Apple Collaborating With LG to Develop iPads and MacBooks With Foldable OLED Displays and Ultra-Thin Cover Glass

[Tozovac]

So you always have to have a keyboard with you? Boy that sure makes the iPad more convenient than the MacBook Air, which weighs less than the 13” iPP and magic keyboard.

Goodness gracious, are you serious?

Your 12.9" iPad Pro can dual boot, ok? Weighs the same or nearly the same as the current 12.9 inch iPad Pro.

Just like when you move around with your MacBook, you travel with your MaciPad & keyboard when you need the keyboard.

Or just like when you travel around with your iPad, you then choose to not tote your keyboard around if you don't need it or want it.

Assuming you have both an iPad and Mac, how is juggling/having both easier than having a convertible option described above?

What are we not communicating here?

 

[Tozovac]

macOS is not coming to the iPad.

Hold that thought and let's talk in a decade. Just like iOS apps aren't coming to an (M1) Mac ever.

The only reason it won't is because Apple can't afford any cannibalization hit/risk to steady shareholder growth.

 

[chucker23n1]

Hold that thought and let's talk in a decade.

In the meantime, get a MacBook?

 

[darngooddesign]

Goodness gracious, are you serious?

Your 12.9" iPad Pro can dual boot, ok? Weighs the same or nearly the same as the current 12.9 inch iPad Pro.

Just like when you move around with your MacBook, you travel with your MaciPad & keyboard when you need the keyboard.

Or just like when you travel around with your iPad, you then choose to not tote your keyboard around if you don't need it or want it.

Assuming you have both an iPad and Mac, how is juggling/having both easier than having a convertible option described above?

What are we not communicating here?

It’s not happening until Mac OS support 100% touch input right down to the window traffic lights having larger hit targets. Microsoft has been at this gig a while and there are still holes in their touch support.

 

[darngooddesign]

Additionally, MacOS would have to support portrait on the iPad because WCAG and Accessibility guidelines say you can’t have orientation locks. Mac OS and Mac is apps simply aren’t built fir small screen portrait mode. So until new Mac OS betas show support for all this, it’s not happening.

 

[Tozovac]

In the meantime, get a MacBook?

In the meantime, I have an M1 MacBook Air and 12.9 non-M1 iPad Pro. Sure would be nice to have a 13" M1 iPad Pro that can dual boot to either MacOS or iPadOS on one device that can act as either a standalone iPad, an iPad with keyboard, or a MacBook (i.e., iPad with keyboard running MacOS).

 

[Tozovac]

Additionally, MacOS would have to support portrait on the iPad because WCAG and Accessibility guidelines say you can’t have orientation locks. Mac OS and Mac is apps simply aren’t built fir small screen portrait mode. So until new Mac OS betas show support for all this, it’s not happening.

You mean like when you use Mac apps on a 13" MacBook screen?

You mean like when you hook up a MacBook to a monitor in portrait mode and close the MacBook?

 

[Tozovac]

It’s not happening until Mac OS support 100% touch input right down to the window traffic lights having larger hit targets. Microsoft has been at this gig a while and there are still holes in their touch support.

Ahem...in MacOS boot mode, it's non-touchscreen.

In iPadOS boot mode, it's...an iPad.

I may have not stated that but that'd be my preference. I have a touchscreen windows laptop for work and ever ever touch the screen when using mouse/keyboard for productivity work. Just two different worlds, two different ways to interface. Like radio & television. One does not displace the other.

 

[chucker23n1]

In the meantime, I have an M1 MacBook Air and 12.9 non-M1 iPad Pro. Sure would be nice to have a 13" M1 iPad Pro that can dual boot to either MacOS or iPadOS on one device that can act as either a standalone iPad, an iPad with keyboard, or a MacBook (i.e., iPad with keyboard running MacOS).

Yeah, it would be, in the dream scenario, but not necessarily in the reality.

Running iOS apps on M1 is "nice" in that it's possible at all, but it's a far cry from a good experience, let alone one that feels Mac-like. Running macOS on an iPad would nice in that you'd no longer have to get a Mac or take it with you, but in practice might be a lot more of a pain than you think.

Ahem...in MacOS boot mode, it's non-touchscreen.

That makes it even less useful.

 

[chucker23n1]

You mean like when you use Mac apps on a 13" MacBook screen?

You mean like when you hook up a MacBook to a monitor in portrait mode and close the MacBook?

Yes, like that, but worse.

See, macOS was already very cramped on the 11-inch Air, and maybe that's part of why that was discontinued. It would be far more cramped on a device that size that's portrait, because suddenly you're down to just 834 horizontal points on the 11-inch Pro. Even more brutal on the mini: 744 points. For the menu bar. Including status items. And the dock. (The dock already looks dumb on the mini when in portrait. Imagine that problem, but far greater.)

External monitors in portrait mode tend to have far larger resolutions, so the problem isn't quite the same.

 

[Tozovac]

Are you really not seeing any value in a concept of a dual boot device as in, boot in either "A" mode or "B" mode where "A" mode is booting as an iPad in iPadOS with access to only iPad apps, which you can manipulate just like one does with an iPad (touch, or Smart Keyboard portfolio, or magic keyboard)....with an option to be able to shutdown then restart/boot in "B" mode which boots as a MacBook or Mac mini or iMac, with the device either on a stick like an iMac, or with a keyboard like an iPad Smart Keyboard Folio or Magic Keyboard, and where you're limited to landscape mode, to try to be more clear for you. Imagine buying an iMac where the iPad-looking device undocks and could re-boot as an iPad?

See no value in such a scenario, really?

If I was not being clear before and you thought I was referring to a single-boot mode that offers access to either Mac or iOS apps at once, then that is not what I meant. FWIW I rarely run iOS apps on my M1 Mac mini or MBA. If I do it's just for a moment or two, to check something. They are two completely different operating systems with different advantages and trade-offs. One is much better for simple consumption, the other is much better for complex interaction and productivity.

 

[darngooddesign]

You mean like when you use Mac apps on a 13" MacBook screen?

You mean like when you hook up a MacBook to a monitor in portrait mode and close the MacBook?

External monitors are much larger so portrait mode presents no issues. The 11" iPads in portrait mode are significantly narrower than the 11" MacBook Air, and OSX was already crowded on it.

Mac's natively only offer landscape, therefore there is no AX requirement for portrait mode. iPads offer two orientations and therefore can not lock orientation to landscape.

I see value in a MacPad, but not if it only happens with a physical keyboard. For it to offer value to me it has to offer touch support as well, and that's not going to happen until MacOS is rebuilt as a hybrid OS.

 

[chucker23n1]

Are you really not seeing any value in a concept of a dual boot device as in, boot in either "A" mode or "B" mode where "A" mode is booting as an iPad in iPadOS with access to only iPad apps,

I see "value" in a lot of things that are ultimately just nerdy entertainment.

I saw value in OpenDoc, too. What I never quite saw was an answer to: OK, can you make an actual app, with OpenDoc components, that is awesome to use and that people will prefer over existing ones? (Turns out: no.)

And similarly, I used Windows 8 extensively from its early previews all the way throughout the point of Windows 8.1, where they had started undoing some of the damage. It was bad, because "no compromises!" was really "a lot of compromises".

which you can manipulate just like one does with an iPad (touch, or Smart Keyboard portfolio, or magic keyboard)....with an option to be able to shutdown then restart/boot in "B" mode which boots as a MacBook or Mac mini or iMac,

In 1994, we had a Power Macintosh 6100. When you hit cmd-return, it would boot from Mac OS into Windows 3.11. How did it do that? It had a whole additional daughterboard with an x86 on it.

It was very interesting from an engineering point of view, and mildly useful when you really had to do that, but also an utterly terrible, un-Apple-like user experience. And that was even better than what you proposed, since both machines could run simultaneously (although you could only see and interact with one at a time); you did not have to shut down.

If Apple really does, as you propose, bring up "you can now run macOS on an iPad! All you gotta do is dual-boot, and oh, touch does not work" as a grand new feature at a WWDC, I'll really worry that they've jumped the shark and/or gone back to their poor 1990s' decision-making, with all its "just because you can really doesn't mean you should" warts.

A company that does that thinks that this is a good tablet:

Rather than wait several more years until they can make a good tablet, which became the iPad.

 

[Tozovac]

I see "value" in a lot of things that are ultimately just nerdy entertainment.

I saw value in OpenDoc, too. What I never quite saw was an answer to: OK, can you make an actual app, with OpenDoc components, that is awesome to use and that people will prefer over existing ones? (Turns out: no.)

And similarly, I used Windows 8 extensively from its early previews all the way throughout the point of Windows 8.1, where they had started undoing some of the damage. It was bad, because "no compromises!" was really "a lot of compromises".





In 1994, we had a Power Macintosh 6100. When you hit cmd-return, it would boot from Mac OS into Windows 3.11. How did it do that? It had a whole additional daughterboard with an x86 on it.

It was very interesting from an engineering point of view, and mildly useful when you really had to do that, but also an utterly terrible, un-Apple-like user experience. And that was even better than what you proposed, since both machines could run simultaneously (although you could only see and interact with one at a time); you did not have to shut down.

If Apple really does, as you propose, bring up "you can now run macOS on an iPad! All you gotta do is dual-boot, and oh, touch does not work" as a grand new feature at a WWDC, I'll really worry that they've jumped the shark and/or gone back to their poor 1990s' decision-making, with all its "just because you can really doesn't mean you should" warts.

A company that does that thinks that this is a good tablet:

Rather than wait several more years until they can make a good tablet, which became the iPad.

Ok that's fine. In your world, you can purchase and tote around a separate iPad and MacBook.

In my funny little world, I'll hopefully one day enjoy toting around one device that looks exactly like an iPad Pro 12.9 for which I can boot as an iPad and treat it just like an iPad Pro 12.9, or in one quick motion and click, I can connect to a Smart Keyboard w/trackpad with a few built-in ports and turn it basically into a MacBook Pro.

 

[jlc1978]

In the meantime, I have an M1 MacBook Air and 12.9 non-M1 iPad Pro. Sure would be nice to have a 13" M1 iPad Pro that can dual boot to either MacOS or iPadOS on one device that can act as either a standalone iPad, an iPad with keyboard, or a MacBook (i.e., iPad with keyboard running MacOS).

You already have that. MacOS can run iPad apps; as you point out.

Take a look at the latest iMacs and tell me they don't look like in iPad on a stick.

With nice ports on the back and seperate keyboard/mouse/trackpad.

Now imagine a 12.9 inch M1 iPad that can boot as either an iPad with iPadOS, or as a Mac with OSX. One that you could use as a 12.9 inch M1 iPad in iPadOS mode, or one that you could dock to a Magic Keyboard or iMac-like stand and run in Monterey OS.

Ever try running an iOS app on an M1 Mac mini or MacBook? So there's already some cross-pollination.

How is a dual-boot MaciPad a mediocre combination?

Because of design tradeoffs. Off the top of my head:

You'd have to add a bunch of ports to the iPad for it to serve as a useful MacOS device, so now you have a thick iPad. If you put the ports on the keyboard you need a way to get reliable high speed data connections, Bluetooth won't hack it.

Notch on the side of the iPad since MacOS is a landscape only OS; which means a black streak down the side of the iPad when in iPad mode.

Have to detach keyboard to use it as an iPad in portrait mode; meaning finding a place to store the keyboard.

We'd be whining about how "it doesn't have X" or "Why is data transfer so slow" etc. due to the design tradeoffs.

If you use an Apple Pencil you're switching between multiple input devices - mouse/trackpad/finger/pencil at each switch.

A better solution is to make iPad OS robust enough and apps full featured enough for the iPad to replace the Air at the low end. No MacOS, just a small, highly portable device.

Fingerprints all over the display in MacOS mode.

Simple, you take your keyboard along with your MaciPad. Just like you'd travel with your MacBook and its keyboard. Sure would be nice to travel with just your MaciPad instead of your iPad and MacBook, no?

No, because they serve 2 different functions. Until and if Apple decides to converge the two OS's I doubt you'll see a dual boot device.

Ahem...in MacOS boot mode, it's non-touchscreen.

In iPadOS boot mode, it's...an iPad.

What a poor human factor design idea. You're expecting the user to remember the mode so as not to try to touch the screen in MacOS mode, and thus frustrating them for no reason.

The iPad is a nice computer but's not a Mac.

 

[chucker23n1]

Notch on the side of the iPad since MacOS is a landscape only OS; which means a black streak down the side of the iPad when in iPad mode.

Hmm, iPads don't have a notch, though; instead, the bezel is thicker.

We'd be whining about how "it doesn't have X"

Yep. Doesn't matter which compromises Apple picks; a lot will be unhappy with them.

A better solution is to make iPad OS robust enough and apps full featured enough for the iPad to replace the Air at the low end. No MacOS, just a small, highly portable device.

Exactly.

Unfortunately, they've been… rather slow at that.

 

[Tozovac]

You'd have to add a bunch of ports to the iPad for it to serve as a useful MacOS device, so now you have a thick iPad. If you put the ports on the keyboard you need a way to get reliable high speed data connections, Bluetooth won't hack it.

Nope. iPad Pro 12.9 stays as-is. Ports are on the smart keyboard you'd attach to "make it into a Macbook."

Notch on the side of the iPad since MacOS is a landscape only OS; which means a black streak down the side of the iPad when in iPad mode.

Not necessarily. Only you assume a notch. Could either move the camera to the bezel, or by then the camera could be under the screen in our thinking-forward scenario here.

Have to detach keyboard to use it as an iPad in portrait mode; meaning finding a place to store the keyboard.

Yep! Remember, use the iPad in iPad mode as you use an iPad.

We'd be whining about how "it doesn't have X" or "Why is data transfer so slow" etc. due to the design tradeoffs.

So says you. you can whine then if you want.

If you use an Apple Pencil you're switching between multiple input devices - mouse/trackpad/finger/pencil at each switch.

Great! Bring it on.

A better solution is to make iPad OS robust enough and apps full featured enough for the iPad to replace the Air at the low end. No MacOS, just a small, highly portable device.

Nope, not better. Two different OS's targeted for two different purposes. It's why Apple Car Play does not look like an iPad mini. Why radio <> tv.

Fingerprints all over the display in MacOS mode.

Excuses. We seem to live with fingerprints on our iPads, no?

No, because they serve 2 different functions. Until and if Apple decides to converge the two OS's I doubt you'll see a dual boot device.

Exactly! And on ONE device. Nice and efficient.

What a poor human factor design idea. You're expecting the user to remember the mode so as not to try to touch the screen in MacOS mode, and thus frustrating them for no reason.

We seem to survive now don't we? The MacBook OS would look like it looks now. if you reach out to touch it now, you'll do it then.

The iPad is a nice computer but's not a Mac.

Exactly!! iOS can never become a productivity-focused Mac OS.

So tell me, do you wish you still had an iPod, and no music app on your iPhone?

Or a separate camera to tote around and no camera app on your iPhone?

Carry around a pager, and no iMessages app on your Phone?

Do you also feel there's no value in virtual machines like Parallels? Better to have a separate Mac and PC, rather than be able to boot a Windows experience on a Mac?

 

[Tozovac]

Yep. Doesn't matter which compromises Apple picks; a lot will be unhappy with them.

Interesting logic. So Apple shouldn't offer something since someone is likely to complain about it?


Here's a quick ask: say you bought a current iMac, which I say looks an awful lot like an iPad on a stick. Nice large screen.

Pretend for a moment the screen undocked from its stand like an iPad easily disconnects from the iPad Magic Keyboard. If Apple offered as a choice during ordering a $0 option to have the ability to optionally boot your iMac screen as an iPad (with iPadOS) would you take the $0 option, or pass on it?

 

[chucker23n1]

Nope. iPad Pro 12.9 stays as-is. Ports are on the smart keyboard you'd attach to "make it into a Macbook."

Like they said, it's hard to do that at high bandwidth and low latency.

Exactly!! iOS can never become a productivity-focused Mac OS.

iPadOS has been "productivity-focused" from the start, from Apple's point of view.

So tell me, do you wish you still had an iPod, and no music app on your iPhone?

I actually miss some of the iPod's interface, yes. It was excellent at scrubbing through collections, and its form factor also made more sense than an iPhone. Going for a run with an iPhone is awkward. Doing so with an iPod nano was fine.

Which is why Apple added the Apple Watch — that one's just perfect for workouts, and in a broader sense, portable music playback (if you have Bluetooth headphones). So it is sort of the true iPod successor, for some people.

They're not going to merge everything into the Apple Watch either. Nor are they going to merge Apple Watch functionality back into the phone.

Do you also feel there's no value in virtual machines like Parallels? Better to have a separate Mac and PC, rather than be able to boot a Windows experience on a Mac?

As someone who uses VMware all day, there's absolutely value in it, but it's also hard to deny that running Windows natively has benefits, especially now that Macs are on ARM.

Interesting logic. So Apple shouldn't offer something since someone is likely to complain about it?

I'm not sure what makes you put up that strawman.

Here's a quick ask: say you bought a current iMac, which I say looks an awful lot like an iPad on a stick. Nice large screen.

Yes, you've said this many a time in the thread now, and, yes, the M1 in an iMac is the same Soc as the M1 in an iPad Pro, and that both devices are mostly a big screen with a logic board inside.

I'm not sure why you keep pointing that out.

Pretend for a moment the screen undocked from its stand like an iPad easily disconnects from the iPad Magic Keyboard. If Apple offered as a choice during ordering a $0 option to have the ability to optionally boot your iMac screen as an iPad (with iPadOS) would you take the $0 option, or pass on it?

I would take it, play around with it, have a good laugh, and then dread how utterly misguided 2020s' Apple has become.

Do you also want iMacs to gain a kitchen sink?

 

[darngooddesign]

Nope. iPad Pro 12.9 stays as-is. Ports are on the smart keyboard you'd attach to "make it into a Macbook."

Sure, but now you're thicker than just carrying an iPad and an MacBook Air; the current 13"+MK is as thick as the 13" MBP, increasing keyboard thickness for ports now makes it thicker than a MBA and iPP with folio case. The benefit of both devices is that you can use them simultaneously, either separately or with together with SideCar. The keyboard itself would need to be pretty heavy because to fit the Fn key row and give a useful trackpad size for MacOS the iPad will get pushed back and its weight needs to keep the combo from tipping backwards.

The iPad, which needs at least 16GB RAM, but since apple doesn't do 24GB realistically 32GB would be the config, so it can suspend MacOS without depriving iPadOS of RAM, would need an artificial limit to how much RAM Mac apps can consume because its really easy to exceed 8GB with regular workload and browsing. If you didn't suspend MacOS while using the iPad you'd end up spending a lot of time waiting for both iPadOS and MacOS to boot up and shutdown, and then you need to open all your work files again. Sounds frustrating and a sub-par experience. Fast user switching is a superior user experience compared to the old method of only one account running at a time and changing accounts took less time than starting and stopping entire OSes with their user account.

 

[chucker23n1]

The iPad, which needs at least 16GB RAM so it can suspend MacOS without depriving iPadOS of RAM,

I think they're saying dual-boot.

Which, mind you, I think would be ridiculous. Anything Apple would offer is far more likely to be a VM-like solution. A bit like Classic was in Mac OS X on PowerPC.

But if it were dual-boot, it wouldn't need that much RAM.

Fast user switching is a superior user experience compared to the old method of only one account running at a time

It is, although it's fairly buggy these days. Could use a little polish. Especially the Continuity stuff seems broken.

 

[darngooddesign]

I think they're saying dual-boot.

Which, mind you, I think would be ridiculous. Anything Apple would offer is far more likely to be a VM-like solution. A bit like Classic was in Mac OS X on PowerPC.

But if it were dual-boot, it wouldn't need that much RAM.



It is, although it's fairly buggy these days. Could use a little polish. Especially the Continuity stuff seems broken.

Switching between both running OSes is a superior experience, just like fast user switching is superior to logging in an out of single user accounts.

 

[chucker23n1]

Switching between both running OSes is a superior experience, just like fast user switching is superior to logging in an out of single user accounts.

It is — but like you said, it requires more RAM and isn't what @Tozovac is proposing.

 

[darngooddesign]

It is — but like you said, it requires more RAM and isn't what @Tozovac is proposing.

Tozovac is proposing an inferior user experience.

 

[chucker23n1]

Tozovac is proposing an inferior user experience.

Right.

I don't think it's possible to do "iPad but also runs Mac" without a mediocre UX, without a lot of changes to macOS, and possibly also to the iPad hardware.

And that's why it hasn't happened.