Apple Defends App Store Changes in the Netherlands as Fines Reach €30 Million

[abhibeckert]

... benefits both Dutch developers and consumers.

honest question: how many Dutch dating apps/developers are there? and I mean developed in the Netherlands

It sounds like this isn't about where the developers are. It's about where the customers are.

So a US dating app would be able to take advantage of it if they have at least one customer in the Netherlands.

But there are dating apps based there. Inner Circle for example which has millions of users.

 

[webkit]

Classifieds are not where the money is for newspapers.

I used to work for advertisement agencies, when papers and tv were still the two main pillars of advertisement. It was standard that the ad agency received a large cut of the price of each ad. I would not be surprised if it were often more than 30%. Meanwhile, the costs were almost entirely for the paper (material, printing, distribution). This in addition to the profit the ad agency already made on a campaign.

Classifieds used to definitely be a notable revenue and profit source for newspapers.

As far as agency commissions go, the standard rate is 15%. A newspaper would pay 15% to recognized agencies via a discount off the full ad rate. The agency would be billed by the newspaper at 85% and then turn around and charge the client 100% with the agency thereby keeping the 15% difference. Depending on the type of campaign and total value of the ad purchase, the agency may or may not also charge the client additional fees.

 

[theotherphil]

They promised to keep innovating and bring in new ideas. But now they are too busy trampling over others to milk dry their large cash cow that is their loyal user base.

1. No USB C on iPhones.
2. No Pro apps on iPad Pro.
3. Locked down App Installation even in 2022. Which makes no sense.
4. Chargers no longer ship with the device.
5. Earpods no longer ship with the device.
6. No compensation for that or price drop for missing accessories. If its really for the environment, why do they sell the charger separately? Why not just allow anyone to get it for the same price if they need it. Or give us a Apple Store voucher to buy it if we need.

Apple is really gone too far with this.

Bundling accessories could also be seen as anti-competitive by “tying” Apple’s accessories to their iPhone and iPad. A user may have chosen from any one of the numerous earphone manufacturers but because they got a set for free, they may not make an aftermarket purchase. Spotify has already cried foul when they weren’t allowed on the Homepod in the early days….which is interesting as there is no Apple Music on their new “CarThing” ?‍♂️

As to your other points, you knew this going in to the Apple ecosystem.

Apple literally can’t win.

 

[theotherphil]

I’d guess it’s to offers features unavailable to web sites, like push notifications.

Push notifications are available to WebApps as of iOS 15.4 beta.

 

[svish]

Looks like matter will go to court.

 

[theotherphil]

I haven't said that Apple devices aren't in direct competition with the ones of other brands. They are.

Just refuted the idea that App Stores the likes of Apple are in competition. I live in Portugal, you live in the US ... our businesses are not in competition unless I open business in your region or you open business in mine. The same for whatever in the region of iOS or Android or whatever device platform.

The reasoning that if the container A is in competition with container B therefore so are its individual components is a logical fallacy.

This farcical reasoning has been played over and over and over by Apple proponents. No matter how many times a lie is repeated it does not become truthful. Just reality might become less authentic if perpetuated and we all know where that leads to ...

Concluding, Devices/OSs are in competition between each other, not necessarily their components individually. Case in case the App Stores.

Corollary: Having the option of not using a container does not percolate as the option of not using one of its components.

For instance, it would be ridiculous for you to say to your customers in the US ... "You have the option of not buying from me ... just move to Portugal". The reason has to do with the fact that other forces are at play that make it not an authentic option. Its creating a false dilemma!

Simple.

This isn’t Buger King and you can’t have it your way. Until a court rules that I can buy a Big Mac in Burger King, then your argument holds no water.

 

[DFZD]

Devs need to understand how good the iOS app store is compared to the play store. There will always be unhappy devs…such as epic. Imo, businesses can’t afford to cater to the minority, such as epic… apple kicked their butt out of the App Store.

Why do always give the example of Epic? They are just one exception. 98% developers on App Store don’t even make their investment back.

Bundling accessories could also be seen as anti-competitive by “tying” Apple’s accessories to their iPhone and iPad. A user may have chosen from any one of the numerous earphone manufacturers but because they got a set for free, they may not make an aftermarket purchase. Spotify has already cried foul when they weren’t allowed on the Homepod in the early days….which is interesting as there is no Apple Music on their new “CarThing” ?‍♂️

As to your other points, you knew this going in to the Apple ecosystem.

Apple literally can’t win.

Please tell me why shouldn’t people label you a Apple Fanboy when you make such poorly thought out agreements to defend Apple while I raised such valid points to improve products that I paid top dollar to own.

 

[123]

Why do dating services even need apps, they could run their services through websites

If you ask this question, why don't you use Android?

 

[AdonisSMU]

So the Netherlands is trying to dictate the App Store rules in other countries as well. This is some bs. The EU nations need to stop doing stuff like this. It’s not helpful. I think Apple should charge a per download fee to companies who dont want to use the in-app payment system Apple has set up.

 

[boss.king]

So the Netherlands is trying to dictate the App Store rules in other countries as well. This is some bs. The EU nations need to stop doing stuff like this. It’s not helpful. I think Apple should charge a per download fee to companies who dont want to use the in-app payment system Apple has set up.

I believe the EU is looking into this in parallel with the ACM. But even if they’re not, how did you reach the conclusion that this would dictate the rules of the App Store in other countries? Devs could simply disable alternative payment methods for other countries, I don’t believe that’s a particularly tricky thing to do.

 

[AdonisSMU]

I haven't said that Apple devices aren't in direct competition with the ones of other brands. They are.

Just refuted the idea that App Stores the likes of Apple are in competition. I live in Portugal, you live in the US ... our businesses are not in competition unless I open business in your region or you open business in mine. The same for whatever in the region of iOS or Android or whatever device platform.

The reasoning that if the container A is in competition with container B therefore so are its individual components is a logical fallacy.

This farcical reasoning has been played over and over and over by Apple proponents. No matter how many times a lie is repeated it does not become truthful. Just reality might become less authentic if perpetuated and we all know where that leads to ...

Concluding, Devices/OSs are in competition between each other, not necessarily their components individually. Case in case the App Stores.

Corollary: Having the option of not using a container does not percolate as the option of not using one of its components.

For instance, it would be ridiculous for you to say to your customers in the US ... "You have the option of not buying from me ... just move to Portugal". The reason has to do with the fact that other forces are at play that make it not an authentic option. Its creating a false dilemma!

Simple.

It’s far easier to simply buy the product that does what you want it to do than it is to move to another country. It’s ridiculous that this is the level of logic being brought into the discussion. It’s not even on the same country as reality or real life. You can click purchase on the Samsung or Google website just like you can’t the Apple website from the comfort of your own home. No moving involved.

Everything doesnt have to be for everybody. The features are there and well known. These people developed apps knowing the rules for the App Store. Users use the Iphones and App Stores knowing full well the benefits and downsides for them. iPhone was specifically designed to not be for everybody but to be for those who want it.

“You need to change your whole business model because I can’t make that extra nickel on the crappy dating app I built.” The Netherlands and EU and China trying to legislate for the whole world… well I dont like that at all. Apples method keeps EU bs in the EU and the Netherlands bs in the Netherlands Etc etc… as it should.

 

[AdonisSMU]

I believe the EU is looking into this in parallel with the ACM. But even if they’re not, how did you reach the conclusion that this would dictate the rules of the App Store in other countries? Devs could simply disable alternative payment methods for other countries, I don’t believe that’s a particularly tricky thing to do.

Thats the implication based on what was stated in the article. Apple said just submit a separate build with the payment method of your choice. That is not unreasonably hard to do either as one can simply fork or branch the code and tweak the build process to send out both builds To the App Store.

TBQH…. I actually think Apple should offer a more expensive developer option that allows people to use their own payment system...like charging the company a per download fee or a higher up front yearly cost or something. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone ends up paying for it.

 

[LarxJo]

For those who say the AppStore belong to Apple. Yeah indeed. And Netherland belongs to Netherland. So either Apple respects the law or get the f... off. Apple is ready to push a company bankrupt when they suddenly changes retarded rules for no reason at all that doesn't profits anyone but themselves and does not increase security or privacy. So if Apple does that, why couldn't a country do the same to Apple?
Let the bully be bullied!

 

[Abazigal]

For those who say the AppStore belong to Apple. Yeah indeed. And Netherland belongs to Netherland. So either Apple respects the law or get the f... off. Apple is ready to push a company bankrupt when they suddenly changes retarded rules for no reason at all that doesn't profits anyone but themselves and does not increase security or privacy. So if Apple does that, why couldn't a country do the same to Apple?
Let the bully be bullied!

They can, but Apple is also well within their rights to offer their own interpretation of the rules, which from what I have seen, is not necessarily incorrect.

The (largely) unsaid intention of wanting third party payments is really to get around Apple’s 15/30% cut (likely 30%, since it’s the larger companies pushing for this). Since the government hasn’t yet come out and said that Apple must allow developers on their platform and somehow be expected to not charge them a single cent (because the reality is that you can’t really justify why 30% is unreasonable), Apple is still well within their rights to charge existing developers a platform fee.

And since the payments will not go through iTunes, Apple will have no way of knowing how much revenue these developers bring in, barring costly and labour-intensive external audits. Which is precisely what they are doing.

It’s entirely logical when you think through the whole process. Right from the start, I expected that Apple would respond in a similar fashion, and I guess I am more amused by the detractors acting all shocked and outraged that Apple would have the temerity to put up a fight.

The most scary Apple is an Apple who genuinely believes that they are in the right, and if it’s a fight the Netherlands wants, then I hope it’s a fight Apple gives them.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

It’s far easier to simply buy the product that does what you want it to do than it is to move to another country. It’s ridiculous that this is the level of logic being brought into the discussion.

What will you do when you don't have just one product ... the iPhone ... change Car ... home ....? These products play in a network.

There is no level of logic, just logic. Ridiculous is people passing fallacies as reason, logic.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

This isn’t Buger King and you can’t have it your way. Until a court rules that I can buy a Big Mac in Burger King, then your argument holds no water.

Don't go to BK or Mc. What way is mine?

Just to clarify, my only concern is that us, the user, who pay for all this in the future don't need to pay for revenue shares with Big Tech mothers and fathers to use our cars, homes, to get a ride or a date ... so on and so forth ... because of something as mundane and low in actual cost as a bunch of files making up a software program that need to be safely distributed over the Internet and installed on our properties. Albeit clever, is for me toxic, something with little technical cost is turned into something with infinite value due to policies. That is all.

The price of software in iOS just went up several orders of magnitude since the App Store inception. Something that we were paying $2.99 to $4.99 once a while is now +$40 a year. People are enlisting their credit cards on subscription after subscription sometimes for things as ridiculous as a library of wallpapers or as simple has a notepad ... sometimes not even that ... Almost everything now is a subscription ... what's the thing are actually one subscribing to for 45$ a year ... 10 sheets of colouring figures specially curated for the family in a year ... bang design award?

You opt to download an app with simply a label of in app purchase which basically means a hidden subscription and have no idea of its actual cost. A environment based on duplicity in my opinion. I need to resort to Google to actually have a sense what something really is. In what way this is fare and safe environment for the user have no idea. Indeed one cannot steal something that has been given.

 

[wanha]

You do realize Apple is a for profit company, correct?

You really like brushing in broad strokes, don't you

Yes, Apple is a for profit company.

However, Apple's decision to maximize profit with the App Store - that Phil Schiller warned the Apple executives in an email 10 years ago! - is damaging the Apple brand in the eyes of regulators and developers.

What I - and many others here argue - is that Apple's short term insistence on profit maximization on the App Store will cost them significantly more in the long run.

 

[iHorseHead]

I hope the Netherlands will fine them more

 

[Nuno Lopes]

“You need to change your whole business model because I can’t make that extra nickel on the crappy dating app I built.”

Oh. You meant this level of logic. Nickel for one is not a nickel for other to demand a share on I guess.

Funny enough I believe that Apple is way more in the right than this stance of yours shows. In fact this stance reveals why probably this issue is reaching such a ridiculous magnitude.

 

[Rainshadow]

Humm. Have you noticed that when using Intel chips the MBA and the MBP got thinner and thiner. That was the way. Came the M1 and came thicker designs? Remember the Macbook, the thinnest laptop I ever seen ... a flop ... I think the first Mac with a membrane keyboard? What? They needed to develop their own silicon to realize that there are indeed greater thermal constrains the thiner the thing gets ... oh and keyboard get more fragile?

Look. I really like my M1 Pro, the battery life is a revelation ... but they have been putting the Intel hardware through the thin is always better design hell

My M1 MacBook Pro is literally the same thickness of the most recent intel one. It’s the same… and it’s more powerful and has better battery.

I’m confused what you are saying about thinness vs Intel. And while the larger M1pro/max is thicker, all rumors are suggesting the new MacBooks or macbook airs will be thinner still… So your comment doesn’t make much sense.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

I’m confused what you are saying about thinness vs Intel. And while the larger M1pro/max is thicker, all rumors are suggesting the new MacBooks or macbook airs will be thinner still… So your comment doesn’t make much sense.

Do not comment on rumors. I meant the pro level revised MBP. It makes some sense in the current reality.

By the end of the year … remains to be seen. Expect not to make sense then.

 

[sudo-sandwich]

Apple is slowing becoming the very thing it promised to fight.

First it said all this protection is for consumer privacy and now that its pretty clear its for profits, apple is behaving like a Rogue tyrant that is poking elected democratic governments.

Why do they all go this way? First Google, then Lone Musk and now even Tim Apple.

I've got a big rant on some other post about how Apple is just milking its past success... but they're looking way more trustworthy than the Dutch government. Why are dating apps getting special treatment, huh?

 

[sudo-sandwich]

May be I am too early, where are the pull out of Netherland crowd?

Right here.

 

[DFZD]

I've got a big rant on some other post about how Apple is just milking its past success... but they're looking way more trustworthy than the Dutch government. Why are dating apps getting special treatment, huh?

My comment was more on them not respecting courts and laws. If they don’t agree with the verdict they can challenge it but such disregard for laws doesnt look good.

 

[Abazigal]

The price of software in iOS just went up several orders of magnitude since the App Store inception. Something that we were paying $2.99 to $4.99 once a while is now +$40 a year. People are enlisting their credit cards on subscription after subscription sometimes for things as ridiculous as a library of wallpapers or as simple has a notepad ... sometimes not even that ... Almost everything now is a subscription ... what's the thing are actually one subscribing to for 45$ a year ... 10 sheets of colouring figures specially curated for the family in a year ... bang design award?

Or maybe it simply meant that $2 for an app was never a sustainable business model to begin with.