Apple Confirms 2018 MacBook Pro Keyboard Has 'Membrane' to 'Prevent Debris From Entering the Butterfly Mechanism'

[seadragon]

After reading the replies here, I agree that Apple has a fault here.
Some people that believe Apple has no fault with this, please see Louis Rossmann's recent video - My problem with the cult of Apple

I just watched his video and agree with a lot of what he says. The resident Apple lap dogs around here (some laughingly to the point of choosing forum usernames of the Apple exec team - yeah no bias there ) should get their heads out of the bubble they live in and face reality. Admit it, Apple screwed up these machines. I am a huge fan of Apple. I've been a customer of theirs since about the early '90s and have owned and continue to own many of their products. But I am not an iSheep. This situation with the MBP is just ridiculous. I was all set to buy a spec'd out MBP in 2016 but have held off and will still hold off due to all this nonsense regarding the hardware. Apple has lost their way and seem to be much more interested in iDevices and Carpool Karaoke than producing reliable, professional computers as they did in the past (just look at the sad state of the Mac Pro). What a shame.

 

[lowendlinux]

They seem to be putting quite a bit of effort into a keyboard that no one really likes. Maybe it's time for them to stop and rethink this mechanism.

 

[navaira]

keyboard that no one really likes

I love everything about the keyboard (2016 rMB) EXCEPT the fact it can die on me literally any time. If Apple fix that, I will be 100% happy with it.

 

[Zq7r]

I love everything about the keyboard (2016 rMB) EXCEPT the fact it can die on me literally any time. If Apple fix that, I will be 100% happy with it.

According to appleinsider https://forums.appleinsider.com/dis...s-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models for devices that needed service the percentage that involved the keyboard was as follows: 2015 -> 6%, 2016 -> 12%, 2017 -> 8%. This means the 2016 is only 6% more likely to have a keyboard fail given some sort of device failure, and the 2017 only has a 2% increase (as compared to the 2015). And that is only accounting for devices that need to be serviced. Accounting for all devices in the wild this is probable much less than 1% for both the 2016 and 2017. All this outrage is hugely overblown.

 

[thealkimist]

Sometimes bitching about things, is the only way a company understands that they screwed up. I dunno about Apple though, it seems they enjoy losing money on replacing the whole top case with a new one...no matter how much cash pile they have, it’s still a LOSS (perhaps insignificant at this point in time)...

The problem is, that multi-million/billion companies, a lot of times they lose connection with reality and screw ups start appearing. I don’t understand why can’t they beta test certain products, especially ones that include new technology/mechanisms, etc - wouldn’t that save them millions in the end from faulty repairs and lawsuits?

1.) This is Apple, they at least try to make their customers happy.

2.) Of course Apple puts their products through rigorous testing, but to cover every single variable is very difficult, especially when you build for products on the scale they build them.
[doublepost=1532113158][/doublepost]

I was not speaking of Apple specifically. Just design in general. Especially when a design trends in a certain direction strongly. I do not think Jony thinks of the extremes of where his direction is going for customers, no I don't. Apple's idea of giving more over the last 4-5 years has been rooted in giving less. So how far can they keep going by giving less? Less buttons, less ports, less tactile feedback, less thickness, less expandability. Less less less almost to the point of parody but at the decrease of fun/flexible use.
[doublepost=1532050757][/doublepost]

Less is usually more - it's a core principle in good design. That is not to say however that less is always more, but as a general rule it tends to be more true than not. You are clearly very ignore about what makes a good product, and although Ive and his team do get some things wrong, they are generally pretty spot on in their decisions - otherwise other hardware and software makers wouldn't be imitating their decisions since the founding of Apple's first success.

But here are some nuances from my perspective since I am a designer by trade:
1.) Less buttons - that is a good thing, but I do believe taking away the home button on the iPhone is bad design. But time and habit is another factor in design, so we will have to wait and see if is a convention that will be easily understood by people who are not confident with today's technology.
2.) Less tactile feedback - that is a good thing and I do believe that Apple's direction is a good one with this. It will limit the physical toll that technology has wrought about our joints for a long time.
3.) Less thickness - that is a great thing for mobile products, weight has always been one of the primary issues.
4.) Less expandability - most users never utilize expandability so getting rid of it makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint. The people who do are a very very small segment of the market, especially when our machines are powerful enough to meet most 'pro' requirements like visual designers and video editors.

 

[navaira]

And that is only accounting for devices that need to be serviced.

This is the unfortunate bit. I had to use canned air twice already on my rMB. When I travel I have to take it with me. I don't care how many percent experience failures bad enough to require replacement, and I don't want to consider myself "lucky" that mine was "not that bad". I'd be curious to see what percentage of users didn't have ANY problems with this keyboard, no need to shake the laptop, bang on the key, spray it with canned air while holding it at ridiculous angle. I'm sorry, but your assertion that 12% repairs being related to keyboards completely failing means only 1% users experience problems with the keyboard makes no sense to me.

Samsung missed a great opportunity to advertise their cheap Chromebooks. Imagine an ad in which a user of a €1449 Macbook has to turn the laptop upside down, shake it, spray keyboard with compressed air, repeatedly dropping either the computer or the can, while the Chromebook person keeps on working and quietly chuckling. I type a LOT. For me, one stuck key is a huge problem. I can't continue working when I can't usethespacebar, and when I travel I don't take my Hackintosh along.

Switching to Windows is not an option...well, technically it is, in practice not so much. I own a Chromebook. It cost me €149, I upgraded the SSD without any problems, and not once did it present any problems with the keyboard. But doesn't run any of the software I use except, well, Chrome. Linux doesn't run Adobe CC, Scrivener, Reason either. Macbook Air screen hurts my eyes. So I am contemplating a TB Macbook Pro solely because it comes with a condom. It's not outrage, at least in my case. It's disappointment.

 

[Zq7r]

This is the unfortunate bit. I had to use canned air twice already I'm sorry, but your assertion that 12% repairs being related to keyboards completely failing means only 1% users experience problems with the keyboard makes no sense to me.

The 12% is not keyboards completely failing, its covering any issue with the keyboard. Lets imagine we are in a miniature world in which there are only 1000 macbooks. Imagine that 100 of those laptops go in for service, and 12 of those have an issue with the keyboard. That would mean that 12% of laptops that require service had an issue with the keyboard (this is what is reported in the apple insider link), but that is not the true failure rate of the keyboard. The actual failure rate (or issue rate) would be 12/1000 or 1.2% for the 2016, and 0.8% for the 2017. This all assumes that 1 in 10 MacBooks needs servicing for any reason, and I suspect that this is a significant over-estimate, meaning the failure rates for keyboards are much less then 1% for both years. Of course this is relying on appleinsider data, so my argument is only as good as their data. If there is better data somewhere that is fueling all this outrage I would like to see it.

 

[wheelhot]

I actually like the keyboard, I just wished they spent more time working on its durability, reliability and serviceability.

And for slightly more travel, preferably similar to the old scissor style keys. While better than the 1st gen butterfly keys, it still has that dead feeling to it due to the short travel.

 

[groove-agent]

Put simply a "pro user" is someone who earns the majority of their income from their computer compared to the average consumer who uses it to surf the net, and "just dick around".

Sooner or later, one of the questions from both sides is: what is a 'pro' user or usage anyway?

Answers and opinions on that one are like intimate parts: everybody has them. They are all alike and all different at the same time , but some interesting spins on it are looking at that from the other side. What is a poor pro experience?

To me, for instance, having to wait more than a day for the keyboard repair. I don't mind if you're doing photo/video, developing code, running multiple VMs, whatever. This, along the limited 4 year defective with defective replacement blanket, is a joke, professionaly speaking. We have expensive network equipment, rack mounted in our cabinets that with the same cost of AppleCare (in percentage or absolute) receive next business day replacement. No questions asked. Of course, with some (few) more money, the replacement is here the same day, in 4 hours.

In the spirit of redundancy, I should have at least another MBP sitting around, waiting to take over, but probably (or for sure) this doesn't work for single professionals. My 2017 MBP with extended warranty in Europe was near 5.200,00 USD.

And what about the "it just works" aphorism? How can a notebook just work if the keyboard or display doesn't? Of course it can happen, I don't want to bash on Apple for the design/engineering mistakes, if any. But I expect from a multi-billion company to accept the so called "company risk" (or business risk, depending on localization). I take mine, and I'm still waiting without getting mad at the keyboard.

But as soon as Apple admits something along the lines of defective hardware, as I live in the EU I will demand a complete refund. Of course, I cannot easily dash away from MacOS just like this, so the refund will be immediately thrown on a 2018/2019 MBP .

But really, telling everybody that the 4 year repair program is a professional customer service for a professional product from a professional company is nothing short of absent logic. Please note that I'm not referring to anybody specifically and that this is mostly done to write down my considerations (got my intimate parts myself ):

• they will replace it for free for 4 years!!!!
  • yes. each repair will take 2-7 business days at least (depends on location). This is due to the design of the product. But they will replace defective with parts with probably defective parts. Outside USA this works only if you don't have a functional replacement that addresses the previous problem: they could/should modify 2017 parts adding the membrane barrier. Is it expensive? For sure, please goto multi-billion and then company risk
  • I don't use a pro product to watch YT or use MS Office. 2-7 business days is a nightmare. For sure, unless during prolonged vacations, I would use an external keyboard instead of staying without my main job tool for days
  • please remember that the USA is not the majority of the global market: outside there are stricter laws concerning defective products and customer protection. The repair program doesn't cut it. But if large companies don't take actions against Apple, it's difficult for single citizens to take it.
  • 4 years.... I upgraded from a late 2011 because the battery was probably about to explode as it grew more than an inch larger in less than a month. But this happened after almost 7 years. Apple is proud to advertise long lasting quality of its products. Only 4 years for a +5.000,00 piece of equipment? Many professional vendors give (although limited) life warranty. I don't mind about other notebooks. I mind about service.

• they are not lying because there is no defect, mistakes happen
  • of course they do happen, and I don't think they are lying. I would bet they are making right estimates of the problem and the possible economic effort and impact of different outcomes, so they are in fact taking time. It's OK to me.
  • I don't mind about missing ports. I don't mind about the touchbar. But thermal considerations.... I mind about them. The 2017 MBP is a furnace. Perhaps some people is right, this is not the notebook for every professional. Is it only for gentle professionals working in marketing brochure environments images? I don't mind the noise, equip it with heavy duty fans, for cores sake. And what about clamshell mode? Right now I only have two browsers and a MUA running. Clamshell mode. Two external 4k display. Fans are ON since I began writing. I don't mind about battery like, that's my business risk. But what about the tiny plastic elements in the butterfly mechanism? And the silicone membrane in the 2018 model? I'm not talking about thermal cpu frequency throttle issues (though they have been funny and a shame by themselves since years). I'm talking about durability and safety.
  • I think Apple has been fueling the F in FUD since years. Not on purpose, of course. But it has. As I said before I have at home redundant network/media equipment. It's my call and I decide if it's necessary or worth it. I always thought an Apple notebook didn't need a replacement ready just in case. Now I'm not that sure anymore.

• it's only a very small percentage of users
  • I believe it, too. But 1% of tens of millions of MBP sold is hundreds of thousands defective units around the globe. Do your math dividing those between the 5 hundred of Apple Stores.
  • the market is regulated by nations and state laws, too. Not only numbers. Is the discussed problem a defect? Or is the MBP the wrong product for a lot of professionals?

• If this is a wrong notebook for you, you should have analyzed your options better
  • this argument works in the streets. Less so in courts. To summarize it with an example, please have a look at the 2018 MBP page in the Apple website. Scroll over to the power description of the hexacore. Compare it with Apple executives admission of self placing in a thermal corner sort for the Mac Pro. There's no need to wait for 2018 MBP thermalgate . What I mean is that in many countries if you sell a product showing it adheres to standards and fulfills needs and serves specific scopes, it's not the buyer problem (legally speaking) to discover by himself/herself if it's true or not.

 

[Tozovac]

They want what Apple can’t and won’t give them (like a greater Mac Pro). Apple evidently has this grand vision of computing that is at odds with their user base who would rather Apple keep giving them more of the same, because that’s what has worked for them.

At this point of refinement in computers in general and Apple’s minimization streak, it’s nothing but fascinating to me to think that Apple (or anybody) would feel it’s ok to force radical change with so few options, and/or to dismiss user preferences it so chooses to dismess. Is Apple permitted to do so? Certainly. If Apple designed the cars most everyone wanted, would they be right to remove all radio volume and HVAC fan speed rotary knobs (which are well known as “don’t change this” features by most customers) with touchscreen controls hidden behind hamburger menus for reasons they hold dearly? Apparently it would be ok to them and to many, and that’s fascinating to me.

I think there comes a point where the pros have to ask themselves if Apple is still the product for them, and be prepared to walk away rather than continue to hang around in a relationship that’s clearly not going the way they want.

And it’s equally fascinating to me that it would come up that the once-named Apple Computer company would be ok to forgo targeting being best in class for pro users.

Less is usually more - it's a core principle in good design. That is not to say however that less is always more, but as a general rule it tends to be more true than not.

Your last sentence is so contradictory of itself and at the heart of my issue with today’s Apple - less is ok when some dictate what’s ok, but as for what others think: pfft your preferences matter not.

You are clearly very ignore about what makes a good product, and although Ive and his team do get some things wrong, they are generally pretty spot on in their decisions - otherwise other hardware and software makers wouldn't be imitating their decisions since the founding of Apple's first success.

I am, eh? What makes you so sure of that and you so sure the expert?

As for followers...newsflash: Unfortuntely EVERYBODY follows the leaders, for good or bad, and very often with poor results. Why do 90% of today’s automotive grilles look like Audi’s, but where most just look like caricatures of angry fish. Apple is the leader for now but I don't think for long here on their over-minimalization-at-any-cost path.

But here are some nuances from my perspective since I am a de
1.) Less buttons - that is a good thing, but I do believe taking away the home button on the iPhone is bad design.

Again, it’s ok for you to pick what’s too much or just right, but not me or others?

2.) Less tactile feedback - that is a good thing and I do believe that Apple's direction is a good one with this. It will limit the physical toll that technology has wrought about our joints for a long time.

Physical toll from typing? Remember what I said about making the mistake about not looking at the extension of your design path along the extremes? How good might it be on your joints if tactile feedback were eliminated completely for a keyboard? Say, typing on an iPad from here out. No thanks.

3.) Less thickness - that is a great thing for mobile products, weight has always been one of the primary issues.

Again, how much more is needed.

4.) Less expandability - most users never utilize expandability so getting rid of it makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint. The people who do are a very very small segment of the market, especially when our machines are powerful enough to meet most 'pro' requirements like visual designers and video editors.

Geez. Most MacBook owners I know wish they could add ram or storage later after purpose. MOST.

No offense but it’s that close-minded one size fits all our-way-or-the-highway that will likely drive me away from Apple more experienced I get with their products and with life in general. The thought that perhaps Apple products may not be for me the more Pro I get is fascinatingly silly, if anyone at Apple might actually feel that way. Their current product lineup sure seems like someone in charge there must feel that way.

 

[groove-agent]

4.) Less expandability - most users never utilize expandability so getting rid of it makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint. The people who do are a very very small segment of the market, especially when our machines are powerful enough to meet most 'pro' requirements like visual designers and video editors.

I don't know how you could possibly have actual data on how many people expand their laptops. I for one, bought a 2012 cMBP with the standard RAM, and hard drive. When prices dropped I upgraded both plus pulled out the optical and added a second hard drive. Then again, when SSDs came out, I threw one of those in and it was like a new computer. You can't get that kind of longevity and value out of a MBP these days, not even close. This aforementioned laptop lasted me almost 6 years and didn't have a single defect - ever.

I think the non-upgradable MBPs are a result of a few things, some of them greed:

1) you can't upgrade later so more people will likely max out their BTOs, at a premium price of course
2) the lack of repairability makes the laptop practically disposable if it has an issue outside the warranty, esp for those with a lot of disposable income (which is probably a significant part of their demographic)
3) stops people from tinkering and modifying their laptops which creates more of a "closed" system - saves cost with diagnosing problems
4) allows them to make it thinner which creates more problems than it's worth

 

[Abazigal]

And it’s equally fascinating to me that it would come up that the once-named Apple Computer company would be ok to forgo targeting being best in class for pro users.

Because pro users no longer make up the bulk of Apple’s user base.

An interview last year with Phil Schiller revealed that roughly 30% of Mac users are considered “professionals” by their own metrics.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/06/t...-john-ternus-on-the-state-of-apples-pro-macs/

So while Apple isn’t giving up on their pro users, the latter don’t constitute a sizeable enough number that makes it worthwhile for Apple to dedicate an entire production line just for them. Rather, what will likely end up happening is that pro users have to share space with us non-pro users. Apple will continue to work on finding a middle-ground than appeals to both pro and non-pro users.

They will have to accept features that we consumers like that they find inane (like a thinner and lighter form factor), because that’s what sells devices to us. At the same time, we get stuck with DDR4 ram on our 15” MBPs even if we don’t get the 32gb option.

It looks like we are just going to have to learn to get along with each other.

 

[ipponrg]

Because pro users no longer make up the bulk of Apple’s user base.

An interview last year with Phil Schiller revealed that roughly 30% of Mac users are considered “professionals” by their own metrics.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/06/t...-john-ternus-on-the-state-of-apples-pro-macs/

So while Apple isn’t giving up on their pro users, the latter don’t constitute a sizeable enough number that makes it worthwhile for Apple to dedicate an entire production line just for them. Rather, what will likely end up happening is that pro users have to share space with us non-pro users. Apple will continue to work on finding a middle-ground than appeals to both pro and non-pro users.

They will have to accept features that we consumers like that they find inane (like a thinner and lighter form factor), because that’s what sells devices to us. At the same time, we get stuck with DDR4 ram on our 15” MBPs even if we don’t get the 32gb option.

It looks like we are just going to have to learn to get along with each other.

In other words, Apple isn't as big of a company as some of you spout it is. They are first and foremost trying to please their shareholders which basically means they are targeting their current majority user base. When a company has a larger ratio of retail employees to engineers, it means they have pivoted their business to the ordinary consumer.

It will be interesting to see how this affects the relevant pro-sumer and professional industries in the next 5-10 years.

 

[Abazigal]

In other words, Apple isn't as big of a company as some of you spout it is. They are first and foremost trying to please their shareholders which basically means they are targeting their current majority user base. When a company has a larger ratio of retail employees to engineers, it means they have pivoted their business to the ordinary consumer.

It will be interesting to see how this affects the relevant pro-sumer and professional industries in the next 5-10 years.

Well, Apple has done it at least once before, when they redesigned Final Cut Pro to cater more to YouTubers rather than Hollywood-style movie editing workflows. Seems like they decided there and then that people like Casey Neistat were the future, not Steven Spielberg.

What I see happening is that as times change, so too will Apple’s definition of “pro” and how they address both their previous and newer target markets.

And I believe the next professional battleground will be fought over the iPad. With a user base at least twice as large as every Mac combined and growing, we iPad users are simply too big a user demographic to ignore.

 

[Tozovac]

Because pro users no longer make up the bulk of Apple’s user base.

An interview last year with Phil Schiller revealed that roughly 30% of Mac users are considered “professionals” by their own metrics.

Thanks for helping strengthen my point. So 30% of a humongous user base is considered not enough for the once “Apple Computer” company to focus on computers? Again, it’s ever so fascinating.

 

[anshuvorty]

Thanks for helping strengthen my point. So 30% of a humongous user base is considered not enough for the once “Apple Computer” company to focus on computers? Again, it’s ever so fascinating.

I think the company's name change proves your point as well: Apple Computers > Apple Inc now...no more focused solely on computers but a variety of endeavors, of which computers makes up a portion.

 

[Abazigal]

Thanks for helping strengthen my point. So 30% of a humongous user base is considered not enough for the once “Apple Computer” company to focus on computers? Again, it’s ever so fascinating.

The Mac user base was never that huge to begin with (outspoken perhaps). That's probably why Apple held off on updating the Mac Pro for the longest time, and why I suspect they tried to push the iMac Pro as its successor - because the ROI likely would have been negative (you have a niche of a niche).

I am not sure what your point is either. Apple hasn't been a computer computer for the longest time. They are, and always have been, a design (or rather, a design-led) company whose vision is to make technology more personal, not to ship you the absolute most powerful computer (spec-wise). Apple will continue to focus on computers (in that I don't see them giving up on the Mac in the near term), but it will be on their own terms. So expect more features along the likes of the touchbar, rather than a return to cheese-grater Mac Pros.

 

[nia820]

Instead of putting membranes in the keyboard, Apple should have just changed the mechanism. Butterfly keyboard looks pretty but for typing it’s not very comfortable. I often feel like I’m tapping on a table while typing. I have to take more typing breaks with my 2017 mbp than I’ve had to do compared to previous mbp models.

 

[recoil80]

I went to an AS yesterday and typed for a few minutes on a 2018 MBP. The place was crowded so I couldn't tell whether it was quieter or not, but it didn't feel much different than my 2016 MBP in term of typing feedback. I just hope the reliability problem is solved

 

[Tozovac]

The Mac user base was never that huge to begin with (outspoken perhaps). That's probably why Apple held off on updating the Mac Pro for the longest time, and why I suspect they tried to push the iMac Pro as its successor - because the ROI likely would have been negative (you have a niche of a niche).

I am not sure what your point is either. Apple hasn't been a computer computer for the longest time. They are, and always have been, a design (or rather, a design-led) company whose vision is to make technology more personal, not to ship you the absolute most powerful computer (spec-wise). Apple will continue to focus on computers (in that I don't see them giving up on the Mac in the near term), but it will be on their own terms. So expect more features along the likes of the touchbar, rather than a return to cheese-grater Mac Pros.

The Mac base was never that large to begin with? To begin with, the Mac base was 100% of Apple Computer. And being that they were once very well a top option (or the top choice) for pro media/artist/video types even up to and past the iPod-intro stage, and being that part of their strategy seems to be to draw the consumer so deep into their ecosystem that it’s painful to leave, my point is that hopefully someone in Timmy’s boardroom of fashion designers trying to pick which button for port to remove next has considered the potential effects should customers start to become aware that Apple products might not be a great place to be once they grow up beyond prioritizing animoji’s and the thrill of having the smallest-bezeled phone amongst friends. Only time will tell If that matters I guess. I’m already thinking of what’s smartest next for me and how to transfer out of the ecosystem just in case, and I can’t be alone.

 

[Baymowe335]

They seem to be putting quite a bit of effort into a keyboard that no one really likes. Maybe it's time for them to stop and rethink this mechanism.

Data that shows “nobody likes” this keyboard?

Spoiler alert: Apple knows what their customers like better than you.

 

[lec0rsaire]

Put simply a "pro user" is someone who earns the majority of their income from their computer compared to the average consumer who uses it to surf the net, and "just dick around".

This is the accurate definition. MacBook Pros have never been the most powerful machines of their kind at any given time. Perhaps when the rMBP was released in 2012 it had a leg up on other machines because of the combination of its performance and best display to date.

Pro means different things to different people on the Internet. To some, a machine cannot be pro unless it has a 1080ti. To photographers not having a built in SD slot makes an otherwise powerful machine not pro. And finally to others, not being able to upgrade the RAM, storage and replace the battery disqualifies it. Others will not be happy unless it has every dedicated legacy port they want. I.e. Ethernet, TB2, HDMI, FireWire 800, USB type A and so forth.

If anything people should be happy Apple forced USB-C on everyone early. This means that these machines will take a long time to be obsolete due to TB3. Even when the next revision of TB arrives, we will still benefit from the tons of USB-C peripherals available by then. Flash drives, cheap external SSDs, displays, music interfaces (which are already available btw), eGPUs and whatever one can think of. The 2015 MBP as good as it is will really suffer in a few years when everything is USB-C. That’s why I cannot comprehend why many spent $2000+ buying one in 2016, 2017 and even as recent as this year. If someone bought one back in 2015 and still doesn’t want to upgrade that’s fine, but spending that much on old hardware today just does not make much sense especially considering that Apple warranties the 2016 & 2017 keyboards for 4 years after purchase and the current 2018s should be immune from the most serious issues.

 

[thealkimist]

I am, eh? What makes you so sure of that and you so sure the expert?

As for followers...newsflash: Unfortuntely EVERYBODY follows the leaders, for good or bad, and very often with poor results. Why do 90% of today’s automotive grilles look like Audi’s, but where most just look like caricatures of angry fish. Apple is the leader for now but I don't think for long here on their over-minimalization-at-any-cost path.

LOL, I never claimed to be an expert but I do work in the field. Everyone follows leaders? It depends on what market you're talking about and what aspects of each product you're going to include. Apple is only a leader in certain ways but not in others.

Again, it’s ok for you to pick what’s too much or just right, but not me or others?

When did I ever say that? LOL

Physical toll from typing? Remember what I said about making the mistake about not looking at the extension of your design path along the extremes? How good might it be on your joints if tactile feedback were eliminated completely for a keyboard? Say, typing on an iPad from here out. No thanks.

Yes, your ignorance shows here. That is not Apple's intention - in fact the iPad typing experience is designed more from an MVP standpoint, not as the optimum experience.

Again, how much more is needed.

I don't know, because I don't have the data on hand with me right now. Companies that are serious about product design and creating at scale however do.

Geez. Most MacBook owners I know wish they could add ram or storage later after purpose. MOST.

Yes, and I'm sure the pool of people that you know are representative of the entire global market. That is not how you build a product, I'm sorry. In addition, most people that I know who love expandability with their mobile products never actually do it or utilize it the most capacity at the end of the day.

No offense but it’s that close-minded one size fits all our-way-or-the-highway that will likely drive me away from Apple more experienced I get with their products and with life in general. The thought that perhaps Apple products may not be for me the more Pro I get is fascinatingly silly, if anyone at Apple might actually feel that way. Their current product lineup sure seems like someone in charge there must feel that way.

You make a lot of convenient assumptions here. Apple's success is directly attributed to a kind of one-size-fits-all since day one. With this, they have not diverted much from their original approach, and they continue to succeed. Their pro line I agree has suffered a bit, but it has more to do with other factors that made creating mobile products more challenging today - this is a problem with all mobile computers, not just Apple.

 

[Tozovac]

If anything people should be happy Apple forced USB-C on everyone early. This means that these machines will take a long time to be obsolete due to TB3. Even when the next revision of TB arrives, we will still benefit from the tons of USB-C peripherals available by then. Flash drives, cheap external SSDs, displays, music interfaces (which are already available btw), eGPUs and whatever one can think of.

For many, including myself, all of that is negated by so few ports and the non-expandability. And the keyboard feel, to be honest. Everyone forgets that a laptop is pretty handy because it’s all in one. You can move it from desk to lap to car to rear porch/deck, room to room rather easily. Except, when the lack of expandability forces you to adapters, extensions, dongles, external drives, etc., which are truly a drag to deal with once you start moving around. Why is this apparently not at all obvious to the genius designers at Apple?
[doublepost=1532310803][/doublepost]

Everyone follows leaders? It depends on what market you're talking about and what aspects of each product you're going to include. Apple is only a leader in certain ways but not in others.

Unfortunately, Apple is somewhat of a special case in that many, and I mean many, follow Apple's whims and changes, even those followers have a product or service well outside of computer/entertainment tech. Apple shifts towards heavy use of white-out backgrounds, "light blue and side/up/down arrows + text" in place of "pressible-looking buttons," and frustratingly hard to read light-grey thin font, and suddenly every website and app is a white out with buttonless side/up/down arrows in place of intuitive buttons that's done in light-colored text that's even more difficult if not now impossible to read on iPhones that are already difficult to read outside on sunny days. Within a year, Ebay starts dabbling with white-out flat design pages using light blue text, and even Starbucks redoes their store menus away from rich, lush-looking dark menus with bolt white fonts to white menus with light brown and grey font, just to follow the fad started by Apple. Stupid.

In most everything Apple does, it (unfortunately) is a leader that many follow. And the more Apple veers towards what I consider to be over-minimalization to the point of virtually killing intuitiveness of design, and over-integration to the point that your computer is treated as a throwaway commodity with a useful life of just a few years just to be the thinnest or lightest (or thinner than last year), the worse it becomes as followers follow Apple's lead. But hey, that's just me and nobody else apparently feels that way. Nobody in numbers who's worth a darn to Apple at least.

When did I ever say that? LOL

Here, for at least one. (directly below):

1.) Less buttons - that is a good thing, but I do believe taking away the home button on the iPhone is bad design.

Yes, your ignorance shows here. That is not Apple's intention - in fact the iPad typing experience is designed more from an MVP standpoint, not as the optimum experience.

Ignorance may abound, I see. My point which I wasn't good enough to make clear was not that typing on an Ipad is Apple's intention towards their laptops. Typing on an Ipad was just a metaphor for typing on a hard non-keyboard flat hard surface as a relatable feeling/sensation to help me describe what I mean about extending Apple's minimalization trend ahead of where they’re at now but along the lines they seem to be heading, and how poor a direction it could possibly be. To spell it out a bit: Since obviously Apple is so hellbent on making things smaller, thinner, lighter, lesser, then it's a pretty logical assumption to predict they'll keep lessening some aspect of the keyboard hardware experience, or ports, or something we have now that Apple feels we all apparently won't need next year or the year after no matter how few of us feel the opposite, even after 5 years or more. Apple laptops have reached a point where there's not much more to take away...how much more is there to push just to keep pushing (if I have to spell it out further, see: this thread topic).

Yes, and I'm sure the pool of people that you know are representative of the entire global market. That is not how you build a product, I'm sorry. In addition, most people that I know who love expandability with their mobile products never actually do it or utilize it the most capacity at the end of the day.

The chance we'll unfortuantely never get is to see what would sell if Apple offered a slightly thicker expandable laptop for those cavemen like myself. To see how many users might select an iOS6-esque interface on our iPhones instead of the minimalist iOS7-11.

You make a lot of convenient assumptions here. Apple's success is directly attributed to a kind of one-size-fits-all since day one. With this, they have not diverted much from their original approach, and they continue to succeed.

You and many make a lot of convenient assumptions that Apple's one-size-fits-all approach was/is the only way or best way they'd succeed. No?

Their pro line I agree has suffered a bit, but it has more to do with other factors that made creating mobile products more challenging today - this is a problem with all mobile computers, not just Apple.

Tell you what, I think the *biggest* challenge towards making truly great mobile products today is Marketing's and the Design Team's need to constantly create & introduce something new & different. IMHO, that challenge results too often in change for the sake of change that too-often includes change in a worse direction just to be different or new.

 

[thealkimist]

For many, including myself, all of that is negated by so few ports and the non-expandability. And the keyboard feel, to be honest. Everyone forgets that a laptop is pretty handy because it’s all in one. You can move it from desk to lap to car to rear porch/deck, room to room rather easily. Except, when the lack of expandability forces you to adapters, extensions, dongles, external drives, etc., which are truly a drag to deal with once you start moving around. Why is this apparently not at all obvious to the genius designers at Apple?
[doublepost=1532310803][/doublepost]Unfortunately, Apple is somewhat of a special case in that many, and I mean many, follow Apple's whims and changes, even those followers have a product or service well outside of computer/entertainment tech. Apple shifts towards heavy use of white-out backgrounds, "light blue and side/up/down arrows + text" in place of "pressible-looking buttons," and frustratingly hard to read light-grey thin font, and suddenly every website and app is a white out with buttonless side/up/down arrows in place of intuitive buttons that's done in light-colored text that's even more difficult if not now impossible to read on iPhones that are already difficult to read outside on sunny days. Within a year, Ebay starts dabbling with white-out flat design pages using light blue text, and even Starbucks redoes their store menus away from rich, lush-looking dark menus with bolt white fonts to white menus with light brown and grey font, just to follow the fad started by Apple. Stupid.

Apple did not pioneer that with our mobile products - it was Windows and Android. In fact, the entire skeuomorphic debate was hotly contested within Apple, with Steve Jobs being the biggest advocate for it. It wasn't until Jobs passing that they decided to abandon their strict skeuomorphism, which I believe was a bad idea. Apple went in that direction after everyone else was going in that direction.

In most everything Apple does, it (unfortunately) is a leader that many follow. And the more Apple veers towards what I consider to be over-minimalization to the point of virtually killing intuitiveness of design, and over-integration to the point that your computer is treated as a throwaway commodity with a useful life of just a few years just to be the thinnest or lightest (or thinner than last year), the worse it becomes as followers follow Apple's lead. But hey, that's just me and nobody else apparently feels that way. Nobody in numbers who's worth a darn to Apple at least.

That's because over-complication was one of the biggest usability problems with computers since its introduction to the masses. You are ignorant sir. I agree with you Apple is going a bit too far on some points, but overall this trend has been better for users rather than worse. You are complacent because you are young.

Here, for at least one. (directly below):

Yes, where did I say I was an expert?

Ignorance may abound, I see. My point which I wasn't good enough to make clear was not that typing on an Ipad is Apple's intention towards their laptops. Typing on an Ipad was just a metaphor for typing on a hard non-keyboard flat hard surface as a relatable feeling/sensation to help me describe what I mean about extending Apple's minimalization trend ahead of where they’re at now but along the lines they seem to be heading, and how poor a direction it could possibly be. To spell it out a bit: Since obviously Apple is so hellbent on making things smaller, thinner, lighter, lesser, then it's a pretty logical assumption to predict they'll keep lessening some aspect of the keyboard hardware experience, or ports, or something we have now that Apple feels we all apparently won't need next year or the year after no matter how few of us feel the opposite, even after 5 years or more. Apple laptops have reached a point where there's not much more to take away...how much more is there to push just to keep pushing (if I have to spell it out further, see: this thread topic).

Now you are equivocating, by pretending that you made an argument in a way different than your original intention. No, you used the iPad keyboard as a proof of your argument, and it doesn't hold up.

I am also frustrated with the removal of ports and I do believe Apple is guilty of not making that transition easier. But if in 10 years we are still walking around with having to use many cords to connect to devices, then that is also a failure to innovate.

The chance we'll unfortuantely never get is to see what would sell if Apple offered a slightly thicker expandable laptop for those cavemen like myself. To see how many users might select an iOS6-esque interface on our iPhones instead of the minimalist iOS7-11.

Um, that exists. It's called a Windows computer.

You and many make a lot of convenient assumptions that Apple's one-size-fits-all approach was/is the only way or best way they'd succeed. No?

That is precisely why Apple is still succeeding and headed towards a trillion dollar valuation.

Tell you what, I think the *biggest* challenge towards making truly great mobile products today is Marketing's and the Design Team's need to constantly create & introduce something new & different. IMHO, that challenge results too often in change for the sake of change that too-often includes change in a worse direction just to be different or new.

What do you believe would be new and different for our mobile products that would be leagues better than what's out there? I'm curious what you think.