Apple Could Be Forced to Follow New Digital Competition Rules or Face Fines, Under UK Proposal

[400]

Yet you trust Apple to show you the best results in the app store rather than the ones that make them the most money.

Trust is a relative thing. I trust Apple more than I would the Johnson government. I trust No10 to have an agenda here and it is not for my benefit.

remember this is a government with no talent, all brute force. One that has let NHS data loose and looked to sell it some more. Data they see as a tool for control and making money. Authoritarian in the making.

 

[George Dawes]

I trust apple a whole lot more than I do any government

I wouldn’t trust boris as far as I could throw him

 

[polyphenol]

thing is...what if one only takes 5% cut? epic will go to them, be fine, and everyone can get their games there. There will be competition...and it will be good.

If there is one lesson I have learned, it is that the simplistic competition model beloved of basic economics simply does not work.

A significant barrier to entry reduces the possibility of new competition. Existing competition has already largely come to some sort of balance point. Every sort of marketing game plan is used to try to trap customers.

If developers see, say, four major app stores, they might feel they have to offer their product on all of them. Extra time and effort managing them. Possibly even having to make changes to conform to the requirements of each of them. If they don't, they miss out on possible custom.

And each app store, seeing lower turnover on each product, will end up being able to do even less work on verification of product safety - whichis already too thin.

If there is no app store at all, each developer just offering their products directly, that is a big overhead. Payment mechanisms for each one. More marketing so potential customers can even find them.

A small app store would have limited market penetration. Limited appeal to developers however small their margin. If successful, ripe to be taken over. If unsuccessful, well, ripe for the scrapheap. Chances of growing into one of the top four of five, extremely low, probably impossible unless they have major backing.

If the app market gets balkanised, expect to see an overall increase in costs and prices. And reduced availability of smaller apps.

 

[amartinez1660]

So as a developer and a consumer, the English government wants to take away my choice of selling and buying to a platform where everything is safe, user friendly, and unified. And like most things like this, we can only complain if the rules aren't being followed, we can't complain if we want the new rules to bugger off.

While I do see good intentions in some of it, like unfair agreements sudden changes (which lately there are burst of emails regarding those for the things I use), all these antitrust fines collecting trend “in the name of the mistreated developers and consumers” means that people like you, a dev or a consumer or both, will be the main benefactors right? Right.

I call this yet another tax-like money grab venue.

Edit: forgot to mention, maybe this was Epic’s goal all along, to stir the pot to international levels even if their main action (breaking their own contracts and use agreements) and their ban is completely congruent.

 

[Expos of 1969]

I trust apple a whole lot more than I do any government

I wouldn’t trust boris as far as I could throw him

Mind your back if you try...

 

[Steve Adams]

If there is one lesson I have learned, it is that the simplistic competition model beloved of basic economics simply does not work.

A significant barrier to entry reduces the possibility of new competition. Existing competition has already largely come to some sort of balance point. Every sort of marketing game plan is used to try to trap customers.

If developers see, say, four major app stores, they might feel they have to offer their product on all of them. Extra time and effort managing them. Possibly even having to make changes to conform to the requirements of each of them. If they don't, they miss out on possible custom.

And each app store, seeing lower turnover on each product, will end up being able to do even less work on verification of product safety - whichis already too thin.

If there is no app store at all, each developer just offering their products directly, that is a big overhead. Payment mechanisms for each one. More marketing so potential customers can even find them.

A small app store would have limited market penetration. Limited appeal to developers however small their margin. If successful, ripe to be taken over. If unsuccessful, well, ripe for the scrapheap. Chances of growing into one of the top four of five, extremely low, probably impossible unless they have major backing.

If the app market gets balkanised, expect to see an overall increase in costs and prices. And reduced availability of smaller apps.

Thing is there are many "small app stores" that are thriving. Even in the apple jail break world. I think you are mislead on that one.

 

[polyphenol]

Thing is there are many "small app stores" that are thriving. Even in the apple jail break world. I think you are mislead on that one.

If they offer something different, possibly they can make some money. But I don't have any intention of jail-breaking my phone.

And just what faith can I have in these small outfits to properly verify apps? I'd be extremely unlikely to trust one of them sufficiently to pay for an app through them. I'd rather pay £10 for an app through Apple's appstore than £7 through a questionable third-party appstore - and I doubt I am alone.

By the time any of these small appstores grow large enough to be significant, they won't offer anything better than a very slightly lower cost to people like me.

 

[TVOR]

Spoken like a true american.

I actually agree completely...and I am 100% English...bred, born and raised. What does it matter where you are from? The UK traditionally has a hugely inflated opinion of its own importance based on the (now rather faded) halo effect of its previous global triumphs and influence.

For full disclosure, while you might not think it based on my "anti UK" sentiment, I did vote for Brexit, not because I am flag waving gammon - far from it...I am probably the least patriotic person you will meet - but simply because I believe that every country should be free to make its own laws and not be bound by regulations drafted by people who come from a different country with different culture and history and language.

 

[polyphenol]

I actually agree completely...and I am 100% English...bred, born and raised. What does it matter where you are from? The UK traditionally has a hugely inflated opinion of its own importance based on the (now rather faded) halo effect of its previous global triumphs and influence.

For full disclosure, while you might not think it based on my "anti UK" sentiment, I did vote for Brexit, not because I am flag waving gammon - far from it...I am probably the least patriotic person you will meet - but simply because I believe that every country should be free to make its own laws and not be bound by regulations drafted by people who come from a different country with different culture and history and language.

Do you support Scottish and Welsh independence?

(I'll not lob in Northern Ireland due to the exceedingly complex situation.)

 

[Michael Scrip]

If they offer something different, possibly they can make some money. But I don't have any intention of jail-breaking my phone.

And just what faith can I have in these small outfits to properly verify apps? I'd be extremely unlikely to trust one of them sufficiently to pay for an app through them. I'd rather pay £10 for an app through Apple's appstore than £7 through a questionable third-party appstore - and I doubt I am alone.

By the time any of these small appstores grow large enough to be significant, they won't offer anything better than a very slightly lower cost to people like me.

Exactly.

Plus... it's not really the people who are complaining. Apps can be had for as low as $1... or free. So it's not a cost issue for the consumer.

I've never thought "omg... app prices are too dang high! We need more app stores to lower prices!"

It's some developers who are complaining... particularly the ones who are large and who already have ecommerce infrastructure of their own.

They're the ones who don't like Apple's rules and restrictions... (even though they agreed to those terms long ago)

Remember when Epic was on stage in 2010 at the iPad launch event? They didn't have a problem then...

 

[TVOR]

Trust is a relative thing. I trust Apple more than I would the Johnson government. I trust No10 to have an agenda here and it is not for my benefit.

remember this is a government with no talent, all brute force. One that has let NHS data loose and looked to sell it some more. Data they see as a tool for control and making money. Authoritarian in the making.

"Authoritarian in the making"??? Welcome back! I assume you have been in a coma for the last few months! Here's what you have missed...mandatory vaccines by the backdoor, requiring proof of protected information in order to gain access to public places, 14 year long jail sentences for journalists who expose the government and "make them look stupid"...there is no "in the making"...this is the stuff of nightmares and, while the above are "we reserve the right" or "in discussion"...we all know where that is going!

 

[TVOR]

Do you support Scottish and Welsh independence?

(I'll not lob in Northern Ireland due to the exceedingly complex situation.)

Yup...100%

EDIT: with the caveat that I support it if it is a democratically decided issue and not one forced through in one direction or the other by government. If the people decide in a meaningful way (vote/referendum etc.) then I support it completely. I think that if a people are going to be governed...then they have a right to choose who they are governed by.

You either have to ditch the Wales and Scotland and just make it all England (which should never happen IMHO), or you have to give them the option to elect their own government with full control over their own laws.

Although, with that said, that works both ways. If they are independent, then they are independent...no access to UK funds or services, in the same way that the UK no longer has access to EU resources.

 

[400]

I trust apple a whole lot more than I do any government

I wouldn’t trust boris as far as I could throw him

That martinet is the figure head, move him and another will op up.

"Authoritarian in the making"??? Welcome back! I assume you have been in a coma for the last few months! Here's what you have missed...mandatory vaccines by the backdoor, requiring proof of protected information in order to gain access to public places, 14 year long jail sentences for journalists who expose the government and "make them look stupid"...there is no "in the making"...this is the stuff of nightmares and, while the above are "we reserve the right" or "in discussion"...we all know where that is going!

?
Yep, they are just tieing up their running shoes. This will in all likelihood get worse. They have a tame line up of MP's giving a majority in the house and Russians and other useless guaranteed votes elevated to the lords.
But vaccines, not mandatory as such, you have an option.
OFCOM and BBC are about to get reamed. You forgot Murdoch has a back door pass tp Tufton St. I sus[ect we are looking at a generation at least of damage to our democracy that is IF they get ousted at the next election.
Laws being passed now are scary, but they have a lot of bills they need to hammer through for the flash waving fan base and to secure their own. Which is why I think they have only just started.

 

[Steve Adams]

If they offer something different, possibly they can make some money. But I don't have any intention of jail-breaking my phone.

And just what faith can I have in these small outfits to properly verify apps? I'd be extremely unlikely to trust one of them sufficiently to pay for an app through them. I'd rather pay £10 for an app through Apple's appstore than £7 through a questionable third-party appstore - and I doubt I am alone.

By the time any of these small appstores grow large enough to be significant, they won't offer anything better than a very slightly lower cost to people like me.

As I said, if you don't want to use them you don't HAVE to. Fill your boots in the apple app store. Nobody is saying ONLY have the different stores and not have the apple store. Simple. It's so hard for people to grasp this idea?

 

[Michael Scrip]

As I said, if you don't want to use them you don't HAVE to. Fill your boots in the apple app store. Nobody is saying ONLY have the different stores and not have the apple store. Simple. It's so hard for people to grasp this idea?

I think people are worried about this:

Let's say I decide to only use the official Apple App Store. I'm fine. There's nothing to worry about with that.

But one of my friends decides to go off the ranch and download apps from some dodgy 3rd-party app store, or sideload an app, or whatever. And they download some rogue app that steals all their contacts and spams everyone in their contact list.

Now my information is out there because of some shady app... even though I chose to be safe and stay in the walled garden.

The possibilities for malice are endless if there is no oversight.

Are we sure some 3rd-party app store will be checking all their apps for hidden backdoors? Are we sure some 3rd-party app store will be protecting our credit card numbers?

I'll let you try it first...

 

[deckard666]

Problem here is No10. I couldn't trust them to tell me the sun is up. This will not be for anyones benefit apart from brexit flag waving. The two ministers quoted should set alarm bells ringing.

I live in the UK - Boris is an over entitled disaster and I wouldn't trust him to make jelly.

 

[Steve Adams]

I think people are worried about this:

Let's say I decide to only use the official Apple App Store. I'm fine. Nothing to worry about with that.

But one of my friends decides to go off the ranch and download apps from some dodgy 3rd-party app store, or sideload an app, or whatever. And they download some rogue app that steals all their contacts and spams everyone in their contact list.

Now my information is out there because of some shady app... even though I chose to be safe and stay in the walled garden.

The possibilities for malice are endless if there is no oversight.

Are we sure some 3rd-party app store will be checking all their apps for hidden backdoors? Are we sure some 3rd-party app store will be protecting our credit card numbers?

I'll let you try it first...

That's their fault for not understanding. However, that being said....i love how ONLY other app stores seem to have "dodgy" apps. There are tons of apps on APPLE'S app store that are just as you describe. So your point is moot.

 

[Steve Adams]

I live in the UK - Boris is an over entitled disaster and I wouldn't trust him to make jelly.

Sort of like the last abomination that was in the white house, and the current disaster that is trying to become Prime Minister here.

 

[Michael Scrip]

That's their fault for not understanding.

Who... my friend? They install a rogue app... yet I'm affected.

I'd like that not to happen. Thank you very much.

There are tons of apps on APPLE'S app store that are just as you describe. So your point is moot.

Hmmm... so there are some dodgy apps on Apple's App Store. And that's with App Review and whatnot. Fine.

Now imagine a 3rd-party app store with NO care or oversight. Nobody monitoring what data goes in and out.

Do you want your friends and family, or anyone in your contacts list to use that other app store? Do you want them to tap a link in an Instagram ad and be taken to some random app store where they could download some data-vacuuming app?

All I'm saying is... look at the possibilities. We've never had to deal with 3rd-party app stores because they simply weren't allowed.

But once the walls come down... anything is possible. You can't unring that bell.

All I can hope is that if Apple is forced to allow 3rd-party app stores... that they also put in extra precautions at the system level. Gatekeeper or whatever. Super-sandbox EVERYTHING.

Apple's not gonna let some unchecked app have deep system access.

They're probably gonna have to rewrite iOS to accommodate that. Thanks UK.

 

[Steve Adams]

Who... my friend? They install a rogue app... yet I'm affected.

I'd like that not to happen. Thank you very much.



Hmmm... so there are some dodgy apps on Apple's App Store. And that's with App Review and whatnot. Fine.

Now imagine a 3rd-party app store with NO care or oversight. Nobody monitoring what data goes in and out.

Do you want your friends and family, or anyone in your contacts list to use that other app store? Do you want them to tap a link in an Instagram ad and be taken to some random app store where they could download some data-vacuuming app?

All I'm saying is... look at the possibilities. We've never had to deal with 3rd-party app stores because they simply weren't allowed.

But once the walls come down... anything is possible. You can't unring that bell.

All I can hope is that if Apple is forced to allow 3rd-party app stores... that they also put in extra precautions at the system level. Gatekeeper or whatever. Super-sandbox EVERYTHING.

Apple's not gonna let some unchecked app have deep system access.

They're probably gonna have to rewrite iOS to accommodate that. Thanks UK.

So...you are stating ONLY apple can vet apps? every other store is just a free for all? wow, you are dilusional.

 

[Michael Scrip]

So... you are stating ONLY apple can vet apps? every other store is just a free for all? wow, you are dilusional.

We don't know. We've never had to deal with it on iOS. The App Store has always been locked down by design.

But yes... some bad apps on Apple's App Store slip through the cracks. I agree with you there.

So imagine if some other store is even more careless? Or they do it on purpose. Who knows what kind of scammy apps they'll let in there.

Apple doesn't want apps in the App Store that steal your data.

But another app store might not care about that at all. Hell... they may even work with the bad app makers. Cut a deal with them. That crappy Angry Birds clone is free... but the bad app maker and the bad store are sharing the profits made from selling your data.

Who knows. Anything like that is possible if there is no oversight.

But we're getting ahead of ourselves here. Nothing will happen any sooner than a couple years the way the court system works.

Assuming Apple is forced to allow 3rd-party app stores... can anyone build a store?

Can I build "Michael's App Store" and sell apps on iOS?

That might be pretty cool. I'll be good... I promise.

 

[Steve Adams]

We don't know. We've never had to deal with it on iOS. The App Store has always been locked down by design.

But yes... some bad apps on Apple's App Store slip through the cracks. I agree with you there.

So imagine if some other store is even more careless? Or they do it on purpose. Who knows what kind of scammy apps they'll let in there.

Apple doesn't want apps in the App Store that steal your data.

But another app store might not care about that at all. Hell... they may even work with the bad app makers. Cut a deal with them. That crappy Angry Birds clone is free... but the bad app maker and the bad store are sharing the profits made from selling your data.

Who knows. Anything like that is possible if there is no oversight.

But we're getting ahead of ourselves here. Nothing will happen any sooner than a couple years the way the court system works.

Assuming Apple is forced to allow 3rd-party app stores... can anyone build a store?

Can I build "Michael's App Store" and sell apps on iOS?

That might be pretty cool. I'll be good... I promise.

who knows' is right. But I think it's needed now. If you don't want it, don't select it. I think what we will see happen is apple loosening their claws on the 30 percent of EVERYTHING. Pretty well what Epic wants. They want to sell things in their game, and apple not take a piece of the pie. which is fine by me. If you sell a paid app on the store, totally apple deserves a piece of the sales. However, if you sell something in game etc, or like a movie on netflix, etc they should not be entitled to that income.

 

[Michael Scrip]

who knows' is right. But I think it's needed now. If you don't want it, don't select it. I think what we will see happen is apple loosening their claws on the 30 percent of EVERYTHING. Pretty well what Epic wants. They want to sell things in their game, and apple not take a piece of the pie. which is fine by me. If you sell a paid app on the store, totally apple deserves a piece of the sales. However, if you sell something in game etc, or like a movie on netflix, etc they should not be entitled to that income.

So it seems this is really about loosening Apple's 30% cut... not about having "more stores" to create competition.

We've already established that apps are much cheaper today than the old days of software distribution. Remember... people LOVED the App Store with its flat fees that favored the developer when it was first introduced 13 years ago.

But yes... times have changed now that more and more things are subscription-based or from external services (Netflix, Spotify, VBucks, etc)

So maybe Apple needs to change their policy on those types of external services. I believe Apple should get something... but not 30% on external subscriptions or digital downloads.

I think that would go a long way.

I'm still having a hard time understanding what would be gained from having more app stores that are simply a clone of the official Apple App Store, though.

Assuming it would be possible for Amazon to put their Appstore on iOS... why would I shop there? Or Samsung's Galaxy Store?

Or if you created "Steve's App Store" ?

It seems like it wouldn't do much for the consumer... plus it would add extra work for the developer to maintain their apps on two or the different app stores in addition to the official Apple App Store.

We can look at Android that does allow 3rd-party app stores. They haven't exactly been a boon for anyone, have they?

So yeah... I'm all for Apple's changing their fees for external services and digital downloads. Maybe we'll be able to buy Kindle books inside the Kindle app. Brilliant!

But I'm not quite sold on the idea of 3rd-party marketplaces.

 

[Steve Adams]

So it seems this is really about loosening Apple's 30% cut... not about having "more stores" to create competition.

We've already established that apps are much cheaper today than the old days of software distribution. Remember... people LOVED the App Store with its flat fees that favored the developer when it was first introduced 13 years ago.

But yes... times have changed now that more and more things are subscription-based or from external services (Netflix, Spotify, VBucks, etc)

So maybe Apple needs to change their policy on those types of external services. I believe Apple should get something... but not 30% on external subscriptions or digital downloads.

I think that would go a long way.

I'm still having a hard time understanding what would be gained from having more app stores that are simply a clone of the official Apple App Store, though.

Assuming it would be possible for Amazon to put their Appstore on iOS... why would I shop there? Or Samsung's Galaxy Store?

Or if you created "Steve's App Store" ?

It seems like it wouldn't do much for the consumer... plus it would add extra work for the developer to maintain their apps on two or the different app stores in addition to the official Apple App Store.

We can look at Android that does allow 3rd-party app stores. They haven't exactly been a boon for anyone, have they?

So yeah... I'm all for Apple's changing their fees for external services and digital downloads. Maybe we'll be able to buy Kindle books inside the Kindle app. Brilliant!

But I'm not quite sold on the idea of 3rd-party marketplaces.

It's mainly that. But there is more to it. For example, we will use epic games. They might want to create their epic games store. Why should they not be allowed to have it on every platform. Windows allows it, android allows it, why not iOS?

 

[Michael Scrip]

It's mainly that. But there is more to it. For example, we will use Epic Games. They might want to create their Epic Games Store. Why should they not be allowed to have it on every platform? Windows allows it, Android allows it, why not iOS?

Why? Simple. They're not allowed to do that on iOS right now.

We already know Apple's rules for selling an app on their store. It's well documented.

But if Apple is forced to allow 3rd-party app stores... I'm curious to know what those rules will be.

You know Apple isn't gonna let someone setup their own shop on their platform for free... right?

Think of a shopping mall. It's separate individually-run stores inside a larger collective.

But... stores pay rent to be in the mall. You can run your own business... serve your own customers... and handle your own payments, sales, and returns. But you must pay to be in the mall. You can't avoid that.

So... Epic Games... how about $20,000,000 a month for rent?

Apple has a very lucrative platform. With a billion users. So you're gonna pay to access them... simple!