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Apple Confirms 2018 MacBook Pro Keyboard Has 'Membrane' to 'Prevent Debris From Entering the Butterfly Mechanism'
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The point is if it were constructed to a high enough standard recalls and replacements would not be necessary.
Apple quality control and testing has taken a nose dive since 2011. Yes I am well aware of the GPU issues with the 2011 MacBook Pro and the 2007/2008 iMacs but modern Apple cannot even get a keyboard right.
You guys do realize that Apple is eventually going to move away from a mechanical keyboard and replace it it a touch/haptic feedback like they did with the home button on the iPhone 7+
They don't vent hot air through the keyboards. They never have.
The keyboards are backed with a black and white covering between the keyboard assembly, adhered around the edges, to provide even light distribution for the backlit keyboard. But it also means there are no gaps for air to pass through, either in or out.
It's been like this since the introduction of the Unibody in 2008, however even pre-Unibody models had a similar stick-on covering that inhibited airflow through those keyboards too.
It's a myth that someone started, and the community ran with it. if you think about it, the keyboard would make for an awful intake, sucking dust from the surrounding air directly into the key mechanisms and switches.
The 2010, 2013 and 2017 Top Cases, respectively:
This is boiling my blood.
Apple lied to you! I also got deceived by an Apple Store manager two days ago when bringing in my 4-month-old 2017 MBP to get exchanged for a 2018 model due to the keyboard defect.
If you are in Australia (under our stricter consumer laws than USA, by the looks of it), no matter how you acquired your Mac (even if not directly from Apple), them not saying it is possible to offer a refund (certainly within the first year) is FRAUD.
In the "Consumer Guarantees" guide for consumers, the ACCC clearly states, "The consumer guarantees apply every time you buy goods and services. When you buy goods, ... The manufacturer guarantees that: ... • they will honour any express warranties".
Now, as the manufacturer (and not the seller), Apple Pty Ltd in Australia provides such an 'express warranty' in the form of their Apple One (1) Year Limited Warranty. This warranty clearly states that, "You are entitled to a replacement or refund for a major failure".
This is precisely the case with the 2017 keyboard failure, and even if Apple tried to insist that the keyboard issue was not a "major failure", the warranty still states that, "You are also entitled to have the goods ... replaced if the goods fail to be of acceptable quality and the failure does not amount to a major failure".
So if Apple refuse to honour their own express warranty that came in the box when you got your recently-purchased Mac and try to foist the not-good-enough replacement program on you despite you having a superior option under your rights, then you can fight it with the ACCC if need be and that is exactly what I'm doing right now with my 2017 Mac. (I'm about to ring Apple today to see if they'll co-operate or not, or whether I need to take legal action via the agency.)
By 'extended warranty' I thought you meant any warranty that is established with Apple. That is the confusion. This is a repair program that's contingent upon the date of purchase - not a warranty by definition.
The new keyboard doesn’t fit the 17’s. I agree that the right thing for them to do is produce a part with the membrane that does though.
His title is chief design officer of Apple, so if he's not involved then it means he's literally not doing his job.
I hope there's a class action lawsuit in this cause Apple should come up with a proper solution and fix all the affected notebooks. Will it be expensive to fix? For sure, but no one asks them to design a keyboard assembly that doesn't withstand to daily environment usages.
I was not speaking of Apple specifically. Just design in general. Especially when a design trends in a certain direction strongly. I do not think Jony thinks of the extremes of where his direction is going for customers, no I don't. Apple's idea of giving more over the last 4-5 years has been rooted in giving less. So how far can they keep going by giving less? Less buttons, less ports, less tactile feedback, less thickness, less expandability. Less less less almost to the point of parody but at the decrease of fun/flexible use.
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No. Ipad is great for taking in content but doesn't hold a candle to a laptop for productivity. Two vastly different experiences. Someone smarter than me said that somewhere earlier in a Macrumors thread and I could not agree more.
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Give it a break, it will probably happen after the reca... I mean warranty expires.
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It's not the people that have changed. It's the reliability of their products.
To me, that’s precisely the issue. That the people (and their needs) have not changed, while Apple’s priorities clearly have.
They want what Apple can’t and won’t give them (like a greater Mac Pro). Apple evidently has this grand vision of computing that is at odds with their user base who would rather Apple keep giving them more of the same, because that’s what has worked for them.
While the pros bristle at the new design decisions behind the MacBook Pro, I am sure there are users out there who love them, who appreciate the thinner and lighter form factor and don’t mind using adaptors and dongles.
I don’t know if Apple has indeed backed itself into a corner trying to make their devices as thin and light as they can be, or if this is just some painful transitional phase, but I don’t see Apple walking back on their design decisions (one of the ramifications of the company being run designers; the engineers will simply have to do the best they can to design around the constraints given to them).
I think there comes a point where the pros have to ask themselves if Apple is still the product for them, and be prepared to walk away rather than continue to hang around in a relationship that’s clearly not going the way they want.
Ok...so unless Tim Cook has his mother present at the 50 yard line of the SuperBowl during halftime, and explicitly denies that the membrane is for contamination, you'll keep insisting that Apple hasn't admitted to anything. Got it.
Did I say the keyboard was 20% thinner? No. Google the dimensions of the 2015 vs 2018 15 inch pros and see for yourself next time. Where did you get 5% from? Another made up number? Point is all good manufacturers strive to improve on past designs...why crucify Apple for working to improve?
What a arrogant reply to someone who is voicing a real concern many of us have, it's Apple user like you who give the community a bad name. I have the same concerns as this guy, the point being even with a free repair it's still prone to breaking AGAIN. The design of the keyboard is flawed, its a hardware defect in affect. The kind of stunt apple is pulling is the kind of thing that would prevent someone from buying another Mac, unless they had no other choice(work related reason).
[doublepost=1532060987][/doublepost]My keyboard hasn't experienced any problems so far, but it goes without saying that it might in the future. Being covered under a warranty is nice, if in case it does break. The real problem is replacing the keyboard with the same broken and badly designed one. That will eventually break again, no imagine that you would like to keep your Mac beyond the warranty. Well if the keyboard breaks you will have to come out of pocket, and this then depends on parts availability after so many years. So you really don't have much choice but to upgrade to the latest model to have this issue fixed. And thats a complete ripoff and a hand basket, the likelihood of me buying a Mac again is on the edge.
Sometimes bitching about things, is the only way a company understands that they screwed up. I dunno about Apple though, it seems they enjoy losing money on replacing the whole top case with a new one...no matter how much cash pile they have, it’s still a LOSS (perhaps insignificant at this point in time)...
The problem is, that multi-million/billion companies, a lot of times they lose connection with reality and screw ups start appearing. I don’t understand why can’t they beta test certain products, especially ones that include new technology/mechanisms, etc - wouldn’t that save them millions in the end from faulty repairs and lawsuits?
Well, Apple has been consistent at removing ports as they always have and I have no issues with that. But yeah, they backed themselves into a corner in making their device pointlessly thin, I get it if the notebook is aimed for general users (like the original MBA was), but this is the MacBook Pro which for all intent or purposes is a machine that's going to be used for intensive stuff like photo, video or programming, and to make it thin for whatever reason is contradictory for its use case.
Like why do they even bother to make the iMac super thin at the edges and at the expense of user-upgradeable RAM or Hard Disk when no one is going to be carrying it around? Stupid decision much.
It's like designing a colour blind app but the designer decides to use shades of red and green cause those are the "in" colour when knowing perfectly well that their app users are colour blind and will have difficulty seeing those colours.
I really don't understand Apple design choices by making wear and tear item to be so darn difficult to be replaced. I'm okay for it to be done at their service centres, but it has to be on-site and straightaway (if you live outside of UK and US, you'll understand what I mean by this).
Apple needs to grow up as they're not a small company fighting MS anymore, in fact, I'll argue that MS is doing "cooler" things then Apple at the moment.
Oh and I don't think this is Ive fault, cause when the first unibody MBP was released, it allows replaceable batteries and the mechanism for it is really beautiful.
Apple should stop trying to cover it up and just be open with customers. Say "we made a mistake with the keyboard, and this is what we're doing to fix it". This type of corporate cloak and dagger crap does more damage than the keyboard problems themselves.
Tim keeps touting how "enlightened" and "righteous" Apple is, but then they just flat out lie to their customers.
Tim keeps touting how "enlightened" and "righteous" Apple is, but then they just flat out lie to their customers.
To avoid losing class-action lawsuits regarding debris ingress on the previous year models.
I think the next throttle-gate is bound to happen very soon...
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Aaaaa yes, stock value, the ultimate and only rating that makes sense for companies nowadays. We produce dog poo, but as long as our stock rises, it’s all good (no pun intended for Apple or anyone else, just a general thought fyi)...
All this word hammering between BadApple and GoodApple crews is nonsense.
While I cannot be sure, nobody around here is probably a manager of a gigantic company like Apple, nor an iconic designer or a lawyer deeply versed in customer protection. I read almost a thousand of messages in four distinct topics covering the 2016-2018 MBP. Sooner or later, one of the questions from both sides is: what is a 'pro' user or usage anyway?
Answers and opinions on that one are like intimate parts: everybody has them. They are all alike and all different at the same time
, but some interesting spins on it are looking at that from the other side. What is a poor pro experience?
To me, for instance, having to wait more than a day for the keyboard repair. I don't mind if you're doing photo/video, developing code, running multiple VMs, whatever. This, along the limited 4 year defective with defective replacement blanket, is a joke, professionaly speaking. We have expensive network equipment, rack mounted in our cabinets that with the same cost of AppleCare (in percentage or absolute) receive next business day replacement. No questions asked. Of course, with some (few) more money, the replacement is here the same day, in 4 hours.
In the spirit of redundancy, I should have at least another MBP sitting around, waiting to take over, but probably (or for sure) this doesn't work for single professionals. My 2017 MBP with extended warranty in Europe was near 5.200,00 USD.
And what about the "it just works" aphorism? How can a notebook just work if the keyboard or display doesn't? Of course it can happen, I don't want to bash on Apple for the design/engineering mistakes, if any. But I expect from a multi-billion company to accept the so called "company risk" (or business risk, depending on localization). I take mine, and I'm still waiting without getting mad at the keyboard.
But as soon as Apple admits something along the lines of defective hardware, as I live in the EU I will demand a complete refund. Of course, I cannot easily dash away from MacOS just like this, so the refund will be immediately thrown on a 2018/2019 MBP.
But really, telling everybody that the 4 year repair program is a professional customer service for a professional product from a professional company is nothing short of absent logic. Please note that I'm not referring to anybody specifically and that this is mostly done to write down my considerations (got my intimate parts myself):
While I cannot be sure, nobody around here is probably a manager of a gigantic company like Apple, nor an iconic designer or a lawyer deeply versed in customer protection. I read almost a thousand of messages in four distinct topics covering the 2016-2018 MBP. Sooner or later, one of the questions from both sides is: what is a 'pro' user or usage anyway?
Answers and opinions on that one are like intimate parts: everybody has them. They are all alike and all different at the same time
, but some interesting spins on it are looking at that from the other side. What is a poor pro experience? To me, for instance, having to wait more than a day for the keyboard repair. I don't mind if you're doing photo/video, developing code, running multiple VMs, whatever. This, along the limited 4 year defective with defective replacement blanket, is a joke, professionaly speaking. We have expensive network equipment, rack mounted in our cabinets that with the same cost of AppleCare (in percentage or absolute) receive next business day replacement. No questions asked. Of course, with some (few) more money, the replacement is here the same day, in 4 hours.
In the spirit of redundancy, I should have at least another MBP sitting around, waiting to take over, but probably (or for sure) this doesn't work for single professionals. My 2017 MBP with extended warranty in Europe was near 5.200,00 USD.
And what about the "it just works" aphorism? How can a notebook just work if the keyboard or display doesn't? Of course it can happen, I don't want to bash on Apple for the design/engineering mistakes, if any. But I expect from a multi-billion company to accept the so called "company risk" (or business risk, depending on localization). I take mine, and I'm still waiting without getting mad at the keyboard.
But as soon as Apple admits something along the lines of defective hardware, as I live in the EU I will demand a complete refund. Of course, I cannot easily dash away from MacOS just like this, so the refund will be immediately thrown on a 2018/2019 MBP
.But really, telling everybody that the 4 year repair program is a professional customer service for a professional product from a professional company is nothing short of absent logic. Please note that I'm not referring to anybody specifically and that this is mostly done to write down my considerations (got my intimate parts myself
):- they will replace it for free for 4 years!!!!
- yes. each repair will take 2-7 business days at least (depends on location). This is due to the design of the product. But they will replace defective with parts with probably defective parts. Outside USA this works only if you don't have a functional replacement that addresses the previous problem: they could/should modify 2017 parts adding the membrane barrier. Is it expensive? For sure, please goto multi-billion and then company risk
- I don't use a pro product to watch YT or use MS Office. 2-7 business days is a nightmare. For sure, unless during prolonged vacations, I would use an external keyboard instead of staying without my main job tool for days
- please remember that the USA is not the majority of the global market: outside there are stricter laws concerning defective products and customer protection. The repair program doesn't cut it. But if large companies don't take actions against Apple, it's difficult for single citizens to take it.
- 4 years.... I upgraded from a late 2011 because the battery was probably about to explode as it grew more than an inch larger in less than a month. But this happened after almost 7 years. Apple is proud to advertise long lasting quality of its products. Only 4 years for a +5.000,00 piece of equipment? Many professional vendors give (although limited) life warranty. I don't mind about other notebooks. I mind about service.
- they are not lying because there is no defect, mistakes happen
- of course they do happen, and I don't think they are lying. I would bet they are making right estimates of the problem and the possible economic effort and impact of different outcomes, so they are in fact taking time. It's OK to me.
- I don't mind about missing ports. I don't mind about the touchbar. But thermal considerations.... I mind about them. The 2017 MBP is a furnace. Perhaps some people is right, this is not the notebook for every professional. Is it only for gentle professionals working in marketing brochure environments images? I don't mind the noise, equip it with heavy duty fans, for cores sake. And what about clamshell mode? Right now I only have two browsers and a MUA running. Clamshell mode. Two external 4k display. Fans are ON since I began writing. I don't mind about battery like, that's my business risk. But what about the tiny plastic elements in the butterfly mechanism? And the silicone membrane in the 2018 model? I'm not talking about thermal cpu frequency throttle issues (though they have been funny and a shame by themselves since years). I'm talking about durability and safety.
- I think Apple has been fueling the F in FUD since years. Not on purpose, of course. But it has. As I said before I have at home redundant network/media equipment. It's my call and I decide if it's necessary or worth it. I always thought an Apple notebook didn't need a replacement ready just in case. Now I'm not that sure anymore.
- it's only a very small percentage of users
- I believe it, too. But 1% of tens of millions of MBP sold is hundreds of thousands defective units around the globe. Do your math dividing those between the 5 hundred of Apple Stores.
- the market is regulated by nations and state laws, too. Not only numbers. Is the discussed problem a defect? Or is the MBP the wrong product for a lot of professionals?
- If this is a wrong notebook for you, you should have analyzed your options better
- this argument works in the streets. Less so in courts. To summarize it with an example, please have a look at the 2018 MBP page in the Apple website. Scroll over to the power description of the hexacore. Compare it with Apple executives admission of self placing in a thermal corner sort for the Mac Pro. There's no need to wait for 2018 MBP thermalgate . What I mean is that in many countries if you sell a product showing it adheres to standards and fulfills needs and serves specific scopes, it's not the buyer problem (legally speaking) to discover by himself/herself if it's true or not.
- this argument works in the streets. Less so in courts. To summarize it with an example, please have a look at the 2018 MBP page in the Apple website. Scroll over to the power description of the hexacore. Compare it with Apple executives admission of self placing in a thermal corner sort for the Mac Pro. There's no need to wait for 2018 MBP thermalgate
In an internal document distributed to Apple Authorized Service Providers, obtained by MacRumors from multiple reliable sources, Apple has confirmed that the third-generation keyboard on 2018 MacBook Pro models is equipped with a "membrane" to "prevent debris from entering the butterfly mechanism."
Image Credit: iFixit
The relevant excerpt from Canadian and European versions of Apple's internal 2018 MacBook Pro Service Readiness Guide:While the U.S. version of this Service Readiness Guide does not mention the membrane, it contains a link to a separate internal document titled "Butterfly Mechanism Keycap Replacement MacBook Pro (2018)" that does:In its teardown of the new 13-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar last week, the repair experts at iFixit were first to discover the thin, silicone barrier underneath the keycaps, and theorized that it was to prevent dust indeed. Apple filed a patent for a contaminant-resistant MacBook keyboard back in 2016.
Publicly, Apple has only confirmed that 2018 MacBook Pro models feature an "improved third-generation keyboard for quieter typing," but many suspected that the silicon membrane was actually to prevent "contaminant ingress," fancy speak for the crumbs from your sandwich that you ate at your desk for lunch.
Following years of anecdotal complaints from customers, and a few class action lawsuits, Apple initiated a worldwide service program last month, offering free repairs of 2015-and-later MacBook and 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro keyboards, which are equipped with low-profile butterfly switch mechanisms.
We've already reported about the service program in more detail, but the gist is that those particular MacBook and MacBook Pro models can experience issues with sticky, unresponsive, or inconsistently functioning keys when small particles like dust or crumbs get stuck underneath the shallower keycaps.
Apple confirmed to MacRumors that third-generation keyboards will not be offered as replacements under its service program for 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro second-generation keyboard repairs, likely due to a tweaked top case design.
We've reached out to Apple for comment.
Article Link: Apple Confirms 2018 MacBook Pro Keyboard Has 'Membrane' to 'Prevent Debris From Entering the Butterfly Mechanism'
Let's hope the lawyers involved in the class-action lawsuits subpoena this document for the legal proceedings. Anyone able to contact them?
This is from your own post:
- Apple designed an innovative keyboard for current and future designs to become thinner...in this case almost 20% thinner.
And we're mad at Apple because they're trying to improve a defective design instead of simply reverting to their previous scissor keyboards which worked just fine even with plenty of dust trapped under the keys. And now their fix is something that will protect the switches for a longer time, but once dust settles inside the silicone membrane it will be much harder to get it out.
After reading the replies here, I agree that Apple has a fault here.
Some people that believe Apple has no fault with this, please see Louis Rossmann's recent video - My problem with the cult of Apple
Some people that believe Apple has no fault with this, please see Louis Rossmann's recent video - My problem with the cult of Apple