It's a design issue, a single grain of sand can **** the key.
https://www.extremetech.com/computi...s-vulnerable-to-single-grain-of-sand-analysis
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Apple claims keyboard fix is permanent...
- Thread starter kjvmartin
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It's a design issue, a single grain of sand can **** the key.
https://www.extremetech.com/computi...s-vulnerable-to-single-grain-of-sand-analysis
Wonder how many of these don’t get free replacement with uninformed consumers. It’s not like Apple sends out emails telling consumers.
FWIW, I just got the top case of my 2017 MBP replaced (along with keyboard) and so far the difference between "original" and new keyboard is noticeable... it feels sturdier and more responsive. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually changed some material.
Crumbs and sand! My only weakness!
A beach, a sandwich, a Macbook - it will all end in tears.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, they've filed a patent to fix this issue and retain the basic design.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-patent-crumb-keyboard/
Would not make real sense to install more faulty keyboards but trying to fend off lawsuits.
I’m sure Apple does not want to have major keyboard redesign for next rev or thicker chassis.
This isn't a recall, it's a warranty extension for a specific issue.
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I replaced mine last week for my late 2016 nTB and don't feel there is a difference that would confirm a design change.
I had 2 late 2016 nTBs in my possession bought weeks apart (both in Dec 2016), one was bought for personal use while one was given to me by my employer. They had a difference in feel between them that I believe was more dramatic than the replacement I just got - granted I had 5 days of downtime, but I spent a year and a half on this machine (1100 battery cycles) and I type approx 100 wpm. The personally bought one had a much softer and quieter key action. There is of course a distinct feel to the action which differentiates a gen I vs. gen II butterfly board, but the firmness and loudness certainly varies. Just go to an Apple store and type on a bunch of machines.
This has pretty much been a constant for Apple keyboards since moving to the chiclets - the feel can vary quite a bit from unit to unit. I think what people are mostly feeling are variations from manufacture tolerances (ie. when such-and-such machine was last calibrated) to being produced by different suppliers. Batch to batch variations.
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There is certainly a slight difference in feel between 2016 and 2017 models, tolerances and variations or not. But even if there weren't, that wouldn't necessarily mean that there was no change in materials.
Many people swear there's a change, and there seems to be some anecdotal evidence to support a slight change to the mechanism.
Again, based on my own experience I'm certain I found more variation between two like units than between a topcase manufactured in late 2016 and one in early 2018. I'm confident a double-blind test would show I'm correct here w/ a variety of participants. That alot of people claim there is one is basic human nature, being hopeful that something has been mitigated in the face of a recurring problem.
Of course that doesn't confirm there wasn't a change on Apple's part, I'm just saying going by feel it's inconclusive. And the change could very well lend itself to a slight difference in feel, but that difference is within the same order of magnitude as typical tolerance variations.
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There could very well be a change to material used, but I'm not getting a sensation of the keys feeling sturdier and more responsive.
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Ya know... it'd be nice if Apple actually gave us some details about this whole thing. A little transparency.
It took them a long time to even admit there was a problem. And now they offer this repair program... but they can't even say if they made a better keyboard... or if they are replacing your faulty keyboard with the same faulty keyboard.
The comments range from "I think it feels different" to other people saying "I think it feels the same"
Again... it's cool that they are offering free repairs. But it'll suck if every 6 months you have to lose your laptop for a few days because of a piece of dust!
This is good news and what they should have done in the first place. I guess 3rd gen keyboard is on the horizon.
It would be nice, but the most economical option is to keep the info here as close to their chest as possible. If they admit to a defect and stats on the actual % of affected machines and their efforts on a revision to address, then that gives litigation efforts fuel to a proper recall which would be far more expensive than handling verifiable warranty claims.
The differential between the two approaches is probably in excess of a billion dollars. Is the hit to the brand by being less transparent about the manner worth that cost? Macs represent a tiny portion of their revenue, attention, and likely brand equity nowadays.
IMO a 4 year warranty to a questionably designed part (yes, perhaps the most important part) is a reasonable solution. For my 12/16 purchased laptop that gives Apple until 12/20 to have a fix. While I don't believe there is a fix in the wild right now (ie. if the latest keyboards are a more stable V2 it's not an actual design fix, just a mitigation) I do have faith Apple will have one in the next 2.5 years. It sucks to be without your machine for 5'ish days every time though.
I agree. My 2010 MBP 15" has the best keyboard I've ever typed on. Crisp and responsive. And after eight years, zero issues. It can be done, folks.
Of course it can be done. Now all of the sudden crappy keyboards which fail after a few months are the new normal.
Does anybody remember any keyboard from any manufacturer, which would fail in such a spectacular manner (crippled by a spec of dust) as the new Apple's keyboards 2015-2018? No? These machines should be pulled back in the same way as Note 7 was and customers given their money back. This is such a spectacular fail that it amazes me how people can still be saying 4 years extended warranty is a great deal.
Does anybody remember any keyboard from any manufacturer, which would fail in such a spectacular manner (crippled by a spec of dust) as the new Apple's keyboards 2015-2018? No? These machines should be pulled back in the same way as Note 7 was and customers given their money back. This is such a spectacular fail that it amazes me how people can still be saying 4 years extended warranty is a great deal.
If this is a claim from Apple Support, they have likely assumed it without confirmation, or are just saying it to reassure you.
What they told you about the 2017 model wasn't true but it was slightly altered and supposedly less likely to experience some of the issues but not all of them.
It is possible that they have altered the design for this program (that would be the somewhat logical approach). They are unlikely to start replacing it with the yet to be unveiled 2018 keyboard for a number of reasons, so the keyboard should be changed. But we won't know this until somebody actually looks at the mechanism rather than just saying 'it feels the same'.
Despite all of this, nobody, not even iFixit, has bothered to tear it down and examine it to check.
Nobody's even tested it properly, I would have thought that given the lawsuits, it would have happened by now.
What they told you about the 2017 model wasn't true but it was slightly altered and supposedly less likely to experience some of the issues but not all of them.
It is possible that they have altered the design for this program (that would be the somewhat logical approach). They are unlikely to start replacing it with the yet to be unveiled 2018 keyboard for a number of reasons, so the keyboard should be changed. But we won't know this until somebody actually looks at the mechanism rather than just saying 'it feels the same'.
Despite all of this, nobody, not even iFixit, has bothered to tear it down and examine it to check.
Nobody's even tested it properly, I would have thought that given the lawsuits, it would have happened by now.
They'd have to admit something is WRONG to begin with, and as we know Apple NEVER makes mistakes. /s
$18-20 billion in revenue is not a tiny amount. And is not a sum shareholders would want to see shrink either in real terms or as a percentage of Apples overall revenue.
Could not agree more. If there are people saying that customers should be happy that we can go back to an apple store and have the keyboards replaced every few months every time it fails for 4 years, then I dare say why don't you do that yourselves.
It's all relative, and that's a small portion of their revenue. Just look at the Buyer's Guide for Macs on this site - almost every line has been neglected... Macbook, Macbook Air, Macbook Pro, and iMac are all in a "don't buy" status.
Dollars invested in R&D and support for iOS devices yield a much higher return for the company. I gather that's what shareholders would want Apple to focus on. The Macs are part of an ecosystem that needs to be healthy though so too much neglect is short term thinking.
Years ago I was the lead engineer on a product line that made $30M a year. But I only worked on it part time and had trouble securing other engineers for feature pushes. Why? Because the majority of our team was focused on another project that did $200M. The only reason we got things out the door was because some of our largest customers on the major product really liked it and it was an embarrassment if too neglected, the $30M revenue was considered something more of a loss leader, even though to make that $30M we only expended maybe $5M. It was a 'lossly' gain because of the opportunity cost from not focusing resources on something more profitable.