Apple Confirms 2018 MacBook Pro Keyboard Has 'Membrane' to 'Prevent Debris From Entering the Butterfly Mechanism'

[Tozovac]

Apple did not pioneer that with our mobile products - it was Windows and Android. In fact, the entire skeuomorphic debate was hotly contested within Apple, with Steve Jobs being the biggest advocate for it. It wasn't until Jobs passing that they decided to abandon their strict skeuomorphism, which I believe was a bad idea. Apple went in that direction after everyone else was going in that direction.

I agree with everything you said. I didn't say Apple was first but said once Apple shifted, all the lemmings designers in the world followed. First time I saw Microsoft's blue and white flat Metro interface I thought it was a hoax. Nobody or company could be that dumb to create such a platform. Trouble is, the perfect storm occurred of Apple’s winners being around for a while, marketing feeling it was time for a change, and Steve no longer around to reign in Jony J-Ive who realized it was his chance to go really to the flat/white Uber-minimalist side of things that he so favors. Couple that with Apple's being the cool kid that everyone wants to follow, and we're in the awful design mess we're in now, where most websites and apps are IMHO just awfully unintuitive and cumbersome, with all the hidden functions behind hamburger and gear icons, just to have a "clean" interface. Bah, all crap.

That's because over-complication was one of the biggest usability problems with computers since its introduction to the masses. You are ignorant sir. I agree with you Apple is going a bit too far on some points, but overall this trend has been better for users rather than worse. You are complacent because you are young.

Young? I was in college before computers were the norm. I was in post-undergrad when I got my first desktop with Windows. It was in the mid-00's when I was 15 years into my career that I got my first smart phone, a Palm Treo. I thought it was pretty great! It was kinda cumbersome and unintuitive at the time, but since it was the best I could find, it was great. Then after my first iPhone in 2010 I suddenly realized what happens when artistry and engineering genius collide. Super intuitive and "just worked." Then in 2013, to my horror, my phone was forced to iOS7 which was very, very over-complicated compared to what "just worked" the night before with iOS6, which, I could not revert back to due to Apple's Chinese finger trap method of coerced iOS "upgrades." Apple hit near perfection IMHO from the late 90's to 2013. After iOS7 and Yosemite, a bunch of unnecessary less-intuitive over-complexities were inserted into iOS and OSX, and it's what we're stuck with until a real designer and real UIx expert assume responsibility again at Apple.

As far as over-complication, oh come on now. How much more un-complicated do things need to get, or, how much need is there still? Would you not agree that there can be too much of a good thing? Apple already addressed over-complication in ways that count. Adding/deleting programs on computers with a single DELETE (compared to the awful system prior on PCs): genius. Creating the iPod and iTunes for near stupid-proof music files & mp3 player management (compared to the awful system prior on PCs): genius. Creating a very intuitive mobile OS to the point you could do 90% of what you needed w/o an instruction booklet: genius. Using complexity as an excuse to eliminate the ability to upgrade or service certain components (and turning a $1500 laptop into a throwaway commodity) is showing Apple's very poor big-picture engineering and sustainability viewpoints.

Yes, where did I say I was an expert?

I wasn’t calling you an expert. I was calling you out on your deciding when it’s OK to say something is too much or not while others apparently (me) can’t.

If you look back to post #299, I said:
Again, it’s ok for you to pick what’s too much or just right, but not me or others?

You replied:
When did I ever say that? LOL

And I reminded you that you said:

1.) Less buttons - that is a good thing, but I do believe taking away the home button on the iPhone is bad design.

Simple as that!

Now you are equivocating, by pretending that you made an argument in a way different than your original intention. No, you used the iPad keyboard as a proof of your argument, and it doesn't hold up.

Nope. You're wrong. I was criticizing Apple's trend towards a minimalist keyboard which is heading towards, essentially, tapping on a hard surface for lengths of time, instead of using a pleasant and tactile keyboard like the one I'm using now on my MBA. I wanted to at the time point to something like a laser-projected keyboard onto a desk, but felt the iPad would be an easier example to use since I know many here have experience that while I didn’t think many experienced typing on using a laser projected keyboard on a desk. I personally hate typing on an iPad for long periods of time, where I have to click each letter individually with one finger instead of typing with two hands. But if you think about how Apple/J-Ive seem to always go thinner somehow at each next iteration, and if you try to imagine something even thinner and shallower than the B.S. keyboard that's the topic of this thread, then you have the laser-projected or iPad-esque situation. So please don't tell me what I meant to say the first time.

I am also frustrated with the removal of ports and I do believe Apple is guilty of not making that transition easier. But if in 10 years we are still walking around with having to use many cords to connect to devices, then that is also a failure to innovate.

You & I agree. But, how likely is it that Apple won't be stretching then at that point to some yet-imagined future hardware scenario that's not the norm quite yet (like USB-C is today), where each macbook or whaterver-book is set up such that the "ideal" way to use it is to do it like Apple's thinking for 5+ years out. Just a thought to consider...

Um, that exists. It's called a Windows computer.

Is it? I haven't used anything past Windows 7 really yet. Work uses Windows 7. But the thing is, as far as your response: it's not the OSX/mac/iCloud/iCal/iTunes Store system, which I still somehow prefer. So not quite a helpful answer.

That is precisely why Apple is still succeeding and headed towards a trillion dollar valuation.

You're not quite getting what I'm saying. If money/valuation is a metric, then who's to say the current path is the best way to get there?

If the goal is to get to the bottom of a hill and I do it by first rolling around in dog poop and then covering myself with feathers, wouldn’t it be possible there’s a better way that might remove some of the negatives associated with my current way but also possibly be quicker and a lot more fun?

What if more expensive yet more modifiable/serviceable options might get them even further and more valuable? Also, I think Apple is so successful because they built a great platform/system/product line-up in the mid/early 00's starting with the iPod then heading towards great Intel-based computers, followed by the iPhone and iPad which "just worked." Lots of jumpers from windows, lots of us who got embedded into the Apple hardware/software infrastructure. *THAT* got them to where they are today. After 2013 they are riding momentum IMHO. If they keep up this path of fashion-first over function at high prices for generally non-upgradeable hardware, we'll see how long the party lasts.

What do you believe would be new and different for our mobile products that would be leagues better than what's out there? I'm curious what you think.

They had "it" all spread out over a few years ago:
A phone size that was easy to grip and had the power on/off button at the right location, with convenient headphone jacks. (iPhone SE). Tried a 6s and hated the slipperiness, large size, and misplaced on/off button.

An iOS that "just worked" and was so satisfying and intuitive to use (iOS6), where some green felt and fake leather stitching never ruined my day like it did some. Then came unintuitive clumsy over-complicated iOS7 to iOS11.

An OSX that looked like an Apple product. Then came Fisher Price My First Computer-looking Yosemite, with completely unnecessary transparency that is more distraction and smoke/mirrors than anything helpful.

An iPhone with the glorious click-wheel. Like automobile radio volume and HVAC fan controls, nothing beats a round button you can reach and use instantly. Nothing. Using my iPhone for music, especially with Apple's base music or iPod apps is excruciatingly painful.

An iTunes app for OSX that just worked. Then came iTunes 12 that was completely unnecessarily over-complicated.

I know I went on beyond mobile products, but Apple had near-perfection spread out at one time. When Jobs was alive. Then the need to be different each year and deliver growth for shareholders took over, as well as the board allowing a one-trick-pony uber-minimalist hardware industrial designer to get in and ruin software. Simple as that.

I'm not against change. The change from a Palm Treo I was pretty happy with to an iPhone 4 was just utterly glorious. When something works, you just know it. The changes starting around the time of iOS7 started not feeling too glorious. Leading to the MBP keyboard many are stuck with today.