Apple Demanded Sales Information on 30,000+ Games From Steam in Ongoing Lawsuit With Epic Games

[CJ Dorschel]

Apple believes that Steam "is the dominant digital game distributor on the PC platform and is a direct competitor to the Epic Game Store," so information about the digital marketplace's sales and operations can show the extent of the market that the Epic Games Store is competing in. Apple argues that Valve should provide this information since it is not available elsewhere, and "does not raise risk of any competitive harm."

Since my last post was deleted on the basis of it being frivolous most likely as I didn’t post a more in-depth comment, here goes:

Using their legal battles with Epic to drag another company into the foray on the basis of context for Apple’s defense seems more of a loophole into another companies business model that would benefit Apple‘s push into the gaming industry. I’m not buying what they’re selling here - you don’t need the business practices of another unrelated company to establish a legal defense. Valve may not be a direct competitor yet that’s splitting hairs - it’s still a successful gaming company whose business strategy and database could benefit Apple’s gaming platform.

Apple is essentially trying to claim Epic‘s suit is frivolous by setting up a defense that its marketshare and profits via Apple’s platform are a smaller amount of their overall profits than the PC market. I’m sure it’s not their only defense but it’s a weak one. Using the lawsuit to gain access into a successful companies business strategies reeks of desperation.

The last sentence seems disingenuous at best.

 

[rafark]

Dude wtf Apple

 

[cmaier]

Since my last post was deleted on the basis of it being frivolous most likely as I didn’t post a more in-depth comment, here goes:

Using their legal battles with Epic to drag another company into the foray on the basis of context for Apple’s defense seems more of a loophole into another companies business model that would benefit Apple‘s push into the gaming industry. I’m not buying what they’re selling here - you don’t need the business practices of another unrelated company to establish a legal defense. Valve may not be a direct competitor yet that’s splitting hairs - it’s still a successful gaming company whose business strategy and database could benefit Apple’s gaming platform.

Apple is essentially trying to claim Epic‘s suit is frivolous by setting up a defense that its marketshare and profits via Apple’s platform are a smaller amount of their overall profits than the PC market. I’m sure it’s not their only defense but it’s a weak one. Using the lawsuit to gain access into a successful companies business strategies reeks of desperation.

The last sentence seems disingenuous at best.
View attachment 1732328

But Apple would not have any access to Valve’s business strategy and database, so what’s the harm, exactly?

 

[farewelwilliams]

Competition is, being able to have multiple stores on a System.

Just like this...

View attachment 1732285

Apple will face it, and fall hardly.

because every customer loves being asked "(game client) needs to restart for updates" multiple times a week.

 

[timber]

I think what Apple is asking for seems a bit much, and my first thought was they wanted that info more for themselves than anything to with the case.

With that said, Epic is 100% competing with Steam, they are constantly giving games away to try to lure people into using the Epic Games launcher. (maybe that stopped but it was something they did for at least 6 months)

Isn't what everybody does? Get the free games on Epic and get the paid games on Steam?

This request from Apple seems like a lot of nerve, something normal people would answer with just one finger.

 

[CJ Dorschel]

But Apple would not have any access to Valve’s business strategy and database, so what’s the harm, exactly?

The article does not state the exact information that would be given to Apple as a judge has to hear this case before ruling then documents need to be sorted based on the judges decision. It‘s a fishing expedition tied to an unrelated legal battle.

The fact that Apple has to make their case by claiming any information provided won’t harm competition as Apple promises not to use it for their own benefit is bad form.

 

[coolfactor]

WOW who they think they are lol

That's a huge privacy issue,

Privacy? No.

But I agree that Apple does not have any right to this information.

 

[coolfactor]

Apple is not the good guy in this lawsuit.

I disagree. I really depends on the issue at hand.

I could not walk into a Walmart, set up a sales kiosk, and start selling my knitted mittens. I'd be operating my business inside of a space built and maintained by another company. I'd be exploiting their marketing efforts to get feet (and wallets) in the door. If Walmart allowed this, I'd be expected to PAY something to be there.

 

[blazerunner]

Apple is not the good guy in this lawsuit.

They never are. They only care about satisfying their shareholders.... NOBODY ELSE.

 

[IG88]

I guess the real argument Apple are making here is that as Steam is the dominant store for games, the focus should be put on them and Valve's monopoly on selling video games.

Steam doesn't lock you into their own hardware in order to use their store.

 

[ruka.snow]

But it's not a monopoly at all since you agree that you can purchase the games elsewhere. Where can I buy games and apps for my iPhone besides the App store?

I can buy PS5 games from a shop and from the PS5 store directly. Where can I buy Xbox games for my PS5?

If you don’t want to buy iPhone games from the AppStore then buy a Android phone and buy the games from Google Play. You will have much less choice on Google Play, but it is a choice that you can buy a different pocket console. Or you can push developers to make their games web apps and with just a few taps that game is on your Home Screen but all the revenue is directly going to the developer.

 

[ruka.snow]

Steam doesn't lock you into their own hardware in order to use their store.

Because that isn’t their business model. Steam aren’t trying to be a PlayStation competitor.

 

[cmaier]

The article does not state the exact information that would be given to Apple as a judge has to hear this case before ruling then documents need to be sorted based on the judges decision. It‘s a fishing expedition tied to an unrelated legal battle.

The fact that Apple has to make their case by claiming any information provided won’t harm competition as Apple promises not to use it for their own benefit is bad form.

You seem to be misunderstanding how this works. If valve complies with the subpoena, none of the information that valve considers sensitive would be shown to anyone who works at apple. It would only be seen by the outside law firm that Apple is using for the lawsuit.

What's bad form is making unfounded allegations about Apple's motivations based on one's complete misunderstanding of how discovery works in federal lawsuits.

 

[Scipster]

But Apple would not have any access to Valve’s business strategy and database, so what’s the harm, exactly?

It seems Valve is more worried about Epic's lawyers obtaining this information, even with a protective order:

"Valve does not disclose its sales and revenue information and projections, and Valve derives a significant value and edge from the confidentiality of such information, including by keeping it out of the hands of companies like Epic who also sell PC games. Accordingly, Valve redacted such information from its Volume 5 production and declined to produce it in response to Apple’s demands."

If Valve has to produce the information for Apple's lawyers, does that mean Epic's lawyers get equal access to it? I could see the Court assuaging Valve's concerns if it also rules that Epic's lawyers are not allowed to see the information, but is that legal?

They're also worried about cost and burden of producing information that is not readily available, and claim Apple can find the information by piecing together publicly available data if they wanted to. Is it reasonable for the party to compensate the non-party for discovery if the cost is significant and imposes an undue burden? Especially when the party can find the information themselves?

"Apple was not satisfied and demands—without offering to cover Valve’s costs, which would be significant—that Valve (i) recreate six years’ worth of PC game and item sales for hundreds of third party video games, then (ii) produce a massive amount of confidential information about these games and Valve’s revenues. Valve objected... Identifying all versions and items on Steam since 2015 for all 436 games on Apple’s list would require Valve to review and query years of sales listing data. Apple could use public information on Steam to complete this task itself, but wants Valve to do it;"

Discovery Letter Brief – #346 in Epic Games, Inc. v. Apple Inc. (N.D. Cal., 4:20-cv-05640-YGR) – CourtListener.com

Discovery Letter Brief

www.courtlistener.com

 

[Ethosik]

Simply because BurgerKing is a store, just like McDonalds, the AppStore, Epic Store, Steam.
See this more like hmm McDonalds Store not wanting a BurgerKing Store on the same street or region, and the BicMac is Fortnite. If Apple don't want Fortnite in their store, it's totally okay, but then they must accept different stores.

Well, Apple is using public resources(aka. citizens) to build up their imperium, and interlocking business types to naturally force out the competition. These citizens belongs to a country, if Apple wants to keep using these available resources(citizens), they will have to obey and accept the laws of different countries around the world e.g. EU,USA,RU,CN, etc.

It's their free choice to stop selling software and hardware in these countries, but they would have to find a solution for already sold software/hardware anyway, else the next lawsuit would knock on their door.

And that's what I also call a healthy competition:
View attachment 1732305

No what Epic is essentially wanting is a Burger King INSIDE a McDonalds. They want the Epic Games Store downloadable from the iOS App Store. Why should McDonalds be forced to provide advertisements for Burger King?

There is no "iOS" street. You cannot make the market so narrow it fits in any argument possible. Android exists on the "Mobile" street from your example. Just like if Target, for whatever reason, does not want to sell my product, I would physically need to LEAVE their store, and (in my area) drive 10 miles to Wal-Mart and see if they can sell the product. Why can't we just leave the iOS and Android alone like this? Leave the iOS environment, and move to Android.

 

[Ethosik]

Steam doesn't have a monopoly on game distribution on windows.

iOS doesn't have a monopoly on "Mobile Apps". There is Android. Again, people are making the market way too narrow. It would be just as ridiculous for me to say "Microsoft has a monopoly on Xbox Games Distributions". No the market is "Console Games" not as narrow as "Xbox Games". Even physical media, I need to pay Microsoft a fee. I don't want to. I would absolutely LOVE to create an Xbox game and just release it on my website, but I can't do that.

 

[Ethosik]

 

[q64ceo]

**** Apple on this

I remember when Psystar demanded sales data from Apple about their customers after Apple sued them for making unauthorized clones. Judge back then told Psystar to go pound sand. Steam has nothing to do with any of this so I hope that a judge does the same.

 

[goborgh]

But Apple would not have any access to Valve’s business strategy and database, so what’s the harm, exactly?

I suppose monetary, on something they didn't cause and came out of the blue. Those documents request are not being generated on their own, and there's going to be a lot of man hours involved in producing them. All of a sudden they got T-boned with the bill.

 

[goborgh]

Also, I might add that Apple is being rumored to get in the VR ecosystem, guess who's also in the VR space? Steam. I suppose they cannot bully Facebook for Oculus sales data, but they can with Steam.

 

[cmaier]

I suppose monetary, on something they didn't cause and came out of the blue. Those documents request are not being generated on their own, and there's going to be a lot of man hours involved in producing them. All of a sudden they got T-boned with the bill.

True - there is a cost involved in producing the discovery. Unfortunately, that’s just part of the system. And it‘s not completely unusual for the party seeking the discovery to contribute monetarily to assist the third party in the collection of the data, particularly if the costs would be unduly burdensome.

 

[Chips Stephens]

This only serves to raise prices both Apple and steam..
because adults have failed to act that way and find common ground and work things out, instead got the lowest form of life,” lawyer “ to throw mud on the wall to see what sticks.
Who in the end gets the shaft?
We do, the consumer....

 

[5H3PH3RD]

This is by far the lamest reply that comes up. The idea that this is in any way equivalent to app stores is just insane. It would be like if that Costco membership cost the same as an iphone and you had to have a separate membership to every store you shopped at. Most people have only one phone and therefore only one app store and that one store has no competition. Do you really call it competition because someone can spend another $800-$1200 on another phone to save a couple of dollars on an app because to me that logic is insane.

I only have one car too and one TV.

 

[ksec]

I'm with Valve on this one... they're not even competing in the same markets.
Apple's subpoena should be tossed as irrelevant.

I'm sure Apple would love to have all that proprietary data.

How did they even "dare" to ask for that in the first place is completely beyond me.

 

[Gasu E.]

I guess Epic just randomly through the claim about STEAM out there with no substantiation, just innuendo. Shouldn't they have to substantiate or withdraw stuff like that?

Where do you get this from? It's not in the MacRumors article or in the original source to which it links?