe.

I'm not sure why this is being partially spun as some "problem" for Apple. A huge block of wafers coming free means they can roll their stuff out faster if can keep up with the rest of the parts to the systems.
 
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Stupid analogy, but is that like enjoying an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend after a breakup but before they start dating again?

TMSC has to be outright livid though with all of that lost business/revenue and capacity, seemingly difficult to recover.
I agree, but Intel is still one of if not the largest chip customer and you don’t ignore someone that can bring that much business to your company. Even with the successes of the M1 and M2 processors how much market share does Apple now have? Lots of people still worry about Windows or Gaming compatibility and won’t look at Apple (or anyone else) if that brand of computers don’t have it. AMD still has mostly fully x86 compatible product line and has not fallen as far behind on chip die size design so I expect them to be the company that benefits the most, short term, because of this.

I would be surprised if Apple isn’t trying to get firm commitments from TMSC about not getting bumped off if they increase their orders for 3nm chips in the near term future. I think at this point Apple has proven to many potential customers that their ARM architecture works a LOT better than x86.
 
Hold on: you're saying Intel will adopt 3nm chip next year?
I thought they were way behind <strike>Apple</strike> competition.
I would think that most of the technology for making the individual components of the design on the 3nm process would be developed by TSMC and made available to all their customers through a PDK. If a company like Apple wants better performance for a specific component then they would design, model and simulate their own layout for that specific component. But most component layouts would just come from the foundry’s PDK.
 
I agree, but Intel is still one of if not the largest chip customer and you don’t ignore someone that can bring that much business to your company. Even with the successes of the M1 and M2 processors how much market share does Apple now have? Lots of people still worry about Windows or Gaming compatibility and won’t look at Apple (or anyone else) if that brand of computers don’t have it. AMD still has mostly fully x86 compatible product line and has not fallen as far behind on chip die size design so I expect them to be the company that benefits the most, short term, because of this.

I would be surprised if Apple isn’t trying to get firm commitments from TMSC about not getting bumped off if they increase their orders for 3nm chips in the near term future. I think at this point Apple has proven to many potential customers that their ARM architecture works a LOT better than x86.
Apple has majority marketshare in computers over $1000 (which is really the market they compete in).
 
Intel, where are the commercials? It’s been so quiet. Remind us again how much more revolutionary you are than Apple. Also isn’t this your one job.. imagine Apple still depending on Intel for them to be able to release new products.
 
Why would anyone say Apple should've stayed with Intel, outside of maybe compatibility with x86 for Boot Camp and VMs?
Because they are worried about compatibility with x86 for Boot Camp and VM’s. When it’s what you know, change can be very scary, especially for businesses that use computers but don’t know computers.
 
Intel finds another way to screw Apple.
Did you make the same complaints about Apple when it screwed the entire industry when they bought pretty much all NAND flash from Samsung during its iPod days which forced all other competitors to jack up their mp3 players?

Say what you want, but Apple's had a history of being a scumbag company as well.
 
Did you make the same complaints about Apple when it screwed the entire industry when they bought pretty much all NAND flash from Samsung during its iPod days which forced all other competitors to jack up their mp3 players?

Say what you want, but Apple's had a history of being a scumbag company as well.
I'm not sure Apple buying more semiconductors is the same as Intel reneging on their commitment to TSMC and buying less of them.
 
So did Intel do this on purpose to mess with Apple?

Highly likely not. This is going to cost them substantive amount of money in penalty costs. The extra costs for amortization that TSMC is talking about will be in part clawed back out of Intel's 'pockets'. It isn't money that is going to bankrupt Intel , but their margins are already down. Making it worse on purpose .... that is even more 'drama'.


Besides more N3 wafer starts being available doesn't 'hurt' Apple at all. Just means they can order up more stuff even easier than they planned. TSMC won't shrink capacity down lower than what Apple had signed up for. TSMC has to scrabble to find more customers to use the capacity. Apple can pick up as many wafer starts from Intel as they want (and have the cash to do it).

Intel shifting to the end of 2023 is awkward if want to stick with N3 because that is same time A17 is going to ramp. That's where Apple would be asking to fill more of available slots; not less. There were fewer "empty" slots out there anyway. There was a window before Apple got ramped on M-series and A-series product where Intel could jump in and get stuff produced without having to compete more heavily for wafer starts.


Intel really doesn't have much of a choice for getting their graphics business off the ground. They need tiles and discrete GPU chips in higher volume than they have fab capacity for. They just don't have enough EUV fab machines to do it. They don't have the necessary equipment, but didn't buy enough of the equipment that is doesn't come in rapid high volume. They spent more money on stock buybacks and dividends and some loopy multiple billion dollar acquisitions (financial hocus pocus).



It is so shortsighted that we allow something so critical to our nation to be manufactured over seas. Should be made in the USA.

"Allow" ? The whole Wall Street mentality of 'what have you do for me this quarter". Goose the stock with stock buybacks or we'll sue the company (greenmail). etc. is a major contributing cause. AMD spun out GlobalFoundaries in a funky way that they we not particularly viable and dropped out at the "7nm" stage. IBM paid GF to take their foundaries off their hands (while still running leading edge chip research at Watson labs. All 'R' and very little 'D' ... why? because it is cheaper. )

Apple doing any fundamental long term R&D ? Nope. Out borrowing double digit billions to pay dividends and stock buyback (and lower taxes ). when they have giant mountain of cash. (. Contrast with historical IBM Watson labs or ATT Bell labs ... where get stuff like the transistor. )
 
TSMC is in Taiwan, which has very non zero odds of either being taken taken under Chinese control (with any factories they desire) or having their industry destroyed in a war with China. If they do, the US will almost certainly get involved, and the Chinese government will sieze all US assets in their country. It could be an absolutely enormous amount of money for what ends up coming to nothing.

Additionally, I'm not sure the Taiwanese government would allow the sale. It is THE defining industry of the country.

If Apple wanted chip production capacity of their own, better to take advantage of the CHIPS act and build it in the USA. Or, at least, get in bed with a chip maker not in a country that the Chinese have repeatedly stated that they're going to take over, by force if necessary.
Well, these are very good arguments against Apple buying, or trying to buy, TSMC.
 
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