They were forced into this decision by the EU. If they had their druthers, they’d leave PWA in place and keep the requirement for WebKit. Lazy means that you give up other features their engineers could have been working on instead of a feature nobody uses. If you want to fault anyone, blame the EU for forcing this decision.
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Apple Confirms iOS 17.4 Disables Home Screen Web Apps in the European Union
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Let me chime in, because I feel like I'm on the same boat.
I love Macs, Airpods, Airtags, Apple Airport. I loved iPods.
I loved my iPhone in the past when Android was really unusable piece of crap. It was revelation to switch to the iPhone which was actually working. But we came a long way. Android is not such unusable piece of crap anymore (really, I've tried it). It's now hit or miss. iPhone is still great in some aspects but lacks in other - and visibly so.
I disagree with many recent Apple's actions because they seem to be anti-consumer and I want Apple products to be better. To fit me more. And Android is not perfect either, so please refrain from telling me this classic line: "then switch to Android". I don't want to. I want to keep using iPhone, I just wish it was better in some aspects.
Let's agree to disagree.
I really don't blame EU for being pro-consumer and for giving us possibility of choice. If anything I blame Apple for being anti-consumer. Stop defending Apple like it being some small garage company. DMA form has been around for two years. Apple is one of the biggest companies of the world. They could have implemented it right, if they wanted to - while still keeping all the new features in iOS 17 and 18 (there are not many new features anyway, so what we're even talking about?).
They decided not to. Fair. Their choice. I'm saying it again, I'm not bothered by PWAs specifically. I'm bothered with their approach to "sideloading" and alternate app stores - but that's another story.
This is the key ^^
Apple dragged their feet and procrastinated and here we are.
Nobody should be defending it -- it's ridiculous
If they cared about their users, and not just their own wallet, this wouldn't have happened like this.
macOS and iOS is different in how they implement Webkit in some areas and this is one of them.
Apple can do it on iOS too. Apple is quoted in this article saying they could do it but it would require spending resources changing the architecture:
"Addressing the complex security and privacy concerns associated with web apps using alternative browser engines would require building an entirely new integration architecture that does not currently exist in iOS [...]"
I didn’t say anything about putting Android on the iPhone. I said that the EU requirements were essentially turning iOS into an Android-like OS. People who like Apple don’t like that. When you have two flavors of vanilla to choose from, why would you choose Apple’s flavor? If you’re a chocolate lover, you’re now looking at a vanilla container where chocolate used to be.
They can’t work together very well if they don’t exist. In this particular case, we’re talking about Safari and one of its features. Take away Safari and a chunk of that ecosystem is gone. For instance, Safari works with their Sign-in with Apple, bookmarks across all Apple devices, credit card storage, hide my email, private relay, tracker blocking and auditing, built-in Apple Pay, built-in Apple keychain, and numerous other parts of the ecosystem. Take that out and you’ve lost a good chunk of the ecosystem. Why is that sad for Apple when the ecosystem is their greatest strength and is a big reason people buy Apple products? It’s obvious a lot of people buy Apple stuff because of how well their products work together. The EU is directly targeting that ecosystem. It’s not at all separate.
Yes, some parts of that ecosystem can be replaced on other apps, such as Chrome or Edge or whatever, but you’re now stuck with maintaining two or more distinctly separate data sources.
Web apps in iOS runs in Webkit currently, not in a sandboxed browser.
Webkit is tightly integrated into iOS and even though it's sandboxed it's more like 50% sandboxed. This isn't a problem when Apple controls the Webkit going into iOS 100%, but when any web browser engine would get the same access as Webkit it would be a problem.
Apple could fix this but said it won't use any resources to do so.
This is in contrast to how I became an Apple customer, which was awhile ago but probably more recent than you. I used to be anti-Apple for being closed and controlling, so I stuck to the more open and customizable Windows and (early days) Android devices. But after becoming ever-increasingly frustrated at the time I was spending researching how to customize and fix my devices when I really just wanted to use them (also a lot of that was just getting older and busier), the dam burst and I made the switch to iPhone and Mac. With how well they “just worked” out of the box, as individual devices and together in the ecosystem, from there the floodgates opened and I ended up getting more Apple devices that added value to my life.
I didn’t know it at the time but gradually I understood why my experience using Apple products was so much better for me. And it actually was better, it wasn’t just good marketing as the iSheep-accusers say—it was actually saving me time, energy, and aggravation, and giving me functions I never would have had otherwise because it would have required too much tinkering. I looked at what the differences were between Apple and Microsoft and Android, and came to understand that my differing experiences came down to their business models. Apple’s model wasn’t to design by democracy or provide the cheapest and most accessible products. It was to provide the best products for the most number of people. It was to do the hard work of trying to figuring out the experience most people want, executing it as uncompromisingly as possible, and then actually charging for it. It was this that allowed them to be able to provide the experience I wanted most as a customer, which was/is security, privacy, and convenience. And being able to execute uncompromisingly was in large part due to the thing I previously found irritating—Apple’s closed ecosystem and tight control. They didn’t have to support all kinds of 3rd party hardware creating more potential for bugs and vulnerabilities, and they were able to tell 3rd party developers to align their apps to the single set of standards that Apple aims to provide their customers. Of course mistakes are always made, and I don’t like everything about every Apple product, but broad strokes, as I said, using Apple products has been overwhelmingly better for me.
And this is why as both an Apple customer and a consumer in general, I’m against governments making changes at the level that the EU has. It starts to compromise a company’s core business model which is the core draw of its customer base. EU would be doing a good thing for consumers if Apple was abusing its customers who had nowhere else to go, but while many complain about the prices in this day and age when no one wants to pay for anything except with their privacy, Apple has an over 90% satisfaction rate last I checked, so even though Windows/Android are viable options, most Apple customers choose to stay because for them Apple provides the better value. And I’m sure Windows and Android users are largely satisfied too (I actually use a Surface Laptop Studio and I’m about 70% satisfied). In any case, those companies’ products fill an important need in the market. And to me that’s the free market at work, as it is meant to. Again, broad strokes, because no system is perfect.
I know it’s a very different perspective for 3rd party developers. I only speak as a consumer and an individual.
They've known this was coming for a long time
This poor "compliance" on their part was a choice due to their apathy and inaction.
Maybe some of the Scuba Mask team should have been doing some work on DMA compliance they've known about for a long time now.
No.
It's making it more like macOS and "people who like Apple" ... LOVE macOS
This has nothing to do with Android or Windows or anything else
We could start selling scarecrows with all these straw men
I was being a bit short in my explanation.
Web apps are secure as long they run in Webkit.
They might not be secure if run on any other browser engine.
Some of the problems are explained by Apple in the article.
By launching the web app in the default browser instead of Webkit, Apple fixed the security problem.
No, making it like macOS is the strawman. No EU regulator has ever said, make it like a Mac. They always point to Android.
While I mostly agree with your previous statements, I don't think the DMA is hindering Apple to do the good job they have been doing until now with hardware and software design. The requirements set by the DMA are only directed against very specific business practices that put companies who rely on the iPhone as a platform at a stark disadvantage. These companies have no choice but to be on the iPhone and have practically no leverage over Apple. It's a bad situation for competition and ultimately also for the customer.
Sorry, but that's just not true. Webkit is infamously insecure. https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=webkit
Saying something is secure because of webkit is really bad statement.
Yuck. Who’d want that? MacOS is user hostile for any touch device. Just ask Microsoft and their ever-failing quest for a hybrid OS. If Apple were to redo all of their OS’es, they’d make macOS more like iOS, not the other way around because macOS is not nearly as secure. They just can’t do anything about it without breaking millions of apps that already exist.
Why is it that so many people are opposed to security? I had my Mac hacked into where someone stole all my Ethereum from my Exodus crypto wallet, a very expensive thing and my computer never left home, despite being “safely” behind my firewall. My iPad and iPhone were completely secure, even when I inadvertently clicked on a phishing email, something that would have infected my Mac.
EU never pointed to any specific OS. EU never pointed to Android. You are just wrong. DMA and EU is really not telling Apple "do <something> like Android".
It was related to how much Apple would loose in App Store revenue due to additional app stores and side loading.
Again huge difference IE was a bad browser and MS was using its power to suppress better browsers directly. Nothing stopping Apple from making a better browser or improving web kit. Currently WebKit is holding on because Apple is using MS tactics by forcing lesser browser engines on people. It is not Apple fault that chromium is keeping up with standards and WebKit is falling behind. Hell the geoko engine is keeping up.
Typing this in Firefox right now
Finally dumped Safari anywhere I could
The extensions and cross platform experience is just night and day better for me
Europe or EU? The EU amounts for about 5-6% of the world's population. With App Store revenue at 7%, that is a large margin per citizen count.
Now, how does this ratio compare to other markets?
I wouldn't even call it a fact, just a statement. Like Phil Schiller saying that sideloading is dangerous and the macOS info page saying that it's safe.
They just use empty words not being backed by anything.
They charge $99 for developers just to be able to release their apps on the App Store. Big innovation.
Authoritarian EU. Right. Because the EU has rules?
I didn't know the DMA regulated UX design.
We don't care who has the highest rate, we care about them playing by the rules of our house.
Edge with Chromium is one of the best performing browsers on Windows.
Nobody wants to make anything the same. We have our own place and if Apple sells hot dogs without sauce, they can't say that we are not allowed to put our own sauce on it.
The EU is not trying to do any of that kind. If iOS getting sideloading would stop iOS from being iOS, it would actually be more like macOS than Android if you look at UI, codebase and features.
Also, Apple is not trying any of that, they are just trying to keep on stealing fromd evs who have the right to keep their money. In the EU at least that's the case.
They throw around that security card like Palpatine when he promised a more secure society with the first Galactic Empire.
Did Margarete whisper that into your ear?
If I don't like my ear, why don't I just cut it off?
The GDPR is protecting user rights. And the DMA is not designed in any such way. Unless being successful means being allowed to steal from others, then I would agree.
So if we have a law that says killing people is illegal and not all people follow the law, we should abolish the law?
It's to stop active blocking of competition, not opening up.
The choice of which marketplace I get my apps from was given back to me. Nothing was taken from me.
Revenue and number of users are based on calculations against the population and GDP of the market, therefore a market share is calculated. It's like a triangle; you know two data points, you can calculate the remaining one.
That's an oversimplification. You have a lot of options and flags to choose from, not to mention extensions. Chrome blocks third-party cookies by default and has a massive amount of developers working on Chromium and its engine, a vast superior amount of feedback and supervision from different angles.
The browser has such a market share for a reason, because when it comes to browsing, it just works.
What does Android get from iOS being allowed to sideload?
And if users on iOS install Chrome over Safari, that just means Safari is irrelevant or worse when the chips are even.
Apple Ireland, hehe.
Any data to back up that claim, or just the Apple propaganda?
Assuming Apple doesn't lie. Yet they do, as the lawsuits with the exposed emails have laid out.
Governments have far more capable security experts at their disposal than the MR forums.
Noooo! The DMA is purely anti-Apple and it's so unfair!
Just one more thought.
It seems funny to me, how every wanted feature, which Android already has, faces the same critique from many Apple users: "You're making iPhone Android, just use Android then."
But when Apple finally introduces such feature - it's greeted with huge applaud. Just to name a few
And yet we, who want iPhone just to be better a even more usable, are being almost burned alive for wanting iOS to be Android.
Also I see many hatred towards EU recently. But imagine that - USB-C is one if the biggest feats of iPhone 15 and RCS will be one of the biggest features of the iOS 18! Isn't this irony? Such bad EU, yet making iPhone so much better somehow... And giving Apple real selling points.
It seems funny to me, how every wanted feature, which Android already has, faces the same critique from many Apple users: "You're making iPhone Android, just use Android then."
But when Apple finally introduces such feature - it's greeted with huge applaud. Just to name a few
- widgets
- always on display
- USB-C
- Customizable button on iPhone 15 Pro
- better more powerful notifications
- Focus modes
- Files app
- Overall more customization (app folders...)
And yet we, who want iPhone just to be better a even more usable, are being almost burned alive for wanting iOS to be Android.
Also I see many hatred towards EU recently. But imagine that - USB-C is one if the biggest feats of iPhone 15 and RCS will be one of the biggest features of the iOS 18! Isn't this irony? Such bad EU, yet making iPhone so much better somehow... And giving Apple real selling points.
I am in no way saying Safari is the best browser, but it is often Chrome that is why sites don’t work well with other browsers. They are the current IE, and Google is using their monopoly power to force sites to adjust to Chrome’s quirks. There are no browsers that are fully compliant with standards and just work. Every major site has exception code, specifically for different browsers. Safari has practically no market penetration and no monopoly power at all, yet the EU is attacking it. My mention of IE is that even monopolies fall eventually. Chrome will fall, but the EU is busy attacking its competition.