Apple Comments on Real

[Analog Kid]

Another likely consequence is that, although some record companies have indicated publicly they support Real's approach, in private they will be mad at Apple for providing (in their eyes) faulty DRM. Expect them to lobby strongly for tighter DRM next time they negotiate with Apple.

Nahh... nothing faulty about it. They don't care who sells their stuff as long as it's by their rules.

If the labels don't like the scheme, they wouldn't license their material to Real. If the rumors surrounding the Europe iTMS were true, I don't think they'd mind anything breaking down Apple's dominance.

 

[Analog Kid]

The more I watch this, the more I realize how bad this is for Apple. I don't think they can legitimately win a lawsuit. That means they're going to be saddled with supporting Real's hacked DRM from now until the end of time unless they just go ahead and license FairPlay.

If they break Harmony now, it looks bad, it looks petty, people are going to complain about being roped into iTMS (as we're already hearing on this forum), and they'll come out with Harmony II.

If they don't stop it now, they're going to get into a situation down the line where, for example, FairPlay gets cracked and they have to change DRM schemes. If they don't come out of that still playing Real's music, people are going to be really pissed that the just lost their music investment.

No, this is bad for Apple all the way around...

 

[HenMaster6000]

Real has been saying that they created Harmony not through reverse engineering but by using "publicly available means". What are those means? Does any one know or is willing to make a guess? I was thinking it might have been the Windows iTunes SDK that apple released a couple months ago. Thoughts?

 

[paulwesley]

precedent

Regardless of legality, in the realm of public relations Apple is working against a long precedent of interoperability between softare and hardware. This is in both computers where hardware makers allow other companies to run their software on their machines (OS aside...), and in the music industry where a stereo will play CDs made by any company. By limiting the only DRM format that the ipod will play to its own fairplay, and not licensing it to others, they are breaking this precedent of interoperability. "Closed system" No one else can play their own DRM format on the iPod, no one else can sell songs in Apple's

This works fine until it becomes a public relations liability... when Joe Public resent the lack of choice and starts buying other players, and visiting other stores. This seems to be the game Real is playing, and it will become a bigger deal when MS and Sony get in the market.

It seems to me that the only reason apple wouldn't level the playing field and license fairplay is that they are afraid they can't compete in the long run without the store helping out the player and vice versa. They are milking their advantage as long as they can, and hoping they can compete with the big players when this market becomes commodified...

I just hope it won't backfire on them. They can always license at any point, the tough part will be the timing. If MS starts selling players for half the cost and/or songs for $0.50 ... who knows...

 

[cheekyspanky]

In other news Microsoft announced today that after a year of hard work and "the Longhorn smokescreen" they will be releasing Mac OSX Panther for windows instead. Codenamed Windows OSXP Panther, Microsoft admits to following in the footsteps of RealNetworks who recently made their way onto Apple's iPod using reverse engineering. "We knew Longhorn was sh*t, so we bought a copy of OSX reverse engineered it and recompiled it to run on windows, we think our customers will be very pleased" Microsoft also admits adding system instability, more frequent kernel panics, and a user favorite, the blue screen of death.

Steve Jobs was unavailable for comment since he had just sh@t on himself.

Wouldn't it be more like Microsoft releasing Windows on the Mac platform after looking at the intricacies of the Mac and then altering Windows to make it work? As opposed to releasing OS X on their own platform...?

 

[dizastor]

Wouldn't it be more like Microsoft releasing Windows on the Mac platform after looking at the intricacies of the Mac and then altering Windows to make it work? As opposed to releasing OS X on their own platform...?

nope, it would be like Microsoft asking Apple to license them the OSX technology, and when Apple denies their request they go ahead and do it anyway.

 

[blufire]

Hmm, I don't think Real is so bad as you all say...

I read (in articles when Real announced Harmony) that Real Networks' CEO had attempted to contact Steve Jobs several times about licensing FairPlay before going ahead with iPod compatibility in Harmony. Therefore I think Real is not COMPLETELY in the wrong. Furthermore, Apple reverse-engineered the original Mac OS and the mouse from Xerox PARC's project. "Better to be a pirate than to be in the navy." It's too bad that Apple can no longer afford to hold its rebellious principles in light of today's tangled legal system.

That said, I can understand Apple's reluctance to license FairPlay. The only reason Apple would feel threatened is because then people would have an alternative to the iTMS to purchase songs. And that circumvents Steve Jobs' strategy. iPod + iTMS = income. However, Apple COULD have at least replied to Real's CEO. sigh.

 

[bubbagump]

Well, if Apple really wants to lay the smack down on Real, I am guessing they could implement some sort of public key encryption thing, where by the very serial number of the iPod Apple could encode all purchases from ITMS for that iPod. Hence, without this encryption key, no one could break into the ITMS service. Oh, an I guess they could update the keys every few months with a new firmware upgrade, no there would be no chance of Real every breaking this. To kick this off, Apple would up the bitrate on all of their songs, with some marketing talk that one needs the new firmware to get the higher bitrate songs on to his or her iPod. This encryption would only affect play on the iPod, and not screw up anything else.

Or, Apple could just forget about this, up their bitrate, and pump out a lot of advertising, realizing no one have ever heard of Real outside of the geek community there days.

MrBubba

 

[jocknerd]

I absolutly love apple, but here they are wrong. I can see history repeating itself again in this venture. I would love to think that everyone would want to buy apples DRM. But the truth is that we really need to have "open" standards when it comes to music. Period. I don't have to figure out which LP I can play on my stereo, the same goes with tapes, or CD's. We need an open standard and apple needs to be willing to work with everyone to get that to happen. Until then digital is still too crippled to be mass marketed. mp3 is popular because it works everywhere. too bad record labels have a bad taste in their mouth for it. But there should be no compromise on the users part.

Totally agree with you. Music SHOULD use open standards. I'll go further. When I say open standards, I don't mean Apple's definition for AAC. I don't consider AAC to be open. If I want to write an encoder and use AAC, and I have to spend $20,000 to license AAC, its not open in my opinion. The only true open formats to my knowledge are Ogg Vorbis, FLAC, and a couple other lossless formats. MP3 is not even open. They were the first, but the Frauhofer Institute is now licensing MP3. So if it requires you to purchase a license, once again its not open. Ogg Vorbis is being used in most of the games today. And it runs on just about every platform. But wait, Apple doesn't want to support it. It seems that Apple went to bed with Dolby and want to push AAC and whatever this lossless format they've come up with.

I, for one, have stopped purchasing music off of iTMS. I just get an uneasy feeling knowing my music has digital rights on it. And I won't be buying any CD's that have copy protection on them either.

 

[scibry]

Let's wait and see what Harmony really is.

Meanwhile, look at how Apple has created perhaps the most successful $1 store of today.

 

[Artimus]

If it was Microsoft bullying someone like this you'd be on them like hyenas on a dead zebra. This is ridiculous. You pay 400 bucks and are then forced to only buy music from them. What happened to Apple's constant anti-Big Brother ideals? Gone. This is no worse than M$.

 

[Viv]

Let's wait and see what Harmony really is.

Meanwhile, look at how Apple has created perhaps the most successful $1 store of today.

$1 store that made me laugh thats freacking priceless, thankyou lol

Viv

 

[Viv]

If it was Microsoft bullying someone like this you'd be on them like hyenas on a dead zebra. This is ridiculous. You pay 400 bucks and are then forced to only buy music from them. What happened to Apple's constant anti-Big Brother ideals? Gone. This is no worse than M$.

Ok too many beers but come on this is one extreme to the other, we have the leading design company at one end and we have the crapest of the crap companys at the other.

Real are crap with a capital Crap how can we tolerate them being on our IPods?

Viv

 

[mustang_dvs]

By your faulty logic, Samba in MacOS X is Microsoft's intellectual property.

A moronic noob shooting their mouth off about something they know nothing about. What an original concept.

Samba is an Open-Source implementation of the Microsoft-established standard known as the Common Internet File System (CIFS). Samba, which only operates on UNIX-based systems, allows *NIX OS's to interface with Windows clients and servers via the Server Message Block (SMB) protocol, a portion of Microsoft's CIFS standard. It doesn't compete with Microsoft's software in an MS OS and it didn't rely on Microsoft's codebase as a functional basis.

Unlike Harmony, which competes with Apple's own technology by relying on Apple's intellectual property, Samba allowed Microsoft to expand it's user base, by allowing it's servers and clients to work side-by-side with UNIX servers and workstations.

Furthermore, Samba is free... Real wants to charge a fee for other software and hardware vendors to use Harmony to perform and end-run around Apple's technology.

MacMinute: RealNetworks in discussion to license Harmony
CNN Money: Apple's Real Problem (Real's Licensing Plans)

 

[mustang_dvs]

Furthermore, Apple reverse-engineered the original Mac OS and the mouse from Xerox PARC's project. "Better to be a pirate than to be in the navy." It's too bad that Apple can no longer afford to hold its rebellious principles in light of today's tangled legal system.

Once and for all: Apple didn't copy anything from Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center.

Yes, the Xerox Alto used a graphical interface and mouse, as did the later Xerox Star (aka the 8010), which also introduced the basic concept of the desktop metaphor and local ethernet-based networking. Xerox's GUI did not allow windows to overlap, users to manipulate objects and files within the OS via the mouse, nor did it provide a fixed menu bar. Furthermore, the Xerox's PARC OS systems were highly dependent upon the use of mouse button 'chording' and was not exactly what one would term 'user friendly.'

Yes, the broad concepts found in Xerox's developments did influence Jobs and the Lisa OS, and were a very basic influence on the Macintosh Operating System, but to say that they copied, stole or reverse engineered Xerox's work belies a basic misunderstanding of the facts.

• Xerox Alto Archive
• Xerox Alto OS (with pictures)
• Xerox PARC history
• Other Alto Resources

 

[JGowan]

The more I watch this, the more I realize how bad this is for Apple ... If they break Harmony now, it looks bad, it looks petty ... No, this is bad for Apple all the way around...

I don't think it looks as bad as you think it does. I said HIP HIP HURRAY when I saw Apple's retort to these goings-on. And when they gave REAL and REAL's customers fair warning about getting locked out of the ipod, I was so happy that they weren't going to be put over the barrel on this.

Whatever is said, REAL is playing dirty pool. Firstly, it was IDIOTIC for REAL to try and "negotiate" via an EMAIL and then was even trying to play hard ball even at that point (again, via an EMAIL!) How STUPID! Now for them to go ahead with this even though Apple is going to make sure that their cheese gets left out in the wind, it's just PATHETIC!

No,... I think it's Apple's DUTY to stand up and say NO! Say NO to REAL and say NO to their customers. REAL's attitude is "we're doing this with or without you" and Apple is RIGHT in saying "We'll just see about that"!

The last time I checked, Steve Jobs was still in charge of Apple Computer. Not some wannabe nerd from REAL.

:: seeing red!! ::

 

[superbovine]

Good thing Apple started out with making Blue boxes.

 

[vienna@unc.edu]

I see a lot of opinions about what people should be able to do with their own iPods. On the one hand I agree that if you own an iPod, then it is yours and you should be able to do as you wish with it. On the other hand most people knew when they bought their iPods that they only worked with one download service, and they bought them anyway. It's not even as though at the time of purchase that there was even the possibility of other online music stores becoming available to iPods in the future (unless you work for Real in which case you might have had insider info.). So with that in mind isn't complaining after the fact like 'moving the goal posts' - hey, it was good enough when I bought my iPod but it's not now.

Funny thing is that all the people who are complaining about being tied to iTMS, do you think you'll be better off using Real's alternative ?

The people who are complaining about the iPod being a closed system have a point but Real's Harmony does not open it. It only open's it to Real and potentially anyone that they license it to. If Real really believed that closed systems were a bad thing then they should give Harmony technology away as freeware so anyone could use it for anything without license fees.

As it is, Real just looks like a hypocrite who are attempting to piggy back off Apple's iPod success. I like Apple but I don't believe they 'walk on water' - but this Real thing just leaves a bad taste.

 

[NeoMayhem]

Apple needs to reverse engineer the real audio/video formats and make them opensource and part of quicktime. Then we can all laugh when real threatens apple. Hahaha...

 

[Windowlicker]

In other news Microsoft announced today that after a year of hard work and "the Longhorn smokescreen" they will be releasing Mac OSX Panther for windows instead. Codenamed Windows OSXP Panther, Microsoft admits to following in the footsteps of RealNetworks who recently made their way onto Apple's iPod using reverse engineering. "We knew Longhorn was sh*t, so we bought a copy of OSX reverse engineered it and recompiled it to run on windows, we think our customers will be very pleased" Microsoft also admits adding system instability, more frequent kernel panics, and a user favorite, the blue screen of death.

Steve Jobs was unavailable for comment since he had just sh@t on himself.

haha! how did you come up with that? you made my morning so much brighter

 

[Loge]

Anyone know what rights you get with these tracks purchased from Real? - I mean how many computers can you play them on, how many times you can burn to CD etc.

 

[SandyL]

When did this happen? Last I head, Apple did pursue legal action to shut down their US server, forcing them to re-host in India.

Did it move back since then?

Apple also forced them off the server in India, and shortly after that they moved back to a server in the US. About 3 months ago.

 

[SandyL]

A moronic noob shooting their mouth off about something they know nothing about. What an original concept.

Samba is an Open-Source implementation of the Microsoft-established standard known as the Common Internet File System (CIFS). Samba, which only operates on UNIX-based systems, allows *NIX OS's to interface with Windows clients and servers via the Server Message Block (SMB) protocol, a portion of Microsoft's CIFS standard. It doesn't compete with Microsoft's software in an MS OS and it didn't rely on Microsoft's codebase as a functional basis.

There's no evidence that Harmony relies on Apple's codebase as a functional basis.

Unlike Harmony, which competes with Apple's own technology by relying on Apple's intellectual property, Samba allowed Microsoft to expand it's user base, by allowing it's servers and clients to work side-by-side with UNIX servers and workstations.

Which Apple copyrighted code or patented technique does Harmony rely on and thus infringe? Your failure to point this out makes you the noob shooting your mouth off about something you know nothing about.

 

[Windowlicker]

No Real have got fed up being left out in the cold (anyone actually bought a track off their store ?), and have decided to forcibly break and enter the iPod party. Oh, and the iPod isn't 'closed' - it plays MP3 just fine thanks. Just that you need to use Apple's DRM - and Apple aint giving you it.

i just went to the realnetworks site and were unable to even find a link to their music store :Q ....they wanna sell music? maybe better put the link on the front page if they want customers. now there's just a link for consumers and under the link are descriptions that include "music store".

the store is dead already. i'm curious to see how many tracks they get sold in one year ;D

 

[montex]

Real's attempt to hack the iPod is a desperate ploy by a dying company. It's sad, actually, watching them wither away. I may have felt differently about this if the Real video player didn't suck so bad.