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Apple Delays Rollout of Controversial Child Safety Features to Make Improvements
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Apple has said that once a 30 match is made on your iPhone an example will be sent to an employee at Apple to review. Once that Apple employee sees something unpleasant that person will notify the authorities. So yes, some sad sets of Apple employees will have to review these 24 hours a day. (Probably getting paid minimum wage - hopefully psychiatric care is included). Actual people have to look at these, and by reporting them immediately they aren’t breaking the law.
Just use another phone then. It's just a phone, not some life changing event.
No, it's not, not even close. I own the phone, they own the iCloud and that's a VERY big difference. Think of it like your own property ratting you out verses someone else's server that you may or may not use. They can do all they want on their property, they cannot do what they want on my property.
Now you're not making any sense, but I assume you mean the CSAM scanner, and yes, they would eventually get caught if they expanded things without telling us and it would be very bad for them. Of course since the scanner is already there, government's could tell them to do it anyway since the software is already there to do it. And since a lot of people like yourself would accept it, government's surveillance win, we all lose. (including Apple, because enough people would just throw away their iStuff.)
This is not about CSAM or protecting the children at all. This is all about deploying the software framework, the mechanism on every Apple device for future use cases. Apple has caved into the US Gov to install this framework on Apple devices and is using CSAM as the excuse to get this accepted by the public. Privacy is out of the window with this software. Don't only look at today, look at the morrow.
Apple must not allow this software on Apple devices. If they don't change I hope sales is significantly affected, and it deserves to be. It has made me very reluctant to buy another Apple device. Apple have lost all trust
Apple must not allow this software on Apple devices. If they don't change I hope sales is significantly affected, and it deserves to be. It has made me very reluctant to buy another Apple device. Apple have lost all trust
That was then, this is now. It once may have been.
Yes, but he was talking about during the development of the CSAM Detection System:
"anyone disturbed just a tad that there is a whole group at Apple that is studying how to identify Child Porn and how to program some computer to recognize it? That means that have to have examples of it....that means they have to study it, that means they have to develop requirements for this SW, that means they have to develop algorithms to figure out that this picture is child porn vs a kid taking a bath or in a swimming pool....
Then someone has to review these results to make sure they are correct and meet the requirements of the SW product."
Why not? Do you have inside info into Apple’s hardware & software? Even if your suspicions are true, with iCloud photo sharing disabled, NOTHING is ever sent to Apple. No person at Apple can view the images on your devices. So no person at Apple can send the authorities after you. Apple told its customers how to disable this “feature” probably pissing off people in very high places.
Really? Are you sure? Correct me if I'm wrong though, but with the actual facts, not what you think.
Once a 30 match via hashes is made on your iphone nothing will happen unless you then upload those photos to icloud. Once uploaded those images will again be checked via hashes and if 30 or more matches are present then a human will check the photos to see if they match up.
I'm not stating if this is right or wrong, I just think the details are important and we should be getting them right.
Still is. The things that Apple adds to those open source projects is often not opened source. However with Apple using all these different open source projects, they do get more attention & exposure, some improvements come from Apple, and more because it’s being used by Apple (by others not affiliated w/ Apple). Apple also creates free tools for creating code.
Sales will not drop. If anything, the masses will end up buying more iPhones (not necessarily because of the whole CSAM thing, but just because).
Mankind has shown that its just not smart enough to rid itself of these sorts of things. They are hooked to their smart devices. They are hooked on the internet. They can not live without these things. So what do you do when you're an addict, and the thing you're addicted to is bad for you? Why, you convince yourself that it's either not bad, or you ignore it altogether. And that's exactly what is going to happen here.
The rest of us will just further unplug.
I’m really getting tired of the “if it saves 1” argument. Stomp all over the rights of millions of people to save 1. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want any kids to have to go through that experience, but Apple’s method is only going to catch old, known material while setting a very dangerous precedent by circumventing any possibility or effectiveness of E2E encryption. Think about this, if Apple goes after all the old material, wouldn’t that create more demand for new material? Wouldn’t that, in effect, actually harm more children?
Public cameras are just that, public. They are not inside our homes or looking through what I have.
There are several other methods that Apple could go with that I’d be okay with. Don’t scan my device, don’t scan what I store on iCloud, but scan files on iCloud that are shared with other people is the least objectionable. What they propose wastes a ton of energy, and likely won’t be that effective anyway.
The rest of us will disable iCloud photo sharing, and suffer the consequences of that. I sadly suspect your right that it won’t affect sales. But I hope it will. Apple will never be able to advertise about it’s privacy when scanning goes live.
Again, correct me if I'm wrong (but only with facts if possible), but aren't the images they are scanning for known images from CSAM? So it's not scanning for any photos, It's matching photos against known photos. A little bit of a distinction there I think.
FROM APPLE:
the system performs on-device matching using a database of known CSAM image hashes provided by NCMEC and other child safety organizations. Apple further transforms this database into an unreadable set of hashes that is securely stored on users’ devices.
Before an image is stored in iCloud Photos, an on-device matching process is performed for that image against the known CSAM hashes. This matching process is powered by a cryptographic technology called private set intersection, which determines if there is a match without revealing the result. The device creates a cryptographic safety voucher that encodes the match result along with additional encrypted data about the image. This voucher is uploaded to iCloud Photos along with the image.
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Again, I'm not arguing for or against this system. In fact I'm more against than I am for it. And this was always the outcome. they were always going to postpone it after the initial reaction and concerns from privacy groups. But it will be back in some form because... "Online child exploitation is prevalent on the dark web – with over 25 million images of child abuse being investigated by NCMEC annually."
This is why Apple and the other tech giants won't give up on this.
For me, the damage has already been done... I thought Apple was a champion for The User, and because of that I was happy to overlook the walled-garden and in some cases the lagging behind other companies' products in terms of innovation or feature-set. For any given tech I'm interested in, for the last few years I have either only gotten the Apple version or waited for Apple to launch something, and haven't even really looked at reviews of anything else.
Now Apple has destroyed the illusion that they are working to put me in control and let me safely use my own devices. I guess I should have already known, but before this it was pretty easy to forget.
Funny/difficult to now tell myself that I don't actually need the iPhone 13... I don't need the new Apple Watch... There are other AR/VR things I can get into now instead of waiting... I can look for HomeKit alternatives instead of sinking more dollars into that ecosystem.
Sigh.
Now Apple has destroyed the illusion that they are working to put me in control and let me safely use my own devices. I guess I should have already known, but before this it was pretty easy to forget.
Funny/difficult to now tell myself that I don't actually need the iPhone 13... I don't need the new Apple Watch... There are other AR/VR things I can get into now instead of waiting... I can look for HomeKit alternatives instead of sinking more dollars into that ecosystem.
Sigh.
the “apple is protecting the user” shtick is wearing thin, would rather have more app stores than some theoretical protection from malware, don’t like malware obviously but the app store matters for exactly the reason you cite, it gives us users far more choice and the power that goes with it
Little late to the party on this one today, but I’ll say it again, I’m fine with scanning iCloud and most definitely not against CSAM, but I will not stand for scanning MY ACTUAL DEVICES.
Like many of you, I’ve looked into hardware/software Apple alternatives. Much easier said than done. That said you can still make difference even staying in the Apple ecosystem.
If you feel the same way about the slippery slope that is on device scanning, say so with your wallet and do the following…
Obviously canceling all Apple services affects the money they make and they pay for a lot of infrastructure and development. They also spend a lot on marketing and subsidies. So if for example, your cell phone carrier offers you a free subscription to Apple TV+ or Apple Arcade, do not redeem it.
Apple makes money from Apple Pay when you use the cash option, so obviously don’t do that. That said, Apple spends a lot of money on development and upkeep of this service, so if you don’t use it, it also affects their bottom line. Getting rid of your Apple Card means less money for them, as well as straining their relationship with Goldman Sachs who is the backbone for Apple Card.
Selling Apple stock has a direct affect on the stock price. The more people sell, the lower the price will go. Sure it’s a lil more complicated than that, but it sends a clear message.
Not upgrading to new OS on any Apple device has a similar affect. Apple spends a boatload on development, so if you do not upgrade, that money essentially is going to waste. Furthermore, they use new OS adoption as a marketing tool.
Not buying anything through the app stores directly affects their bottom line. As you probably know, Apple makes a boatload of money in commissions (30%) from these sales. If at all possible buy directly from the developer.
Finally and most important, not buying any new Apple hardware has a ginormous impact! I know some of you need newer hardware, but buy something used instead of new. Apple’s biggest expense is the combination of R&D and production. So it’s pretty obvious, if their sales of new product sales drops by even 20%, it means Apple HAS to pay attention.
Like many of you, I’ve looked into hardware/software Apple alternatives. Much easier said than done. That said you can still make difference even staying in the Apple ecosystem.
If you feel the same way about the slippery slope that is on device scanning, say so with your wallet and do the following…
- Cancel your subscriptions to iCloud and use other cloud services. I personally like Sync.com. It has E2E encryption and there are other options out there.
- Cancel your subscriptions to Apple TV+, iTunes, etc. Plenty of options for media for music and video.
- Do not use Apple Pay and close your Apple Card account if you have one.
- Sell your Apple stock if have them.
- Do not upgrade your OS on any Apple device.
- Do not purchase anything through the Apple app stores.
- Do not buy any new Apple hardware.
Obviously canceling all Apple services affects the money they make and they pay for a lot of infrastructure and development. They also spend a lot on marketing and subsidies. So if for example, your cell phone carrier offers you a free subscription to Apple TV+ or Apple Arcade, do not redeem it.
Apple makes money from Apple Pay when you use the cash option, so obviously don’t do that. That said, Apple spends a lot of money on development and upkeep of this service, so if you don’t use it, it also affects their bottom line. Getting rid of your Apple Card means less money for them, as well as straining their relationship with Goldman Sachs who is the backbone for Apple Card.
Selling Apple stock has a direct affect on the stock price. The more people sell, the lower the price will go. Sure it’s a lil more complicated than that, but it sends a clear message.
Not upgrading to new OS on any Apple device has a similar affect. Apple spends a boatload on development, so if you do not upgrade, that money essentially is going to waste. Furthermore, they use new OS adoption as a marketing tool.
Not buying anything through the app stores directly affects their bottom line. As you probably know, Apple makes a boatload of money in commissions (30%) from these sales. If at all possible buy directly from the developer.
Finally and most important, not buying any new Apple hardware has a ginormous impact! I know some of you need newer hardware, but buy something used instead of new. Apple’s biggest expense is the combination of R&D and production. So it’s pretty obvious, if their sales of new product sales drops by even 20%, it means Apple HAS to pay attention.
This wouldn’t have helped children. The consumers of child porn that we’re caught by this would be so many so many steps removed from the abusers making the content because. The images have to be prolific enough to already be in all of the source databases.
not to mention the fact that apple apparently was going ahead with a plan that allowed pedophiles to upload 29 child porn images without any problem … so, do you do 29 on tuesday and the 29 more on wednesday
like people who move money in amounts of $9950.00, just under the 10K reporting limit
it makes no sense at all in supporting apple’s case that they are serious about stopping the distro of csam
That's your right. So you should do it. Change systems. Just do it and don't look back. Show Apple with your wallet what you feel. I will applaud you for your convictions if you do so. Otherwise it's all just p*ssing and moaning on a rando message board on the internet that will amount to nothing except a bit of venting of your frustrations for a moment.
every single person on this forum and every apple forum … in the world … could do everything you suggest and it would not even create a ripple in the mac user universe, not a ripple
it would be equivalent of farting into the eye of a hurricane, nobody will notice
on the other hand, those of us who are fanboys certainly can make a big stink that likely will get heard by the “normals”
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it certainly looks like you have no idea of the value of "freedom" and how hard it is to get back after you lose them. How many freedoms are you willing to lose for good causes. Are you okay with everyone having to use a breathalyzer every time they start their car because we need to make sure we get all those drunk drivers. Are you okay with your car calling the police on you when you go over the speed limit because speed kills you know. Are you okay with your new TV having a camera looking for drugs in your room because we need to get rid of all those drug addicts. Are you okay a year down the road when Apple expands the CSAM to scan for other illegal activities our government doesn't like because those will be good causes too. Just wondering what your line in the sand is.
Through my taxes, I pay for the police, FBI and various organizations to handle these things and I hope they catch them all. Ford is car company, Sony makes TV's, and Apple is a tech company. All the causes I mentioned above are noble, however, none of these companies jobs are to come up with ways to police me. That will be the day that I buy any product that does these type of things. This from a die hard Apple fanboy owning Macs right down from the original one in 1984. After 3 decades, Apple has destroyed my trust in them in less than a month and I doubt they will ever get it back. Tim better have a great speech next keynote explaining how stupid they were and how they are busy removing this framework from iOs 15. Nothing less will be acceptable.
1. Fair enough. Decent enough solution although quite inelegant and troublesome.
2. That's the easiest one.
3. Isn't Apple Pay one of the big points of using an iphone? Why bother staying with Apple if you're not going to use it?
4. Zero difference made. You'll just hurt yourself in the pocket. Not morally though.
5. Fine for a year or so, but after that it gets troublesome. Again, what's the point. Just change systems.
6. Don't do that now. There really isn't much on there that are needs. Most are wants. Some good productivity apps but really, vast majority of people could get by without buying anything on the App store. People are addicted to it. Shopping is addictive.
7. Why stay in the eco system then? You're gonna have to change.
I don't think your solutions are all that workable. I see the only solution to your untenable situation is to change companies. The above are just too troublesome. People aren't going to do that. The other solution is to get senators or people in power involved to push for change.
You know it doesn't work that way. Once it hits 30 overall it is checked. But I agree, why is there a 30 limit? Quite arbitrary.
Exactly. So I implore everybody who sees this as crossing a line and being absolute about it, to jump ship for your own beliefs and nothing more. Do it for yourself and what you believe in.