Apple Could Be Forced to Open Up App Store in the UK

[surferfb]

But I7guy, you have not addressed my point ... when I buy a Mac I own the hardware but not the software, just like the iPhone. However on the Mac I can run what I like ... the SW does not prevent me ... but on the iPhone I cannot, I can only run what Apple dictates to me.

It's been addressed countless times in different threads. Different rules for different platforms make sense given the number of users, sophistication of said users, platform history, etc.. Quoting myself from another thread:

I let my nine-year-old walk down a busy street to his friends' house without supervision, why should it be any different with my three-year-old?

What's good for one isn't necessarily good for the other. MacOS and iOS are different platforms built in different eras, and were designed with different assumptions and different user bases (an exploit that impacted only 5% of iOS users would be equivalent to an exploit that impacted half of all Macs worldwide.). iOS was even designed after learning lessons from the Mac! The platforms serve different roles and audiences. The Mac is a workstation; the iPhone is a global communications hub. You design those with very different threat models.

And if I don't like the Apple prison, the Android one isn't much better! Why aren't both more open, just like MacOS and Windows computers?

How is Android any different than Windows? Honestly asking.

 

[I7guy]

The UK, the EU, China, Brazil, Australia, India, Japan, Turkey, even the US...

Maybe Apple's practices are the issue?

Except Apple does not have any illegal business practices. It’s funny when it comes to busting open the App Store at behest of government or deleting an app at behest of government gets a different reaction than creating a back door at behest of government. 🤷‍♂️

 

[ChrisMac47]

It's been addressed countless times in different threads. Different rules for different platforms make sense given the number of users, sophistication of said users, platform history, etc.. Quoting myself from another thread:

I let my nine-year-old walk down a busy street to his friends' house without supervision, why should it be any different with my three-year-old?

What's good for one isn't necessarily good for the other. MacOS and iOS are different platforms built in different eras, and were designed with different assumptions and different user bases (an exploit that impacted only 5% of iOS users would be equivalent to an exploit that impacted half of all Macs worldwide.). iOS was even designed after learning lessons from the Mac! The platforms serve different roles and audiences. The Mac is a workstation; the iPhone is a global communications hub. You design those with very different threat models.


How is Android any different than Windows? Honestly asking.

No idea, I stay away from both!

Both you and I7guy are telling me that Macs and iPhone are different beasts (BTW, apparently the next MB Air will have an iPhone processor!), and therefore should treated differently. I think that's the point that's upsetting all these regulatory bodies around the world (not just in UK & EU) ... why should these two devices be treated so differently? I don't buy the "security and privacy" argument ... I'm just as concerned about those things on my Macs as on my iPhone.

The main difference is that the iPhone is a cash-cow for Apple, whereas the Macs are a relatively small part of the business.

 

[turbineseaplane]

The main difference is that the iPhone is a cash-cow for Apple

This is at the base of the entire issue.

All the arguments defending Apple here are layered on top of this basic issue.

 

[surferfb]

No idea, I stay away from both!

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that as of today, anyone can develop and publish anything for Android without getting anyone's approval. If it wants to go in the play store, sure Google has to sign off on it, but otherwise it's just as open as the Mac or PC. That may be changing soon, because Google has realized that sideloaded apps are a significant vector for malware, but as of right now, its true.

Both you and I7guy are telling me that Macs and iPhone are different beasts (BTW, apparently the next MB Air will have an iPhone processor!), and therefore should treated differently. I think that's the point that's upsetting all these regulatory bodies around the world (not just in UK & EU) ... why should these two devices be treated so differently? I don't buy the "security and privacy" argument ... I'm just as concerned about those things on my Macs as on my iPhone.

The devices should be treated differently because of the size of the userbase (10x times more users than Mac), types of data on the device, the fact the device is generally kept on the person at all times and therefore has incredibly sensitive location data, and because we've learned from the Mac and PC that "anyone can install software from anywhere" is really bad idea for the vast majority of users.

And whether or not you "buy the security and privacy argument", the data overwhelmingly support it. Let's take a look:

• On Android, recent reporting from Google shows that the vast majority of malware originates from sideloaded or third-party apps ("our recent analysis found over 50 times more malware from internet-sideloaded sources than on apps available through Google Play.").
• A 2023 survey paper citing McAfee data reports 2.34M mobile malware cases, of which only 389 were on iOS.
• Apple cited between 15 and 47x more malware on Android than iOS (and helpfully explains why Apple designed iOS to be different than PCs and the Mac on page 6).

The same is true on the Mac, which sees far more malware than iOS precisely because it allows unrestricted installs.

• In 2019 Kaspersky found a trojan that affected 10% of the Macs Kapersky monitors. Malware that affected 10% of iOS devices would be equivalent to malware that hits EVERY MAC USER ON THE PLANET

 

[ChrisMac47]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that as of today, anyone can develop and publish anything for Android without getting anyone's approval. If it wants to go in the play store, sure Google has to sign off on it, but otherwise it's just as open as the Mac or PC. That may be changing soon, because Google has realized that sideloaded apps are a significant vector for malware, but as of right now, its true.



The devices should be treated differently because of the size of the userbase (10x times more users than Mac), types of data on the device, the fact the device is generally kept on the person at all times and therefore has incredibly sensitive location data, and because we've learned from the Mac and PC that "anyone can install software from anywhere" is really bad idea for the vast majority of users.

And whether or not you "buy the security and privacy argument", the data overwhelmingly support it. Let's take a look:

• On Android, recent reporting from Google shows that the vast majority of malware originates from sideloaded or third-party apps ("our recent analysis found over 50 times more malware from internet-sideloaded sources than on apps available through Google Play.").
• A 2023 survey paper citing McAfee data reports 2.34M mobile malware cases, of which only 389 were on iOS.
• Apple cited between 15 and 47x more malware on Android than iOS (and helpfully explains why Apple designed iOS to be different than PCs and the Mac on page 6).

The same is true on the Mac, which sees far more malware than iOS precisely because it allows unrestricted installs.

• In 2019 Kaspersky found a trojan that affected 10% of the Macs Kapersky monitors. Malware that affected 10% of iOS devices would be equivalent to malware that hits EVERY MAC USER ON THE PLANET

Fair enough, but I've loaded 100's of programs on my Mac over the past 30+ years (starting with the SE30), not via the Mac App store and never had any problems, ever, with malware! I do not run sophisticated malware detection, just Sophos on my Macs.

Sorry, I still don't buy your security and privacy argument, I think you're just (for some inexplicable reason) repeating Apple's excuses for protecting its 40% margins!

 

[surferfb]

Fair enough, but I've loaded 100's of programs on my Mac over the past 30+ years (starting with the SE30), not via the Mac App store and never had any problems, ever, with malware! I do not run sophisticated malware detection, just Sophos on my Macs.

Sorry, I still don't buy your security and privacy argument, I think you're just (for some inexplicable reason) repeating Apple's excuses for protecting its 40% margins!

I’m sorry, but saying:

“I, a power user who’s spent 30+ years installing software and hanging out on tech forums, have never had a virus on my Mac. Therefore Apple is lying when it says it’s worried about malware on a platform used by over a billion people, even though the alternative platform I want Apple to emulate has a dramatically higher malware rate, and its own creator cites ‘installing apps from anywhere’ as a key reason for that fact.”

doesn't hold up. It's like saying "I'm a careful driver and have never been in a car accident, so seatbelt laws are unnecessary."

You might be careful and tech-savvy enough to avoid problems. I've never gotten a virus on my Mac either, and my first one was also a SE 30 (well, it was my dad's, but the first one I used)! But you and I are not representative of the average iPhone owner. Apple designs its policies for the median user, not MacRumors posters who knows what Sophos is.

My Mother-in-Law recently almost got scammed from a malicious Chrome ad that took over her MacBook in full screen, showed her the Windows "blue screen of death" and said "call this number to fix." She told me had I not been around she would have called the number. THAT is who Apple is trying to protect with its rules.

 

[ChrisMac47]

a power user ....

Thanks, you've made my day! (my friends would die laughing at that description of me!)

 

[frenchcamp49er]

Apple might as well just give in and open up iOS / iPadOS almost every country is going after them

And you might as well open up your home and give all your stuff away for free

 

[maxoakland]

Or alternatively, let the market decide for itself....Oh wait.

“Let the market decide for itself” is a naive view of markets that misunderstands human behavior and markets

 

[I7guy]

“Let the market decide for itself” is a naive view of markets that misunderstands human behavior and markets

Totally takes into account human behavior and markets. Vote with your $$$ rules.

 

[danpass]

Ultimately Apple and Google are being targeted for their success. They don’t force anyone to use them.

And how convenient it must be for governments to grant new powers unto themselves.

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[ChrisMac47]

Ultimately Apple and Google are being targeted for their success. They don’t force anyone to use them.

And how convenient it must be for governments to grant new powers unto themselves.

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On the contrary, we are increasingly forced to use some kind of device to access the internet, and overwhelmingly that device is the mobile/cell phone. So we ARE forced to use either Apple (iPhone) or Google (Android) devices.

As a trivial example ... but a sign of the times ... from 12th November it will be impossible to board a Ryanair flight in Europe without an electronic boarding pass on your phone ... there is NO option for using a paper boarding card. No phone, no travel (on Ryanair)! OK, I accept this is a "first-world problem", not exactly the end of the world. But with the increasing use of digital ID cards, the phone will be essential. And banking is going the same way.

So we are forced to choose between Apple and Google. They are providing a commodity service and cannot just do what they like.

 

[I7guy]

On the contrary, we are increasingly forced to use some kind of device to access the internet, and overwhelmingly that device is the mobile/cell phone. So we ARE forced to use either Apple (iPhone) or Google (Android) devices.

As a trivial example ... but a sign of the times ... from 12th November it will be impossible to board a Ryanair flight in Europe without an electronic boarding pass on your phone ... there is NO option for using a paper boarding card. No phone, no travel (on Ryanair)! OK, I accept this is a "first-world problem", not exactly the end of the world. But with the increasing use of digital ID cards, the phone will be essential. And banking is going the same way.

So you can’t use a computer a laptop?

So we are forced to choose between Apple and Google. They are providing a commodity service and cannot just do what they like.

Well commodities should be able to do what they like obviously within the framework of existing laws. (Unlike the DMA)

 

[danpass]

On the contrary, we are increasingly forced to use some kind of device to access the internet, and overwhelmingly that device is the mobile/cell phone. So we ARE forced to use either Apple (iPhone) or Google (Android) devices.

As a trivial example ... but a sign of the times ... from 12th November it will be impossible to board a Ryanair flight in Europe without an electronic boarding pass on your phone ... there is NO option for using a paper boarding card. No phone, no travel (on Ryanair)! OK, I accept this is a "first-world problem", not exactly the end of the world. But with the increasing use of digital ID cards, the phone will be essential. And banking is going the same way.

So we are forced to choose between Apple and Google. They are providing a commodity service and cannot just do what they like.

You make the point for me.

Others are mandating digital ID, not Google, not Apple. Does it have to be a phone? Perhaps not in the future, it could be an ipad mini, it could be some 'travel device', one that allows people to avoid using their phone.

(but making it the phone, at least for now, means that the user will have to unlock the phone to show the ID. This opens the door to look into the phone. This is a separate issue .... just watch, Google/Apple/someone will make it so that the boarding pass can be visible on the lock screen and the government will slip in, somehow, someway, to make that 'illegal')

I intentionally get the paper slip. Mandating the use of an electronic device is just another means of control.

And the REAL reason Ryanair is doing this?

Data.

Data on you, targeted advertising to you, about controlling you. You have to use the Ryanair app.


-

 

[ChrisMac47]

You make the point for me.

Others are mandating digital ID, not Google, not Apple. Does it have to be a phone? Perhaps not in the future, it could be an ipad mini, it could be some 'travel device', one that allows people to avoid using their phone.

(but making it the phone, at least for now, means that the user will have to unlock the phone to show the ID. This opens the door to look into the phone. This is a separate issue .... just watch, Google/Apple/someone will make it so that the boarding pass can be visible on the lock screen and the government will slip in, somehow, someway, to make that 'illegal')

I intentionally get the paper slip. Mandating the use of an electronic device is just another means of control.

And the REAL reason Ryanair is doing this?

Data.

Data on you, targeted advertising to you, about controlling you. You have to use the Ryanair app.


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I agree, but the point I was making is that, at present, it's the phone that is the practical digital device that has to be used for many daily transactions. (I7guy: are you suggesting I use my laptop at the Ryanair boarding gate?! Or use my laptop to pay at the supermarket checkout?!).

To carry out many aspects of daily life nowadays, the phone is almost (but thankfully not quite!) essential, and we have only two choices of systems, iOS or Android, and BOTH come with their problems.

And yes, it's all about (our) data!

 

[I7guy]

I agree, but the point I was making is that, at present, it's the phone that is the practical digital device that has to be used for many daily transactions. (I7guy: are you suggesting I use my laptop at the Ryanair boarding gate?! Or use my laptop to pay at the supermarket checkout?!).

To carry out many aspects of daily life nowadays, the phone is almost (but thankfully not quite!) essential, and we have only two choices of systems, iOS or Android, and BOTH come with their problems.

And yes, it's all about (our) data!

If the dictate is for digital boarding passes vs digital boarding passes on smartphones one is using a device that supports digital passports the other is a form of control as was mentioned. And if you want to use your Mac for Apple Pay at the supermarket, more power to you.

As an aside my wife told me a colleague of hers lost their phone in Paris and went two weeks without a phone. So it’s possible not convenient but possible.