Apple Clashes With UK Regulator in Fierce Response to Warning That Could Require It to 'Redesign the iPhone'

[usagora]

iOS has always been a closed system. MacOS, on the other hand, allowed installs from other locations. I can’t imagine it would be great PR for them to suddenly shut down installs outside the App Store on MacOS under the guise of security. It’s easier to claim this on iOS because it’s never been officially open.

Well according to many folks here, Apple fighting to keep iOS a "closed system" isn't good PR either, yet Apple doesn't seem to mind.

 

[darkpaw]

The thing is apple haven’t provided evidence that 15-30% is needed to support the store. Epic provided evidence that any fees above 3% is likely profitable, apple counter argued that it’s wrong but don’t know the revenue the AppStore brings in compared to costs. They didn’t feel the need to keep track.

Apple doesn't have to provide their costs; they're a business and that's their business, not ours.

Epic providing a figure that makes it look like Apple should cut their own charges isn't at all biased, right?

Did Epic take into account all the costs for: Staff developing the App Store and associated software (Xcode etc.)? Review staff? Legal & contracts staff? Tax compliance staff? Customer services? Marketing? Bandwidth? Payment processing? Threat removal? Developers coding the next version of iOS? Web developers writing the updates to their websites? Documentation staff writing help guides?

I really doubt that 3% would cover all that and still give them a profit. Besides, who are you (or I, or Epic) to say how much Apple can charge for their own services? "I think you should only make 3% profit on my iPhone 14 Pro Max, so I shall only pay you $800 instead of the $1,200 you've priced it at."

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Apple doesn't have to provide their costs; they're a business and that's their business, not ours.

Epic providing a figure that makes it look like Apple should cut their own charges isn't at all biased, right?

And apple failed to argue or provide evidence outside of saying: they don’t know if it’s true

Did Epic take into account all the costs for: Staff developing the App Store and associated software (Xcode etc.)? Review staff? Legal & contracts staff? Tax compliance staff? Customer services? Marketing? Bandwidth? Payment processing? Threat removal? Developers coding the next version of iOS? Web developers writing the updates to their websites? Documentation staff writing help guides?

Yes they did account for all these things, and have close to the same costs as developers of the Unreal engine 1-5, epic store and their own games for 30 years.

Apple asked steam for more detailed information than they was able to provide to prove epics claim false or even discredit it.

I really doubt that 3% would cover all that and still give them a profit. Besides, who are you (or I, or Epic) to say how much Apple can charge for their own services? "I think you should only make 3% profit on my iPhone 14 Pro Max, so I shall only pay you $800 instead of the $1,200 you've priced it at."

It very likely covers all of that. And there’s a crusial difference when a store forces you to use their IP and have close to 800% profit margins you can argue it’s reasonable to be allowed to use different sources that can compete on these profit margins.

And selling a phone.

 

[darkpaw]

Yes they did account for all these things, and have close to the same costs as developers of the Unreal engine 1-5, epic store and their own games for 30 years.

Epic's costs are the same as Apple's? Epic pay their staff the same as Apple? Their lawyers charge the same? And how much do Epic charge as commission in their store? Well, The Verge reported this:

"Epic takes 12 percent of the revenue from all games sold, giving developers 88 percent. Epic CEO Tim Sweeney tweeted that of the 12 percent Epic collects, the company nets about 5 percent as profit (which could rise to 6-7% with economies of scale)."

Apple said 83% of apps and 76% of games on the App Store are free, so there's no commission there, and Apple has to cover all the costs of having those apps and games (including customer service, bandwidth etc.).

Are there any free games on the Epic store, other than the one they give away each week? Does the developer choose to make that free, or does Epic decide?

It very likely covers all of that. And there’s a crusial difference when a store forces you to use their IP and have close to 800% profit margins you can argue it’s reasonable to be allowed to use different sources that can compete on these profit margins.

"Very likely covers all of that"? So you can't say they're the same after all? Where do you get the 800% profit margin from?

A reminder that the Epic games store is for games only. They don't have to deal with all the rest of the implications of the SDK and APIs for things that aren't game-related. Apple sells the hardware to run apps on, and has to maintain everything about it. Epic sells the games to run on hardware from other companies.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Epic's costs are the same as Apple's? Epic pay their staff the same as Apple? Their lawyers charge the same? And how much do Epic charge as commission in their store? Well, The Verge reported this:

"Epic takes 12 percent of the revenue from all games sold, giving developers 88 percent. Epic CEO Tim Sweeney tweeted that of the 12 percent Epic collects, the company nets about 5 percent as profit (which could rise to 6-7% with economies of scale)."

Apple said 83% of apps and 76% of games on the App Store are free, so there's no commission there, and Apple has to cover all the costs of having those apps and games (including customer service, bandwidth etc.).

Are there any free games on the Epic store, other than the one they give away each week? Does the developer choose to make that free, or does Epic decide?

Yes epic likely pays the same industry standard of California as apple. And Epic pays for free games, they pay for exclusives AND they allow alternative stores to be listed taking 0%. They allow games to use 3d party payment systems taking 0% as well.

The only thing they take 12% of is if developers use their payment system.

"Very likely covers all of that"? So you can't say they're the same after all? Where do you get the 800% profit margin from?

A reminder that the Epic games store is for games only. They don't have to deal with all the rest of the implications of the SDK and APIs for things that aren't game-related. Apple sells the hardware to run apps on, and has to maintain everything about it. Epic sells the games to run on hardware from other companies.

The epic store is for games and alternative stores. They produces the unreal engine APIs that must work on all hardware a PC, android, Xbox and PlayStation etc can run. It’s a more complicated API base than the limited apple hardware.

But the store is separate from hardware sales. AppleTV+ isn’t related to iPhone costs etc

 

[I7guy]

[...]

It very likely covers all of that. And there’s a crusial difference when a store forces you to use their IP and have close to 800% profit margins you can argue it’s reasonable to be allowed to use different sources that can compete on these profit margins.

And selling a phone.

UnlIke food, air and water, an iphone is a optional consumer product. Apple should be free to charge whatever they want and the market should speak for itself. Blackberry is a good example of what happens when the market speaks for itself. While like death and taxes, this regulation is coming, I don't have to be for it.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

UnlIke food, air and water, an iphone is a optional consumer product. Apple should be free to charge whatever they want and the market should speak for itself. Blackberry is a good example of what happens when the market speaks for itself. While like death and taxes, this regulation is coming, I don't have to be for it.

And like anything else apple doesn’t own the rights to everything that happens on consumers I devices.

Apple are free to charge whatever they want, and businesses should be able to use other solutions to reach the same consumers who can chose the best solution

 

[I7guy]

And like anything else apple doesn’t own the rights to everything that happens on consumers I devices.

Apple are free to charge whatever they want, and businesses should be able to use other solutions to reach the same consumers who can chose the best solution

You can do what we you want to the devices you buy.

And if you enter into a contract with a 3rd party dev and the commission is 30% and you don’t like go somewhere else.

Apple doesn’t have to help you however. And yes, businesses should use whatever means they want to reach customers. (It’s a shame that apple will be forced to allow sideloading and this will be an option) maybe the doomsday predictions will be true after all.

 

[darkpaw]

The only thing they take 12% of is if developers use their payment system.

Let's do the maths here...

If Epic take 12% and make 5% profit (as Tim Sweeney has said) that means their costs are 7%.

You've previously stated: "Epic provided evidence that any fees above 3% is likely profitable." Well, even their own CEO says their own costs are 7%, so which is it?

If the base costs are 7% and Epic are making 5% profit on 12% commission, why is Apple charging 15% to the vast majority of developers such a bad thing? Is 8% profit so bad?

You can't prove that Apple are paying the same as Epic, and given there are more APIs in Apple's SDK (because, as I said, they also have to cover apps rather than just games), there are higher costs involved. With more and more people using iPhones & iPads etc. there is increased bandwidth cost, more marketing, and so on.

I really don't see why 15% commission is such a bad deal? Is 30% a bad deal? That depends... Is it not likely that the larger developers who get the majority of revenue on the App Store are funding some of the improvements? (In which case, that's not actually profit; it's R&D.)

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Let's do the maths here...

If Epic take 12% and make 5% profit (as Tim Sweeney has said) that means their costs are 7%.

You've previously stated: "Epic provided evidence that any fees above 3% is likely profitable." Well, even their own CEO says their own costs are 7%, so which is it?

Epic have 1.000~ games tops and pays from their own pocket for free games and purchases exclusives. And still have 5% margins. And apple have 4 million apps, it’s then likely apple have hit a little different economy of scale and have lower costs

If the base costs are 7% and Epic are making 5% profit on 12% commission, why is Apple charging 15% to the vast majority of developers such a bad thing? Is 8% profit so bad?

Notice how apple did that for close to 99% of their revenue. The went from 30% cut to 15% cut and it made barely an impact on their revenue

You can't prove that Apple are paying the same as Epic, and given there are more APIs in Apple's SDK (because, as I said, they also have to cover apps rather than just games), there are higher costs involved. With more and more people using iPhones & iPads etc. there is increased bandwidth cost, more marketing, and so on.

Bandwidth is barely Pennie’s on the dollar for terabyte of data. Data caps as they exist in the USA doesn’t exist in EU.

And Apple Pay’s for their upload capacity and consumer pay for the download capacity they use.

And what marketing? And do you honestly believe iOS have more APIs than the unreal engine have? One of them have hundreds of millions of hardware variants to support while the other have a handful

I really don't see why 15% commission is such a bad deal? Is 30% a bad deal? That depends... Is it not likely that the larger developers who get the majority of revenue on the App Store are funding some of the improvements? (In which case, that's not actually profit; it's R&D.)

Well then allow competitive solutions then. Apple even removed the ability to purchase inside their appletv app in google play store because the cut was too much the moment google started to enforce it.

15% is a bad deal because you are banned from accepting other deals so it’s just an offer you can’t refuse

P.s the AppStore is notoriously bad. I would love to see the statistics of app discovery actually attributed to google searches instead of the AppStore

 

[ABronxBoy]

It isn't, though. Sideloading means bypassing the App Store and its inherent security measures, and that has wide-reaching ramifications for both Apple and iPhone owners.

macOS is a full operating system that has with it a full array of options to mitigate security and privacy threats. iOS can never do that due to the limiting architecture. They can’t be compared in that light.

Having been a programmer I can tell you there are few applications that can not be programmed. The problem becomes managers who have no idea of how to specify what they are looking for. THAT is the limiting factor in programming, your boss.

 

[deevey]

P.s the AppStore is notoriously bad. I would love to see the statistics of app discovery actually attributed to google searches instead of the AppStore

When the google search lands on your app in the store and facilitates the sale, its not bad when you factor in how much SEO might cost to get you a top tier result. So even if its a Google result, thats not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

When the google search lands on your app in the store and facilitates the sale, its not bad when you factor in how much SEO might cost to get you a top tier result. So even if its a Google result, thats not necessarily a bad thing.

It’s a critique of the failure of apples AppStore do so it’s basic function of letting me find apps. And the fact google search makes a better job without trying.

It just became worse when the iOS AppStore was removed from iTunes.

 

[pacalis]

Epic's "Game Launcher" on the PC is a piece of garbage, filled with ads, that you have to open to play games.

Epic is the one that is product tying. Epic is subsidizing their "store" with ads. Epic is the one with the horrible consumer experience? At least when I get my app of the appstore I don't have to open the store over and over again to launch my app.

It seems absurd to me to critique the appstore based on Epic's position.

 

[deevey]

It’s a critique of the failure of apples AppStore do so it’s basic function of letting me find apps. And the fact google search makes a better job without trying.

It just became worse when the iOS AppStore was removed from iTunes.

I've never had a problem finding the App I wanted to on the app store, where does it "fail"?

On some occasions I would find multiple apps that fit my need on the Appstore and look for youtube videos to help me narrow down my purchase, but thats not a failing on part of the App store.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Epic's "Game Launcher" on the PC is a piece of garbage, filled with ads, that you have to open to play games.

Epic is the one that is product tying. Epic is subsidizing their "store" with ads. Epic is the one with the horrible consumer experience? At least when I get my app of the appstore I don't have to open the store over and over again to launch my app.

It seems absurd to me to critique the appstore based on Epic's position.

when you criteque a thing you should't make things up. Epic game launcher is filled with exactly the same adds iOS appstore have, adds for other games. And you don't need to start the launcher to start the games. just like steam, you must be loged in to launch the games inthe backround. same wiht iOS you must be logedin to your Appstore account(apple ID) to launch any installed app on your iphone.

I've never had a problem finding the App I wanted to on the app store, where does it "fail"?

it failes in it's user friendly interface. Im forced to use my iphone to find iphone apps, im forced to use my iPad to find iPad apps. i cant use my computer to find the manymore as itunes no longer have this ability.

Look at how you can find games on steam and how friendly it is to the user experience and then compare to the ios device.

On some occasions I would find multiple apps that fit my need on the Appstore and look for youtube videos to help me narrow down my purchase, but thats not a failing on part of the App store.

i find that all the time, but almost never on my phone, i almost exclusivly use youtube or googel to find apps

 

[deevey]

when you criteque a thing you should't make things up. Epic game launcher is filled with exactly the same adds iOS appstore have, adds for other games. And you don't need to start the launcher to start the games. just like steam, you must be loged in to launch the games inthe backround. same wiht iOS you must be logedin to your Appstore account(apple ID) to launch any installed app on your iphone.

You don't need to be logged into launch an App, only to download them initially.

it failes in it's user friendly interface. Im forced to use my iphone to find iphone apps, im forced to use my iPad to find iPad apps. i cant use my computer to find the manymore as itunes no longer have this ability.

Look at how you can find games on steam and how friendly it is to the user experience and then compare to the ios device.

i find that all the time, but almost never on my phone, i almost exclusivly use youtube or googel to find apps

When I had that option, I ended up finding, and downloading apps that were no-longer supported on some of my devices (which also frustrated me no end).

Apple don't want to give you access to the downloaded .ipa's anymore (probably an Anti-Piracy measure).

However, yes there was ALOT of things I preferred in iTunes (backing up .ipa's included)