Apple Chip Supplier Hit by Intel Delay Ahead of 'A17 Bionic' Production in 2023

[pshufd]

Intel denies this rumor and claims meteor lake is on track for 2023.

In a message to the Verge:

“Thomas Hannaford clarifying to The Verge that not only are they untrue, but that Meteor Lake will actually ship, launch, and be available to consumers in 2023.”

Intel denies Meteor Lake is delayed to 2024, says chips will ‘launch’ in 2023

Just as planned.

www.theverge.com

It's up to Intel to prove that they can deliver after showing the world that they have had a lot of problems in this area for about 12 years. It personally doesn't matter to me though. I plan to use Apple Silicon until at least 2030 as I can see my M1 systems carrying me through quite some time.

 

[SFjohn]

Intel denies this rumor and claims meteor lake is on track for 2023.

In a message to the Verge:

“Thomas Hannaford clarifying to The Verge that not only are they untrue, but that Meteor Lake will actually ship, launch, and be available to consumers in 2023.”

Intel denies Meteor Lake is delayed to 2024, says chips will ‘launch’ in 2023

Just as planned.

www.theverge.com

Meteor Lake sounds like a place where old chips go to die… 😉

 

[falkon-engine]

It's up to Intel to prove that they can deliver after showing the world that they have had a lot of problems in this area for about 12 years. It personally doesn't matter to me though. I plan to use Apple Silicon until at least 2030 as I can see my M1 systems carrying me through quite some time.

Alder lake is decent, Raptor lake is coming soon later this year and should be even better. Zen 4 and Raptor lake will duke it out, and both will have much better single core and multi threading performance compared to apple silicon. For example, here is Raptor Lake’s leaked Geekbench score. Not even the mighty m1 ultra can do this.

Meteor lake is their first mcm chip for client and also their first chip manufactured using EUV.

Of course apple silicon wins in terms of performance per watt no doubt. My 14” MacBook Pro is the best laptop I’ve ever owned for sure. Way way way better than dell crap that I once owned back in the early 2000s.

But x86 has the benefit of being able to run a broader library of software and operating systems. As good as apple silicon is, most of the games on my steam library need an x86 chip + windows + GeForce or Radeon. It would be great if Apple Silicon could run windows arm64 natively with full gpu acceleration for gaming. Or better yet: if macOS supported much more AAA games. Maybe that will start to change with Ventura.

The point of my post was to let others know that this ‘rumor’ from Trendforce appears to be fake news.

 

[pshufd]

Alder lake is decent, Raptor lake is coming soon later this year and should be even better. Zen 4 and Raptor lake will duke it out, and both will have much better single core and multi threading performance compared to apple silicon.

Meteor lake is their first mcm chip for client and also their first chip manufactured using EUV.

Of course apple silicon wins in terms of performance per watt no doubt. My 14” MacBook Pro is the best laptop I’ve ever owned for sure. Way way way better than dell crap that I once owned back in the early 2000s.

But x86 has the benefit of being able to run a broader library of software and operating systems. As good as apple silicon is, most of the games on my steam library need an x86 chip + windows + GeForce or Radeon. It would be great if Apple Silicon could run windows arm64 natively with full gpu acceleration for gaming.

The point of my post was to let others know that this ‘rumor’ from Trendforce appears to be fake news.

I spent a few months replacing what I could with native programs and only have two programs that are non-native. One is production and the other is just fun stuff but it's an open source project and I'm going to try to build it natively myself. I'm pretty surprised that there isn't a native build out there. One of the people on the project put out a native Apple Silicon binary last year but it's no longer there. The other is a Windows program which I'm running under WINE/Rosetta 2. It's not ideal but it works.

macOS has matured quite a bit and has a lot of software available for it now. There are also lots of apps available in the cloud too. I'm sure that lots of people will still need Windows but it can really help to put in the effort to find replacements. Microsoft is definitely headed in the ARM direction as they want what Apple has now and x86 isn't going to cut it.

 

[deconstruct60]

Intel denies this rumor and claims meteor lake is on track for 2023.

In a message to the Verge:

“Thomas Hannaford clarifying to The Verge that not only are they untrue, but that Meteor Lake will actually ship, launch, and be available to consumers in 2023.”

Intel denies Meteor Lake is delayed to 2024, says chips will ‘launch’ in 2023

Just as planned.

www.theverge.com

From the article....

" ... During its Q2 earnings call, Intel said it had already shipped 35 million units of its 12th Gen Alder Lake processors. ..."

around 20M units ( in a year ) is about Mac market size (pre-2019) . It would have been quite helpful if Apple was still a major customer. Apple used to buy CPUs with higher than average margins which would have soften the blow in a slowdown.
Also apparently still a fair number of 10th and 11th gen stuff going out the door still also. ( In part, the late shift to 12th gen laptop volume production at play. )

PC demand slowing down a bit, Raptor Lake looking to be on track to be an incremental upgrade .... there isn't tons of pressure for Intel to try to push Meteor Lake "too early". ( As opposed to if Raptor Lake had problems or AMD 7000 delivered abnormally early on laptop APUs. . ). Sliding to the very end of 2023 isn't good but not having anything out by May 2023 isn't that long after the Raptor Lake refresh would have rolled out anyway.

 

[pshufd]

From the article....

" ... During its Q2 earnings call, Intel said it had already shipped 35 million units of its 12th Gen Alder Lake processors. ..."

around 20M units ( in a year ) is about Mac market size (pre-2019) . It would have been quite helpful if Apple was still a major customer. Apple used to buy CPUs with higher than average margins which would have soften the blow in a slowdown.
Also apparently still a fair number of 10th and 11th gen stuff going out the door still also. ( In part, the late shift to 12th gen laptop volume production at play. )

PC demand slowing down a bit, Raptor Lake looking to be on track to be an incremental upgrade .... there isn't tons of pressure for Intel to try to push Meteor Lake "too early". ( As opposed to if Raptor Lake had problems or AMD 7000 delivered abnormally early on laptop APUs. . ). Sliding to the very end of 2023 isn't good but not having anything out by May 2023 isn't that long after the Raptor Lake refresh would have rolled out anyway.

You can get an idea of the money that Apple is saving by looking at the refurb Mac mini store. There's one M1 system and the rest are all Intel systems starting at $1,000+. When you consider the performance difference, it's no wonder that there are a ton of Intel systems in there.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Alder lake is decent, Raptor lake is coming soon later this year and should be even better. Zen 4 and Raptor lake will duke it out, and both will have much better single core and multi threading performance compared to apple silicon. For example, here is Raptor Lake’s leaked Geekbench score. Not even the mighty m1 ultra can do this.

View attachment 2039539

I find it interesting that every Apple Silicon chip, M1 or M2, is not too far short of the peak leaked performance of a currently unreleased chip. The M1 is roughly 79% of that number the M2 is 88%. So, in real world terms (especially talking about today when this chip isn’t even released, yet), the percentage of all Apple Silicon users actually experiencing day to day performance like this will always be greater than the percentage of Intel or AMD users… most of them likely won’t see anything near that.

 

[deconstruct60]

You can get an idea of the money that Apple is saving by looking at the refurb Mac mini store. There's one M1 system and the rest are all Intel systems starting at $1,000+. When you consider the performance difference, it's no wonder that there are a ton of Intel systems in there.

The refurbish store tends to have a substantial amount of stuff that is coming in "off lease". When the lease is up then it gets returned to Apple who now needs to let it go. At the current page, eight of the nine Intel Minis have no discount attached to them at all. Buying at 'full price' is going to move fast? Probably not. If I recall correctly the max term on an Apple lease is 3 years. 2019 Mini leases falling out of the cycle in 2022 won't not be strange. (and folks can exit early on a lease. That is one of the upsides. )

"Bought and shortly returned" can contribute to refurb entries also. ( there is a i3 quad that Apple doesn't sell anymore listed at full price there so there is some odd stuff on that page. )


In directly though, for AMD and Intel there is a problem that will impact "new" CPU sales. 2-3 year old PCs are fast enough for most people. If inflation shrank someones discretionary budget for a new computer... buying something used can work just fine. ( replace 5-6 year old model with 'last years' model that is already out there. ). That factor even worse on the GPU side with many smallish scale crypto folks dumping product into the used market.

 

[falkon-engine]

I find it interesting that every Apple Silicon chip, M1 or M2, is not too far short of the peak leaked performance of a currently unreleased chip. The M1 is roughly 79% of that number the M2 is 88%. So, in real world terms (especially talking about today when this chip isn’t even released, yet), the percentage of all Apple Silicon users actually experiencing day to day performance like this will always be greater than the percentage of Intel or AMD users… most of them likely won’t see anything near that.

I feel that above a certain baseline level of performance, say Geekbench 1700 or so, there are diminishing returns.

The reason why I bring up Intel Raptor Lake performance is because many out there are saying that Intel is dead, it is not innovating any more, an iPad chip is faster than Intel's desktop chips... but as intel has moved beyond it's 14nm disaster, and now that it's adding E-cores to its lineup, the new chips coming out have some serious performance increases relative to prior generations. This is unlike what we saw in the 14nm days where successive generations offered minuscule (if any) performance increases.

Competition from Apple and AMD and ARM are at play, and I believe that unlike the 2010's, the 2020's will be a fascinating time to own new chips. The performance increases we're seeing with successive generations is incredibly impressive. My m1 max laptop has replaced a desktop machine as my daily driver... it is in clamshell mode connected to my thunderbolt and USB peripherals and dual displays via one wire... a USB4 wire connected to a thunderbolt 4 dock (TS4). PciExpress Power! The laptop is that good and it runs cool with no fan noise. Ever. Apple has really demonstrated the power of ARM.

x86 ain't dead yet, and Apple is just getting started with ARM. I am excited to see what these companies cook up as they battle it out in the market place.

 

[EdT]

PowerPC is not ARM.

Both PowerPC and the M-series processors are RISC chips, which stand for Reduced Instruction Set Chip. X86 compatible processors are CISC chips, which stand for Complex Instruction Set Chip. Here’s a University of Stanford article that explains the difference and uses the PowerPC chip as an example of a RISC processor: RISC vs CISC

 

[TSE]

Both PowerPC and the M-series processors are RISC chips, which stand for Reduced Instruction Set Chip. X86 compatible processors are CISC chips, which stand for Complex Instruction Set Chip. Here’s a University of Stanford article that explains the difference and uses the PowerPC chip as an example of a RISC processor: RISC vs CISC

I understand that and you are absolutely right. But PowerPC is not an ARM chip, and ARM chips are not PowerPC.

It's like saying a truck and a sedan are both the same thing since they are both automobiles. Sure, they are both automobiles, but they are within different categories of automobiles.

 

[EdT]

If Intel is sticking with their current architecture then they can produce processors that are faster than Apple but that won’t help their battery life. So desktops and laptops that have to be plugged in can outperform an M1/M2 chip but not for very long if they are running on a battery.

 

[EdT]

I understand that and you are absolutely right. But PowerPC is not an ARM chip, and ARM chips are not PowerPC.

It's like saying a truck and a sedan are both the same thing since they are both automobiles. Sure, they are both automobiles, but they are within different categories of automobiles.

It is the same concept type of chip. The PowerPC is also a pretty old initial design (mid 1990’s) and probably doesn’t have the built in multiple graphic cores and whatever advanced memory architecture that Apple is using now but it did have many of the same advantages vs. the x386 and 486 processors as far as processing speed and energy usage. What it didn’t have was acceptance by the public because of lack of Windows compatibility. With all of the iPhones and iPads Apple has sold over the last 20 years it now has a respectable software base that Intel compatibility isn’t as mandatory as it was.

 

[pshufd]

If Intel is sticking with their current architecture then they can produce processors that are faster than Apple but that won’t help their battery life. So desktops and laptops that have to be plugged in can outperform an M1/M2 chip but not for very long if they are running on a battery.

Apple Silicon customers are in that WoW! realm of low power while the vast majority are using x86 stuff and haven't experienced it. If they never see it, they may not know what they are missing. And I think that AMD and Intel would be fine for that so that they could just continue to market based on having the fastest chip.

 

[chucker23n1]

Alder lake is decent, Raptor lake is coming soon later this year and should be even better. Zen 4 and Raptor lake will duke it out, and both will have much better single core and multi threading performance compared to apple silicon.

Rembrandt has poor single-core performance compared to either Alder Lake or M1, so I'll believe it when I see it. AMD is competing against Tiger Lake, not Alder Lake or M1. They're two generations behind.

For example, here is Raptor Lake’s leaked Geekbench score. Not even the mighty m1 ultra can do this.

View attachment 2039539

Bringing up the M1 Ultra is kind of a moot point. All M1s are the same p-cores at the same clock. The Ultra just has more of them.

It's true that Raptor Lake is likely to handily take the single-core perf crown, but it does so by again increasing wattage.

 

[chucker23n1]

Y’all blaming Intel now, but how is that PowerPC chip going for ya now?

PowerPC would be going fine if not for the fact that it strategically didn't make sense for Apple, IBM, nor Motorola.

There's nothing inherently better or poorer about ARM vs. PowerPC. It's mostly industry circumstances:

By the early 2000s, IBM was mostly interested in servers, not desktops and laptops. And Motorola was mostly interested in embedded, not desktops and laptops (and then soon after, Motorola wasn't even interested in that and spun off Freescale). This left Apple with no CPU design company that cared about them.

Meanwhile, they needed someone for iPods and later iPhones, and ARM, due to its licensing model, had spread across many companies such as Texas Instruments and Samsung. So they bought chips from Samsung for the first iPhone, then as they started getting some money, outright bought CPU design companies. Including, by the way, one that used to be make PowerPC chips.

There are many easily conceivable alt histories where PowerPC would be where ARM is instead, including:

• if IBM and Motorola had agreed by the late 1990s to cheaply license PowerPC, we would've seen it on the iPod, and that would've in turn made it more likely to show up on the iPhone
• if Apple in the late 1990s had had anywhere close to the level of money they did by 2008, they simply could've stuck with PowerPC and did the CPU design for desktops and laptops themselves, which is precisely what they do now

 

[TSE]

It is the same concept type of chip. The PowerPC is also a pretty old initial design (mid 1990’s) and probably doesn’t have the built in multiple graphic cores and whatever advanced memory architecture that Apple is using now but it did have many of the same advantages vs. the x386 and 486 processors as far as processing speed and energy usage. What it didn’t have was acceptance by the public because of lack of Windows compatibility. With all of the iPhones and iPads Apple has sold over the last 20 years it now has a respectable software base that Intel compatibility isn’t as mandatory as it was.

You are really stretching it, but I understand your point.

 

[Mr. Dee]

Sounds like some of us are still waiting for the PowerBook G5. Power per watt my @$..

 

[Unregistered 4U]

The reason why I bring up Intel Raptor Lake performance is because many out there are saying that Intel is dead, it is not innovating any more, an iPad chip is faster than Intel's desktop chips...

To be sure, though, giving Intel the benefit of the doubt isn’t something anyone should do anymore. When Raptor Lake ships, we’ll see what the performance is. As far as we know, this could be a nitrogen cooled core at ambient Antarctic temperatures.

Competition from Apple and AMD and ARM are at play, and I believe that unlike the 2010's, the 2020's will be a fascinating time to own new chips. The performance increases we're seeing with successive generations is incredibly impressive. My m1 max laptop has replaced a desktop machine as my daily driver... it is in clamshell mode connected to my thunderbolt and USB peripherals and dual displays via one wire... a USB4 wire connected to a thunderbolt 4 dock (TS4). PciExpress Power! The laptop is that good and it runs cool with no fan noise. Ever. Apple has really demonstrated the power of ARM.

Apple’s not in that competition anymore. Intel and other chipmakers that want to vie for being the best performing Windows or Linux platform will go back and forth swapping the “best performance” crown. Apple’s M series will just continue to consistently be more performant than the prior generation for the purposes of running macOS and macOS applications. They’ll still score near the top of generic benchmarks, but no one should ever be under the assumption that Apple will (or even has the desire to) design their systems such that they score higher that all of the competition.

 

[falkon-engine]

To be sure, though, giving Intel the benefit of the doubt isn’t something anyone should do anymore. When Raptor Lake ships, we’ll see what the performance is. As far as we know, this could be a nitrogen cooled core at ambient Antarctic temperatures.


Apple’s not in that competition anymore. Intel and other chipmakers that want to vie for being the best performing Windows or Linux platform will go back and forth swapping the “best performance” crown. Apple’s M series will just continue to consistently be more performant than the prior generation for the purposes of running macOS and macOS applications. They’ll still score near the top of generic benchmarks, but no one should ever be under the assumption that Apple will (or even has the desire to) design their systems such that they score higher that all of the competition.

I see it differently. If you pay attention to amd and Intel earnings calls and other statements they make at industry events, you can tell they understand the need to improve efficiency and performance per watt. I'm sure their customers like Dell Lenovo hp Asus and others are pushing them to create chips that can compete relatively well with apple in terms of performance per watt. To improve battery life, reduce ran noise and temps, offer excellent performance. These are the competitive forces at play. Whether AMD and Intel can do it with x86 and smaller nodes we'll see.

But lucky for them, Apple isnt yet a merchant silicon vendor selling its silicon to laptop manufacturers. Qualcomm's nuvia is trying to do this with ARM though. I'm looking forward to what these companies cook up over the next few years.

 

[Gelam]

TSMC is in Taiwan, which has very non zero odds of either being taken taken under Chinese control (with any factories they desire) or having their industry destroyed in a war with China. If they do, the US will almost certainly get involved, and the Chinese government will sieze all US assets in their country. It could be an absolutely enormous amount of money for what ends up coming to nothing.

Additionally, I'm not sure the Taiwanese government would allow the sale. It is THE defining industry of the country.

If Apple wanted chip production capacity of their own, better to take advantage of the CHIPS act and build it in the USA. Or, at least, get in bed with a chip maker not in a country that the Chinese have repeatedly stated that they're going to take over, by force if necessary.

It will be a very interesting decade indeed.

 

[Gelam]

Y’all blaming Intel now, but how is that PowerPC chip going for ya now?

I believe some Power PC chips now power some satellites.

 

[chucker23n1]

I believe some Power PC chips now power some satellites.

Yeah, there are interesting uses of PowerPC. For example, the Curiosity and Perseverance Mars rovers both use the RAD750, which is a variant of the PowerPC 750 in G3 Macs.

 

[Gelam]

Yeah, there are interesting uses of PowerPC. For example, the Curiosity and Perseverance Mars rovers both use the RAD750, which is a variant of the PowerPC 750 in G3 Macs.

Interesting! I wonder if some intel chips are out in space as well.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I see it differently. If you pay attention to amd and Intel earnings calls and other statements they make at industry events, you can tell they understand the need to improve efficiency and performance per watt. I'm sure their customers like Dell Lenovo hp Asus and others are pushing them to create chips that can compete relatively well with apple in terms of performance per watt.

I don’t doubt that AMD and Intel are locked in a back and forth, BUT there’s no real direct competition between what Apple’s doing and what AMD/Intel are doing. For every Dell that’s like “create chips that can compete relatively well with Apple”, Intel or AMD would reply, “OK! We can do that by next year, but it won’t run any of your old software” to which they will likely hear “Oh, ok, then just keep giving us the same old stuff but faster?” THAT they can do. And it’s not like Intel/AMD’s going to make a “special” chip JUST for Dell. Or, JUST for Lenovo. That HP system may be lacking in battery life due to poor efficiency, but it won’t materially affect sales because EVERY system will be lacking in battery life in exactly the same way! Luckily for Intel and AMD, Apple’s not out to hold the crown in single threaded or multithreaded benchmark performance, so one of them will ALWAYS be able to say “We have the best performing processor this quarter!”

AMD/Intel will make iterative slow steps to improve efficiency, but not threatening Apple, Apple will make iterative steps towards higher performance, but not threatening AMD/Intel.