Apple claims keyboard fix is permanent...

[aevan]

I just listened to the latest Gruber podcast (The Talk Show) and he says that he heard (admittedly, he was not able to verify) that Apple did an internal investigation of the issue and found out that a certain alloy used in production - a metal part of the key - was not up to specifications and that it was prone to bending (a very small amount would do) that made the key much more succeptable to dirt than originally designed. They started using a new, more rigid type of alloy (newly manufactured keyboards) that reduced the failure rate significantly.

Of course, this is just "a guy I know heard from a guy he knows" thing. And also, a lot of people here would claim Apple is lying even if they gave all the details officially - so make of this what you will. However, this does seem like a plausible scenario.

1. Apple tests their products rigorously and they certainly didn't design this keyboard to give them all this trouble. If anyone thinks Apple knew this keyboard would fail but were like 'ah, **** it, just go with it' - you need to think harder. Just look at all the money they are loosing (even before the repair program). I have already said and I still believe the issue is NOT in the design, but in the manufacturing process. I'm sure Apple prototypes created by the design team were working fine.
2. Anyone who knows how things are manufactured at scale, knows that the production process gets tweaked during the product's life cycle. Machines change a bit, production gets optimized, materials sometimes change. An iPhone made in the first week and in the last week of its run are not identical - they are the same to the naked eye, but certain materials may be slighlty different, the production can be tweaked, etc. For example, supposedly Apple did some minor tweaks to iPhone 6 models after that "bendgate" started, even before they changed things with the 6S (and even then, it was mostly a material change as far as I know).
3. iFixit and people opening up their machines can't know the whole picture just by examining at the parts. Some changes are not perceivable.
4. A lot of people feel that the newer keyboards feel softer, which is in line with a more rigid metal part inside.
5. Keyboard repairs have dropped according to certain sources (as reported by Macrumors)
6. You can bet your ass Apple is doing something about this. How effective their changes are remains to be seen, but they certainly tweaked something, especially now since they offer the repair program. When all this started, I suspected that if they tweak anything, it will either be a full redesign, or a material change. It seems it's the latter. I don't expect this type of keyboard to go anywhere soon.

 

[Garage Battle]

I just listened to the latest Gruber podcast (The Talk Show) and he says that he heard (admittedly, he was not able to verify) that Apple did an internal investigation of the issue and found out that a certain alloy used in production - a metal part of the key - was not up to specifications and that it was prone to bending (a very small amount would do) that made the key much more succeptable to dirt than originally designed. They started using a new, more rigid type of alloy (newly manufactured keyboards) that reduced the failure rate significantly.

Of course, this is just "a guy I know heard from a guy he knows" thing. And also, a lot of people here would claim Apple is lying even if they gave all the details officially - so make of this what you will. However, this does seem like a plausible scenario.

1. Apple tests their products rigorously and they certainly didn't design this keyboard to give them all this trouble. If anyone thinks Apple knew this keyboard would fail but were like 'ah, **** it, just go with it' - you need to think harder. Just look at all the money they are loosing (even before the repair program). I have already said and I still believe the issue is NOT in the design, but in the manufacturing process. I'm sure Apple prototypes created by the design team were working fine.
2. Anyone who knows how things are manufactured at scale, knows that the production process gets tweaked during the product's life cycle. Machines change a bit, production gets optimized, materials sometimes change. An iPhone made in the first week and in the last week of its run are not identical - they are the same to the naked eye, but certain materials may be slighlty different, the production can be tweaked, etc. For example, supposedly Apple did some minor tweaks to iPhone 6 models after that "bendgate" started, even before they changed things with the 6S (and even then, it was mostly a material change as far as I know).
3. iFixit and people opening up their machines can't know the whole picture just by examining at the parts. Some changes are not perceivable.
4. A lot of people feel that the newer keyboards feel softer, which is in line with a more rigid metal part inside.
5. Keyboard repairs have dropped according to certain sources (as reported by Macrumors)
6. You can bet your ass Apple is doing something about this. How effective their changes are remains to be seen, but they certainly tweaked something, especially now since they offer the repair program. When all this started, I suspected that if they tweak anything, it will either be a full redesign, or a material change. It seems it's the latter. I don't expect this type of keyboard to go anywhere soon.

everything you just typed is negated by this single photo:

http://youreholdingitwrong.org/wrong.jpg

Apple is a company. Apple fudged up. They've done it before. I thought this image was extremely impressive:

https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/2010/07/100714k_lab_test_photos_07_EI_f.jpg

Thats Apples antenna testing room. Know what I don't see? A persons hand holding it.

There isn't multiple versions of this point - Apple was aiming for a thin design (which is what Apple always does) and they got it wrong on multiple fronts. Why didn't apple catch the keyboard flaw? Maybe for the same reason they screwed up the iPhone antenna - their desire to keep things so secretive didn't allow them to bring the laptops into normal/average/dirty environments - how about that?

Apple is very good at producing devices at scale - but if the engineering or material selection isn't good, then no refinement of manufacturing process is going to correct that.

fixit can most certainly determine the problem by opening it and applying common sense. If there is a piece of grit that finds its way into the mechanism, and prevents it from working, then with the grit removed, the key works again, then it is preventing the mechanism from functioning properly.

 

[aevan]

everything you just typed is negated by this single photo:

http://youreholdingitwrong.org/wrong.jpg

Apple is a company. Apple fudged up. They've done it before. I thought this image was extremely impressive:

The level of your cynicism is what is impressive. Also, nothing was negated by that single photo. The image itself is just an example of overblowing issues when it comes to Apple. I never had any antenna issues with the two iPhones 4 I had, but people love a good story.

https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/2010/07/100714k_lab_test_photos_07_EI_f.jpg

Thats Apples antenna testing room. Know what I don't see? A persons hand holding it.

There isn't multiple versions of this point - Apple was aiming for a thin design (which is what Apple always does) and they got it wrong on multiple fronts. Why didn't apple catch the keyboard flaw? Maybe for the same reason they screwed up the iPhone antenna - their desire to keep things so secretive didn't allow them to bring the laptops into normal/average/dirty environments - how about that?

Maybe. We don't know. I said what I wrote is plausable, not what 100% certainly happened.

The 'aiming for a thin design' is a bad argument that gets tossed around here all the time. I'm sure a keyboard can be made just as thin and still be reliable. There are just as thin keyboards that don't have these issues, so the problem does not lie there. It's just easy to bash Apple about the "thin" thing, because the rugged manly men of Macrumors forums don't care about things becoming thinner and lighter.

Apple is very good at producing devices at scale - but if the engineering or material selection isn't good, then no refinement of manufacturing process is going to correct that.

Of course it will. Materials get changed during production all the time, when issues arise.

fixit can most certainly determine the problem by opening it and applying common sense.

They can only inspect it visually. And common sense can't help you determine the physical attributes of various alloys. They could, I guess, go to a lab and analyse it deeper, but I don't think they have the will and resources to do that.

If what you say is true, we wouldn't need crime labs, DNA tests, anything with a microscope in police investigations. A few detectives would just observe the crime scene and use common sense. Of course, that works sometimes, but not all times - ergo: labs.


Anyway....

As I said, there will be people who will completely disagree and be all negative. We know, we know: Apple - rotten, Tim Cook - bean counter, people who bought the MBP - sheep. We get it, ok?

If the USS Enterprise showed up, and Captain Picard himself beamed down to tell people that they opened a time-space rift to come back into this exact moment in time and shared their advanced materials and technologies with Apple to fix the keyboard issues, some people here would claim he's just another Apple fanboy and that Apple just screwed up and they should, I don't know, just close their doors in shame.

Anyway, just to repeat: what I wrote is just one possibility. I'm not claiming it's the truth, but I'm not dismissing it either.

 

[537635]

If they actually tweaked the design, then how come newly bought computers and those with replaced topcases are also failing.

And did you actually see the ifixit video? Small piece od dust physically blocks the mechanism from moving and actuating the keys.
No special alloy will fix what is a failure of keyboard design. It is so thin that it is too thin. Bulky (normal) keyboard wouldn't even begin to be problematic with such small particles.

I believe this is a crossroad. Thinner design simply isn't possible because of mechanical constraints. Unless they start using touchscreen + some sort of mechanical feedback. Which I am pretty certain they will after this.

 

[sunapple]

And they did. I am living proof. I am typing this on a 2010 MBP 17" that I purchased new 8 years ago. Zero issues.

My father is living proof that the opposite of your story can also be true; 2011 15” with a broken E key. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t

It’s easier to take it off, but cleaning doesn’t help in this case.

Solution? Replacing the entire top case I believe (correct me if I’m wrong). Too expensive for an old machine, rendering it totally unusable.

It’s probably not a widespread problem like it is with the butterfly switch, but it’s exactly the same thing otherwise.

 

[Ma2k5]

Hmm, if it is true that they just changed the alloy, although this would potentially solve the issue of the mechanism bending/breaking below the key (something I had to unfortunately experience), does this actually stop keys getting stuck (and other various issues such as ignored presses/double presses)?
[doublepost=1530697544][/doublepost]

My father is living proof that the opposite of your story can also be true; 2011 15” with a broken E key. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t

It’s easier to take it off, but cleaning doesn’t help in this case.

Solution? Replacing the entire top case I believe (correct me if I’m wrong). Too expensive for an old machine, rendering it totally unusable.

It’s probably not a widespread problem like it is with the butterfly switch, but it’s exactly the same thing otherwise.

The difference here though I would argue is, one is manufacturing (or misuse) defect, the other is a design defect.

To take another example, the Samsung Note 7 is not the only phone that can explode, pretty much any phone can due to the batteries they use, even an iPhone. The reason the Note 7 was recalled and not the iPhone is, the Note 7 suffered from a design flaw (not a manufacturing or misuse defect) which made it more likely to explode than the others.

 

[smirking]

everything you just typed is negated by this single photo... Thats Apples antenna testing room. Know what I don't see? A persons hand holding it.

This is 110% convincing! I'm also convinced that you're a lizard because I've never seen a photo of you drinking water.

Why didn't apple catch the keyboard flaw? Maybe for the same reason they screwed up the iPhone antenna - their desire to keep things so secretive didn't allow them to bring the laptops into normal/average/dirty environments - how about that?

You are so right and that's how Apple was successfully able to never let an iPhone prototype to fall into the hands of Gizmodo editor Jason Chen. Wait a minute... who's Jason Chen?

fixit can most certainly determine the problem by opening it and applying common sense.

I'm very interested in this very powerful diagnostic agent that you can apply to troubleshoot problematic electronics. Does it come in liquid form for easy application? Where can I buy it? I went to my local hardware store and asked them if they carry "Common Sense" and they looked at me like I was a lizard... so I drank a glass of water in front of them to prove that I wasn't.

They still thought I was a lizard. Some people have no common sense.

 

[537635]

I'm very interested in this very powerful diagnostic agent that you can apply to troubleshoot problematic electronics. Does it come in liquid form for easy application? Where can I buy it? I went to my local hardware store and asked them if they carry "Common Sense" and they looked at me like I was a lizard... so I drank a glass of water in front of them to prove that I wasn't.

He meant opening a key, sliding a small piece of dust under the butterfly mechanism and rendering the key inoperable.

That's common sense.

 

[smirking]

He meant opening a key, sliding a small piece of dust under the butterfly mechanism and rendering the key inoperable.

That's common sense.

I'm not disputing that small foreign objects can cause switch failure. I was (unclearly) talking in reference to @aevan's previous post that was being replied to. Aevan summarized some points from a John Gruber podcast where it covered some sources saying that Apple did actually make changes to their keyboard even if iFixit couldn't see them and that the changes were not in the design, but the manufacturing so even if the "new" keyboards appear to be the exact same ones as the previous ones to iFixit, they really aren't.

I'm really doubtful about the piece of dust claim though. Dust gets into everything. If dust alone could cause the issue (regardless of what the Geniusbar person said), we'd be seeing a 100% failure rate. Dirt and other debris on the other hand is another issue. No switch will work properly if you allow foreign objects to get into the switching mechanism. That of course, is common sense.

For the record, I'm really happy there's a repair program and I know there's a problem with the keyboards. I've had problems myself with my 2016 MBP. I'm just having a little fun at the expense of people who know the truth about everything. The only people who know the full truth about this whole ordeal are a small number of people at Apple whose job is to oversee the keyboard as a product. Most of their co-workers only know about as much as we do.
[doublepost=1530703370][/doublepost]

Hmm, if it is true that they just changed the alloy, although this would potentially solve the issue of the mechanism bending/breaking below the key (something I had to unfortunately experience), does this actually stop keys getting stuck (and other various issues such as ignored presses/double presses)?

I'd want to believe that it won't, but somehow I doubt it because I can't see how a better material completely prevents a small foreign object from getting lodged. Probably at best, it'll make it less likely to happen and when it does happen, it may be less prone to damage. My 2016's keyboard has definitely snared a few bits of debris, resulting in some stuck keys and repeating keys. I was able to dislodge or crush whatever it was by pressing down hard and jiggling the key. With a lesser material, perhaps doing that would simply cause the butterfly mechanism to get deformed and become worse. In my case, it worked each time.
[doublepost=1530703628][/doublepost]

The difference here though I would argue is, one is manufacturing (or misuse) defect, the other is a design defect.

Yeah, I suspect that we're actually seeing different problems that just happen to result in the same outcome. They probably have taken this very seriously and did something about it, but what they did either caused other failures or wasn't executed correctly.

That's not an excuse though. They designed themselves into this corner so they don't get a free pass just for having tried.

 

[sunapple]

Hmm, if it is true that they just changed the alloy, although this would potentially solve the issue of the mechanism bending/breaking below the key (something I had to unfortunately experience), does this actually stop keys getting stuck (and other various issues such as ignored presses/double presses)?
[doublepost=1530697544][/doublepost]

The difference here though I would argue is, one is manufacturing (or misuse) defect, the other is a design defect.

To take another example, the Samsung Note 7 is not the only phone that can explode, pretty much any phone can due to the batteries they use, even an iPhone. The reason the Note 7 was recalled and not the iPhone is, the Note 7 suffered from a design flaw (not a manufacturing or misuse defect) which made it more likely to explode than the others.

The mechanism died after 6 years of usage, a manufacturing or misuse defect is less likely IMO. It’s designed to last a certain amount of presses, maybe it’s just worn out after so many years of usage. That brings me the the next problem; replacement. That’s just as hard as the current design.

 

[terraphantm]

You are so right and that's how Apple was successfully able to never let an iPhone prototype to fall into the hands of Gizmodo editor Jason Chen. Wait a minute... who's Jason Chen?

Yeah, but do you remember how that phone was found? It was in a case that disguised it as a 3GS, which of course would have prevented them from noticing the antenna issue.

Very well could have been a similar situation with the macbooks. Perhaps the field tested ones were in some sort of disguise that covered the keyboard, which would have prevented dust from actually getting in.

Point is, Apple's testing methodologies aren't perfect. They would have caught issues like antennagate and bendgate if they were tested more thoroughly.

 

[antonis]

I assume that they do have a better design for the upcoming laptops - I can't imagine why they would ever want to release a faulty design again, after they have admitted its flaws.

Now, whether the improved design does (and if actually can) get in the 2016/2017 models under replacement program, is anyone's guess.
[doublepost=1530710791][/doublepost]

Bit it also seems highly illogical that they would launch a repair program to replace bad parts with the same bad parts, no?

And yet many people report that they had to go through the replacement procedure more than once. I don't keep high hopes for the existing laptops. For the new ones though (future releases) it would indeed seem illogical.

 

[Ma2k5]

The mechanism died after 6 years of usage, a manufacturing or misuse defect is less likely IMO. It’s designed to last a certain amount of presses, maybe it’s just worn out after so many years of usage. That brings me the the next problem; replacement. That’s just as hard as the current design.

Yep I could have added "Expected end of life" for those, as you rightly said, all products are designed to handle a certain amount of use before they are expected to fail.

 

[terraphantm]

Bit it also seems highly illogical that they would launch a repair program to replace bad parts with the same bad parts, no?

They've done exactly that in the past (GPU issues in older macbooks for example).

 

[smirking]

Yeah, but do you remember how that phone was found? It was in a case that disguised it as a 3GS, which of course would have prevented them from noticing the antenna issue.

And you would not be incorrect, but take a look at what I was replying to.

Apple's testing methodologies aren't perfect. They would have caught issues like antennagate and bendgate if they were tested more thoroughly.

Nobody's methodologies are perfect. That's why I never buy a first generation product unless I have no choice. Apple could have held onto the new design for another year and wrecked it every which way they thought imaginable and still ended up halfway short in identifying all of the possible issues.
[doublepost=1530713280][/doublepost]

I assume that they do have a better design for the upcoming laptops - I can't imagine why they would ever want to release a faulty design again, after they have admitted its flaws.

Well, that can easily happen if by rushing to fix the last issue, they introduce a new issue that didn't come to mind. There are different ways you can end up with repeating or jammed keys. To the user, it all seems the same, but they could have fixed it and introduced a new source of failure and then fix it again only to introduce yet another one.

Of course that brings us back to them rolling out a design that has so little room for error that this could happen.

 

[mj1108]

I assume that they do have a better design for the upcoming laptops - I can't imagine why they would ever want to release a faulty design again, after they have admitted its flaws.

Now, whether the improved design does (and if actually can) get in the 2016/2017 models under replacement program, is anyone's guess.
[doublepost=1530710791][/doublepost]

I would think they would be replacing these keyboards with one that has a better design and fixes the issue, which we would end up seeing on the 2018 Macbooks. I don't think Apple would want to fix a crappy keyboard with another crappy keyboard then have to do it again several months later.

 

[tram]

with a free 4 year warranty, I would say that is permanent.

 

[maflynn]

with a free 4 year warranty, I would say that is permanent.

Except that you might have to deal with multiple repairs and each repair takes one to two weeks. That will get old fast

 

[tram]

nope, after 2 attempts it is actually covered for replacement or refund under the State of North Carolina Lemon Law. It doesn't just apply to cars. And I have used it.

 

[sublunar]

I just listened to the latest Gruber podcast (The Talk Show) and he says that he heard (admittedly, he was not able to verify) that Apple did an internal investigation of the issue and found out that a certain alloy used in production - a metal part of the key - was not up to specifications and that it was prone to bending (a very small amount would do) that made the key much more succeptable to dirt than originally designed. They started using a new, more rigid type of alloy (newly manufactured keyboards) that reduced the failure rate significantly.

Of course, this is just "a guy I know heard from a guy he knows" thing. And also, a lot of people here would claim Apple is lying even if they gave all the details officially - so make of this what you will. However, this does seem like a plausible scenario.

1. Apple tests their products rigorously and they certainly didn't design this keyboard to give them all this trouble. If anyone thinks Apple knew this keyboard would fail but were like 'ah, **** it, just go with it' - you need to think harder. Just look at all the money they are loosing (even before the repair program). I have already said and I still believe the issue is NOT in the design, but in the manufacturing process. I'm sure Apple prototypes created by the design team were working fine.
2. Anyone who knows how things are manufactured at scale, knows that the production process gets tweaked during the product's life cycle. Machines change a bit, production gets optimized, materials sometimes change. An iPhone made in the first week and in the last week of its run are not identical - they are the same to the naked eye, but certain materials may be slighlty different, the production can be tweaked, etc. For example, supposedly Apple did some minor tweaks to iPhone 6 models after that "bendgate" started, even before they changed things with the 6S (and even then, it was mostly a material change as far as I know).
3. iFixit and people opening up their machines can't know the whole picture just by examining at the parts. Some changes are not perceivable.
4. A lot of people feel that the newer keyboards feel softer, which is in line with a more rigid metal part inside.
5. Keyboard repairs have dropped according to certain sources (as reported by Macrumors)
6. You can bet your ass Apple is doing something about this. How effective their changes are remains to be seen, but they certainly tweaked something, especially now since they offer the repair program. When all this started, I suspected that if they tweak anything, it will either be a full redesign, or a material change. It seems it's the latter. I don't expect this type of keyboard to go anywhere soon.

Pretty much tallies with my own rules of not buying a Rev A Apple product and moreover, not buying the first batch of any product unless it's a spec bump (very minor change) over a previous generation. This gives the manufacturing folks time to get over issues in early production and get to a level of quality stability. In theory, the 2017 MacBook pro should have been of interest but I waited long enough to read about people reporting issues again which made me very much sad.

The way Apple operate there's a limit on the day to day testing of prototypes of secret products which could throw up issues. What they probably don't do is give these laptops to guys who eat sugary doughnuts at their desk every day - for example or work in dusty outdoor environments.

In the case of the 2017 keyboard, in the absence of visible changes to the keyboard we have the case of the shims that Apple Stores have been using plus potentially a change in materials to add stiffness. The shims can be noted easily but material changes can't be detected with such ease.

What has emerged since is the cost of repair with keyboard issues necessitating replacement of the top case to include the battery (a generally unrelated part!) and - according to repair video blogs - a lot of time spent messing about with rivets. The 2016/17 generation MacBook Pro is not something that Joe Public can attempt to repair but repair shops will find it difficult too by those accounts!

Rather than a manufacturing fault, the issue of rivets with keyboard related repairs is surely a design flaw rather than a manufacturing fault. In fact, the proximity of the battery to the keyboard would surely mean the keyboard is affected earlier and worse when a battery fails, expands, and warps the keyboard as it expands.

A byproduct of the design leading the engineering to the point of making repairs impractical, costly in both money and time without the product because I am assuming that the average Apple Store has to send MacBook Pros with serious keyboard faults to be sent away.

Underneath all of this is the continually unaddressed issue of the lack of terraced battery after the 'key part' failed a test. This would presumably have generated more battery life but might also have forced the battery to be glued to the keyboard just to get a good enough battery capacity.

Come October, Apple may have to address the keyboard flaw if the 2018 models superficially look like a continuation of the 2016 and 2017 models. We may see a one liner from Phil Schiller mentioning how the keyboard feels much better so some-such but after a 9 month gap between 2016 and 2017 models we're looking at a 16 month gap between the 2017 and the 2018 models. While CPU release timing may be part of the reason for the short gap between the 2016 and 2017 models the Coffee Lake CPUs have been out for a few months by this point.

Ideally, we would be talking a major redesign. The Coffee Lake CPUs have extra cores but also require new Intel chip sets - a bit more involved than the drop-in updates between 2016 and 2017 models and potentially the reason behind the delay (apart from perhaps work spent on the modular Mac Pro at this point).

 

[Garage Battle]

Yeah, but do you remember how that phone was found? It was in a case that disguised it as a 3GS, which of course would have prevented them from noticing the antenna issue.

Very well could have been a similar situation with the macbooks. Perhaps the field tested ones were in some sort of disguise that covered the keyboard, which would have prevented dust from actually getting in.

Point is, Apple's testing methodologies aren't perfect. They would have caught issues like antennagate and bendgate if they were tested more thoroughly.

Thanks for also chiming in with common sense instead of just arguing to argue. Don't these people realize just because you can argue something one way doesn't make you right.

And for clown shoes up above who said "well I didnt have an issue with my iPhone 4" - it affected all models - it was a design flaw. As soon as I read about it I went and tested it and sure as **** my signal dropped and my phone stopped transferring data properly. So much so that youthful me called my family and told them to short Apple stock because of this issue. Sure enough the stock tanked around their admittance and I made a few $1000 off of Apple's idiotic mistake.

Apple, like other companies, are completely capable of making DESIGN mistakes. They do it all the time, and they did it with the 2016+ MB and MBP. Keep typing words it won't make you any more correct. Also, I get to say "design issue" because Im one of the lucky 2016 MBP owners with keys that have stuck with contaminants under them AND I also get a noisy "8" key when its running warm. DESIGN FLAW. Thanks for agreeing.

 

[smirking]

Thanks for also chiming in with common sense instead of just arguing to argue. Don't these people realize just because you can argue something one way doesn't make you right.

Oh the Yu-manity!

You still haven't proven that you're not a lizard.

 

[throAU]

Of course, this is just "a guy I know heard from a guy he knows" thing. And also, a lot of people here would claim Apple is lying even if they gave all the details officially - so make of this what you will. However, this does seem like a plausible scenario.

Gives hope at least. But again, i'll believe it when i see a teardown to confirm.

Apple are so cagey about releasing any of this sort of information that it's the only way to be sure.

Apple really need to be more transparent about this. I'm sure ALL of their customers would very much appreciate a public statement to that effect. I mean, if it was confirmed as problem identified, and problem resolved - i'd be in the market for a macbook perhaps. As i really want official e-GPU support.

But they won't do that. So, until the problem has been confirmed as resolved, both by a new design being confirmed to be in new machines AND that design actually proving itself to be better after say 12 months in the field, they're dreaming if they think i'm going to buy anything with the Macbook name until then. I'm not going to bet a few thousand dollars worth of my money on a machine that has known issues that are not officially confirmed to be fixed.


edit:

Apple, if anyone is listening - it's OK to admit to mistakes. Mistakes are how we learn. If you push technology, mistakes will be made.

What IS NOT OK is to just try and cover them up, deny the problem exists, and leave your most loyal customers (those who jump on v1.0 products) in the lurch - for years. Those same vocal apple cheerleader types who jump on v1.0 can also quite quickly become very vocal detractors.

[doublepost=1530774779][/doublepost]

nope, after 2 attempts it is actually covered for replacement or refund under the State of North Carolina Lemon Law. It doesn't just apply to cars. And I have used it.

That still doesn't really help if at that point you've invested in Apple software for 2 years and are entrenched in the platform rather than just buying a machine that worked in the first place. Replacement mac is still no good if the design is flawed and you get the same design back.

 

[Fishrrman]

mj wrote:
"I would think they would be replacing these keyboards with one that has a better design and fixes the issue, which we would end up seeing on the 2018 Macbooks. I don't think Apple would want to fix a crappy keyboard with another crappy keyboard then have to do it again several months later."

You would be "thinkin' wrong", in that case.

I'd reckon that the "new" keyboard/topcase is THE SAME ITEM as the failed one.
It's just "new and not failed".... yet.

Read up from the posters who have had the keyboard/topcase replacement, only to have the keyboard FAIL AGAIN some time afterwards...

 

[kjvmartin]

If they actually tweaked the design, then how come newly bought computers and those with replaced topcases are also failing.

This fix, according to the Apple employee, was implemented approximately 1 week before the date of my original post. If we continue to see failures of repaired or new inventory then we will know that either there was no fix, or the fix was inadequate.