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CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,971
12,134
San Diego, CA, USA
Unlike the Tissot (and other true Sapphire covers), Apple is using a Saphire coating, on top of another material. Most likely glass.
Did you bother watching the video in question? Or just go straight to using it as "evidence" for your viewpoint.

Sapphire is Aluminum Oxide. His testing found 90.2% aluminum oxide, 9.4% carbon, and 0.5% silicon. You can say it's not pure sapphire, but there is no way you can dismiss 90% of the total material being sapphire as "well it's glass with a thin sapphire coating" (unless you're being disingenuous). No, it's closer to sapphire with a thin glass coating (he found an extremely thin layer of silicon on the inner side of the lens). You seem to think the numbers are important but then you pay absolutely no attention to them whatsoever.

Here's a couple of quotes from around 6:20 in the video:
"the vast portion of the lens is aluminum oxide"
"the graph here is quantitative, so it is giving us an accurate percentage of elements"

Here are the numbers showing on the graph: Al 46.1% ... O 44.1% ... C 9.4% ... Si 0.5%

But according to you, 90% of the material is merely a thin coating on top of the other 10%? WTF?

Note the two huge spikes in the graph below, accounting for the overwhelming majority of the material - the two components of sapphire.

iPhone 7 camera lens testing.png
 
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justperry

macrumors G5
Aug 10, 2007
12,557
9,750
I'm a rolling stone.
Don't get it why people don't see the surface is cracked in the video instead of scratched, the guy applied to much force and says it scratched yet under the microscope you can clearly see all the cracks.
 
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Cazualchatter

macrumors newbie
Sep 19, 2014
23
11
Time to get into a class action suit with Apple for:
  • Causing immense discomfort to figure out the lens is glass on inside and sapphire and outside
  • Untold emotional struggles about realizing that Apple has shortchanged us over the idea that the sapphire will not scratch even if we scrub it on the floor or junior used it as a hammer
  • Lying under oath - isn't the spec sheet proof
  • Willful lying - its only glass on the inside
  • Impurities in the phone. This is not a pure iPhone!!!
Go people!!
 

D Wright

macrumors newbie
Oct 6, 2016
1
0
According to iMore's Rene Ritchie, there's a simple explanation for the discrepancy between Apple's claims and what's going on in the video. The tools used in the video aren't scratching the lens -- they're causing fracturing, as can even be seen when the sapphire is placed under the microscope, due to heavy pressure.Apple has used sapphire crystal for iPhone components for multiple years and maintains that sapphire crystal continues to be present in the iPhone 7 and the iPhone 7 Plus, a conclusion that was also ultimately reached in the video.

Who cares if it's a scratch or a fracture? If you have to use exact laboratory conditions to not render the lens useless then it's a bad design -- sapphire or not.

"Oh man, I just completely fractured my lens and now I can't use my camera. Well, at least it isn't scratched. Thank god that lens was made of sapphire!"
 

reisz

macrumors newbie
Jun 22, 2016
2
3
Who cares if it's a scratch or a fracture? If you have to use exact laboratory conditions to not render the lens useless then it's a bad design -- sapphire or not.

"Oh man, I just completely fractured my lens and now I can't use my camera. Well, at least it isn't scratched. Thank god that lens was made of sapphire!"

/facepalm

the contending issue here wasn't its durability under practical use but rather that Apple had conned its users into buying a phone with alleged "inferior" sapphire crystal, impure sapphire crystal or outright didnt use sapphire crystal.

hence the only way to derive an objective analysis of whether the material is sapphire is to do a hardness test whilst controlling the force to avoid fracturing the material.

Before you say that if the lens cover can be fractured so easily, its a flawed design! I'd suggest you revisit your elementary science lessons *hint* surface area
 

CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,971
12,134
San Diego, CA, USA
Speak for yourself. I frequently carry a diamond pick and blowtorch in my trouser pocket.
I challenge that with the hydraulic press I keep in MY trousers
Well I guess I won't mention the industrial water jet cutter and electromagnetic railgun then...
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That's just it, it's not that there is no sapphire on the lens. It is cheaply done with a sapphire coating.
The tests shown in the video show that over 90% of the material present in the lens is sapphire. Please explain how 90% of the material is merely "a coating" over the other 10% of the material. But, hey, why let facts get in the way?
 
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CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,971
12,134
San Diego, CA, USA
Who cares if it's a scratch or a fracture? If you have to use exact laboratory conditions to not render the lens useless then it's a bad design -- sapphire or not.
Or, here's a crazy idea... maybe don't go jamming extremely hard pointed objects into A CAMERA LENS. Would you stab an ice pick into your own eye? If not, then why purposely try the same sort of thing with your phone's camera lens?

Is your front door a "bad design", because it can't withstand getting hit by an armor-piercing round from the 120mm cannon of an M1 Abrams tank? Or is it sufficient for the intended purpose, because it will withstand the things expected to actually happen?

Apple has done a lot to make the cameras in their phones not get messed up. I have iPhones 4, 5, and 6, and despite roughly two years of daily pocket carry for each one, all the lenses are in pristine condition - not a hint of scratching on any of them. Apple says the lenses are sapphire, I have no reason to disbelieve them. Whatever they've done works great under practical conditions.

When you say, "If you have to use exact laboratory conditions to not render the lens useless then it's a bad design", it's hard to tell if you just really don't understand logic or if you're purposely misunderstanding the test in order to twist things around so you can "win". I bet I can hit the lens with a sledgehammer and it'll break - does that prove anything useful? No, absolutely not (other than it's not made out of Adamantium). There are carefully specified tests for determining hardness (that's the way science works). The claim is that the procedure in the video exceeded the conditions specified by the test standards. This claim seems entirely plausible. Does this have any practical bearing in the real world? Not really. Unless you go around stabbing your camera's lens with ice picks on a regular basis.

The lens is a very small part of the phone (in terms of surface area), it needs to be very thin, and it has been engineered to survive the situations it is likely to experience in practice (here's some news: they didn't use sapphire because it's a fun word to say, they used it in order to meet their goals for optical clarity and survivability). The watch crystal, on the other hand, is orders of magnitude larger, covers basically the entire front of the watch's mechanism, is much more exposed, expected to be mounted on your wrist most of the time, where it will often get bumped into all sorts of things - so it is, and needs to be, a lot thicker than the camera lens. Given this, the suggestion that the iPhone's lens fractured from too much pressure, rather than scratching (while the watch crystal survived the same pressure), is plausible. And, while interesting, the fact that it is possible to break the tiny camera lens by jamming hard pointy things into it is hardly surprising or a cause for concern.
 
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cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
4,972
This is not crystal, it is optical glass.

How scratch resistant is an uncoated premium camera lens usually?
 

joueboy

macrumors 68000
Jul 3, 2008
1,576
1,545
Still won't stop the naysayers. I believe the reason why the camera scratched so easily is because there is a coating on it.
Why you need a coating when the lens cover is sapphire and the coating ruins the lens. I don't see a logical reasoning here considering a genuine sapphire is almost as hard a diamond.
 

cube

Suspended
May 10, 2004
17,011
4,972
Why you need a coating when the lens cover is sapphire and the coating ruins the lens. I don't see a logical reasoning here considering a genuine sapphire is almost as hard a diamond.
A coating on a lens is there to make the optics better.
 

Mlrollin91

macrumors G5
Nov 20, 2008
14,120
10,106
Why you need a coating when the lens cover is sapphire and the coating ruins the lens. I don't see a logical reasoning here considering a genuine sapphire is almost as hard a diamond.
A coating on a lens is there to make the optics better.

What cube said, and more. The quad-flash is incredibly bright, and the coating is there to reduce reflectivity. I learned in another thread, if you hold the camera up to a fluorescent light, you will see a green reflection. This means there is an anti-reflective coating.
 

joueboy

macrumors 68000
Jul 3, 2008
1,576
1,545
What cube said, and more. The quad-flash is incredibly bright, and the coating is there to reduce reflectivity. I learned in another thread, if you hold the camera up to a fluorescent light, you will see a green reflection. This means there is an anti-reflective coating.
If you want anti reflective coating then it should be inside. Not outside to ruin the lens and I still don't get the whole sapphire if the covers scratched easily. Obviously there's something is going on in there either Apple is not honest or their manufacturer is not putting the right material.
 

CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,971
12,134
San Diego, CA, USA
Jerry Rigs Everything perhaps?
To "jerry rig" or "jury rig" it to do makeshift repairs on something, or hack something together* out of existing bits, what the military might call "field expedient repairs"; I believe this is what he's referring to. Not rigging as applied to elections/etc.

*: (long before the media made "hacker" and "evil person who breaks into other people's computers" synonymous, "hacker" mean someone who could poke around inside a computer, figure out how it works, and make it do new and interesting things.)
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Obviously there's something is going on in there either Apple is not honest or their manufacturer is not putting the right material.
Obviously. Because you have more experience building camera lenses than Apple. Who has shipped several hundred million cameras.
 

groovyd

Suspended
Jun 24, 2013
1,227
621
Atlanta
do you like making comments that are completely irrelevant to the discussion because it makes you feel good?

This is a conversation about Apple's camera lens being potentially susceptible to scratching, despite marketing and sales telling everyone it is Sapphire.

That's a big deal, as it's potential false advertising and to an extreme, Fraud.

does that in any way relate to Samsung's exploding battery fustercluck? no. Thats a disaster of it's own, but has NO bearing on this discussion, other than to show off how little you care to discuss the situation and just try and fanboy out for your own beloved brand.

What you have done is participate in the Logical Fallacy of "Tu quoque", or the "you too" fallacy. You attempted to engage in the conversation at hand by attacking something unrelated. You answered Criticism with Criticism, instead of defending against the criticism.

And for those who care: here's some further reading on Logical fallacies (in a pretty graphical way for us with short attention spans!), i just ask that if people are going to comment, you don't do it from fallacious position https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

LOL... but it IS sapphire and you are a black belt kung-fu in having no common sense. Ooops, another Tu quoque hahahaha
 

joueboy

macrumors 68000
Jul 3, 2008
1,576
1,545
Obviously. Because you have more experience building camera lenses than Apple. Who has shipped several hundred million cameras.
Your comment is irrelevant from the original comment about the lens cover. We're not talking about lenses, but rather the LENS COVER. Apple claims the cover is sapphire but it scratches easily. As we all know sapphire is next to diamond in terms of hardness. My assumption is that either Apple is lying about the material used or manufacturer (Foxcon) is putting the wrong material to save money.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,209
23,946
Gotta be in it to win it
Your comment is irrelevant from the original comment about the lens cover. We're not talking about lenses, but rather the LENS COVER. Apple claims the cover is sapphire but it scratches easily. As we all know sapphire is next to diamond in terms of hardness. My assumption is that either Apple is lying about the material used or manufacturer (Foxcon) is putting the wrong material to save money.
Or, it's some industry grade of sapphire.
 

eliahchen

macrumors newbie
Oct 12, 2016
19
1
So under Tim Cook, Apple now just made a new line of sapphire impurities. So instead of just making it out of glass. They throw away money to put expensive parts to degrade it to glass. Apple is definitely no longer the company I once knew. =-/
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Your comment is irrelevant from the original comment about the lens cover. We're not talking about lenses, but rather the LENS COVER. Apple claims the cover is sapphire but it scratches easily. As we all know sapphire is next to diamond in terms of hardness. My assumption is that either Apple is lying about the material used or manufacturer (Foxcon) is putting the wrong material to save money.

This type of business behavior most likely wouldn't of happened under Steve Jobs. Pay for sapphire and get glass like products? lol
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,461
43,381
Or, it's some industry grade of sapphire.
I would say its a less pure grade, but also very thin, based on the youtube. I'm not sure its any better then pure glass, at least from what I've seen in the video.

There must be a purpose for using this, because it would be cheaper for apple to use glass.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,209
23,946
Gotta be in it to win it
So under Tim Cook, Apple now just made a new line of sapphire impurities. So instead of just making it out of glass. They throw away money to put expensive parts to degrade it to glass. Apple is definitely no longer the company I once knew. =-/
[doublepost=1476269741][/doublepost]

This type of business behavior most likely wouldn't of happened under Steve Jobs. Pay for sapphire and get glass like products? lol

I would say its a less pure grade, but also very thin, based on the youtube. I'm not sure its any better then pure glass, at least from what I've seen in the video.

There must be a purpose for using this, because it would be cheaper for apple to use glass.
I agree, Apple is not a stupid company with throw-away engineering, or attempting to deceive the public. They have some use for this material in the future. Maybe cost vs hardness? Less hard than pure sapphire but less costly?
 

Radon87000

macrumors 604
Nov 29, 2013
7,775
6,251
Rene Ritchie is the textbook definition of an iSheep.Guy's articles make me cringe. Jerry already proved its not sapphire or even if it is its of a very low quality
 
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