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I actually don't think it's as loose as one might think. If I hear Open Source, I am thinking the original code is available for any and everyone. When I hear open platform, I think the source code is locked, but any and everyone can apply add ons and enhancements.

That doesn't make much sense, an open platform would then become not open if it was open sourced. And further, how can any and everyone apply add ons and enhancements if the source is closed?

I think we can agree on that in an extreme case, in a completely open platform all aspects of it is open including source code, and at the other end is a completely closed in platform where everything is locked down and controlled. With these two extremes in mind, I think we can place a platform on a scale to see where it fits between these extremes, that is, what degree of openness does it have.

Windows certainly isn't open source, but it is a very open platform.

What makes you say that? And more importantly what do you mean by that.

For example the comparisson between Windows and OS X is IMO laughable. For example OS X has a fully compliant POSIX interface and is UNIX certified, if this does not aid in inter operability I don't know what will, the entire subsystem to OS X is open source in Darwin, you could even compile and install an alternative kernel, is that possible on Windows?


The sources at the bottom of the page give much more clarification, open source and open platform are definitely two different things.

First, I don't know why you say that. The page start out by saying that there is no references or sources available as I pointed out earlier.

And I'm not saying that they are the same! But having the source open is an aspect of openness, it's something that contributes to that assessment.

When looking at open platforms, the evidence of their success rests with Microsoft Windows and Google's Android.

I think you confuse a business model, to only sell the operating system and leaving hardware to OEMs with openness. It made some sense to do so with Microsoft when you could build your own PC from parts, with phones it's a different matter.
 
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That doesn't make much sense, an open platform would then become not open if it was open sourced. And further, how can any and everyone apply add ons and enhancements if the source is closed?

I still think you're getting the two confused and yes, if you bring up Ubuntu when someone talks about open platform you're definitely alluding to them being the same. The links at the bottom of the page are sourced, and reference the two differences between what an open platform is (which Apple's iOS wasn't until it made the API available for devs) and open source.

I am only mentioning that there's a difference between what Winni said, which was open platform, and the comment you made. Specifically mentioning that open platform's success isn't certain, yet mentioning open sourced software.

Two different things.
 
I still think you're getting the two confused and yes, if you bring up Ubuntu when someone talks about open platform you're definitely alluding to them being the same.

I'm not, a platform can be open and open source no. In this case, the point is that with ubuntu there is no ties to Google's separate interests and for Firefox OS it's the fact that Mozilla is a non profit organization.


The links at the bottom of the page are sourced, and reference the two differences between what an open platform is (which Apple's iOS wasn't until it made the API available for devs) and open source.

I am only mentioning that there's a difference between what Winni said, which was open platform, and the comment you made. Specifically mentioning that open platform's success isn't certain, yet mentioning open sourced software.

Two different things.

A am very aware that they are different things, but they are related, it's for example hard to argue that an open sourced platform is a closed platform.
 
I'm not, a platform can be open and open source no. In this case, the point is that with ubuntu there is no ties to Google's separate interests and for Firefox OS it's the fact that Mozilla is a non profit organization.

A am very aware that they are different things, but they are related, it's for example hard to argue that an open sourced platform is a closed platform.

Yes! Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Here's what Winni said:

Anyway, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. Apple had its moment of glory, but as always, the open platforms succeed over the closed platforms.

Then you replied:

Always? Well that is nonsense. But we will have to see how Ubuntu for phones and Firefox OS fares I guess.

In fact, do you have any example of this being the case historically?

Ubuntu for phones and Firefox OS's (open sourced software) success has nothing to do with Winni's comment (open platform winning out every time).

His comment makes perfect sense, hence the reason Apple produced an API for iOS . . . . making it closed source and open platform much like a lot of operating systems are.

Keeping all of that in mind, one cannot say that open platforms are no successful when just about everything IS in fact an open platform . . . . at the same I'd see your point if you mentioned that "open platform" is a model that Apple has embraced just not to the extent as Android.
 
Ubuntu for phones and Firefox OS's (open sourced software) success has nothing to do with Winni's comment (open platform winning out every time).

It has, the fact that they are open source is coincidental, they are also very much open platforms, more so than Android. Here's why, there is no separate interests beyond the OS itself involved.

His comment makes perfect sense, hence the reason Apple produced an API for iOS . . . . making it closed source and open platform much like a lot of operating systems are.

His comment refers to the fact that the OS is made available separately from the hardware, this opens up for many different OEMs to make hardware. This certainly means that it has potential to grow, but it doesn't in itself mean that the platform is open.

Keeping all of that in mind, one cannot say that open platforms are no successful when just about everything IS in fact an open platform . . . . at the same I'd see your point if you mentioned that "open platform" is a model that Apple has embraced just not to the extent as Android.

Of course, you start out by defining open platforms as "just about everything", then proclaim their success.
 
Eliminate IP protection and no one has a reason to create anything. Because they would put it out in the world only to have to ripped off left and right.
Except when there was no discernible IP protection, people did. I give you the wheel, the cart, the hammer and the axe, by no means an exhaustive list of developed technologies that had no more protection than breathing.

There is quite an extensive list of technologies that were developed because there was a problem to solve. The closest to protection you had to IP protection was your ruling/military classes bulling other manufacturers into shutting down operations. Most of the technologies we have in our hands today is a rehashing of the unprotected technologies. Clever, I've no doubt, and imo worthy of some reimbursement for efforts. It is just the claim that people won't create without IP protection that bugs me. As far as I can tell, creativity is accelerated under lack of protection not because stifled because of its lack.
 
It has, the fact that they are open source is coincidental, they are also very much open platforms, more so than Android. Here's why, there is no separate interests beyond the OS itself involved.

His comment refers to the fact that the OS is made available separately from the hardware, this opens up for many different OEMs to make hardware. This certainly means that it has potential to grow, but it doesn't in itself mean that the platform is open.

Of course, you start out by defining open platforms as "just about everything", then proclaim their success.

It seems you really pulled more than you should've from a simple comment. No where does anyone say anything about OEMs and Android being open source.
 
It seems you really pulled more than you should've from a simple comment. No where does anyone say anything about OEMs and Android being open source.

?
You are the one who brought up open source in comment #232, since then it's been a debate about definitions.
 
?
You are the one who brought up open source in comment #232, since then it's been a debate about definitions.

Yeah, he brought it up because you were having trouble telling an apple from an aardvark. When he brought up open platforms, you brought up Ubuntu for phones and Firefox OS, as if you were confusing the two.

Here's how it goes:

An open platform means anyone can make a program for it, and distribute it themselves to anyone who wants it. There's no entity controlling what programs can or cannot be installed.

Windows, OSX, and Android are open platforms.

An example of closed sourced platforms would be iOS or consoles, since the owners of said platforms vet all the applications and have strict guidelines as to what kind of apps a developer can create for it.

Open Source means the source code for a program or OS is readily available for anyone to use, tinker with, or compile.

Ubuntu would be an open source, open platform, as anyone can download, use, or fork the core components that make up the OS. Or if they don't want to do that, they can use it just like Windows and OSX, installing anything they want to since Canonical doesn't have any say on what you can put on there.

Windows and OSX are closed source (well, OSX halfway so), because you can't hop on the internet and download the source code for it to do as you wish. They're Closed Source Open Platforms.

Now do you see? The whole issue with open source doesn't even figure into what he said. You brought it up, he tried to clarify.
 
There are Open Platform. As in anyone can make a program for it, and distribute it themselves to anyone who wants it. There's no entity controlling what programs can or cannot be installed.

Windows, OSX, and Android are open platforms.

An example of closed sourced platforms would be iOS or consoles, since the owners of said platforms vet all the applications and have strict guidelines as to what kind of apps a developer can create for it.

Open Source means the source code for a program or OS is readily available for anyone to use, tinker with, or compile.

Ubuntu would be an open source, open platform, as anyone can download, use, or fork the core components that make up the OS. Or if they don't want to do that, they can use it just like Windows and OSX, installing anything they want to since Canonical doesn't have any say on what you can put on there.

Now do you see?

Where do I disagree with any of this?


The whole issue with open source doesn't even figure into what he said. You brought it up, he tried to clarify.

I did not, he brought it up, convinced that was what I referred to.

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/17305056/
 
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I did not, he brought it up, convinced that was what I referred to.

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/17305056/

Right here...

Winni said:
Anyway, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. Apple had its moment of glory, but as always, the open platforms succeed over the closed platforms.

Always? Well that is nonsense. But we will have to see how Ubuntu for phones and Firefox OS fares I guess.

In fact, do you have any example of this being the case historically?

While you didn't say open source specifically (spelling it out for you in big block letters so don't try to squirm your way out on a technicality), your assumption that an open platform referred to these two open source OSes in particular rather than OSX, Windows, et al. is what started off the whole conversation.
 
While you didn't say open source specifically (spelling it out for you in big block letters so don't try to squirm your way out on a technicality), your assumption that an open platform referred to these two open source OSes in particular rather than OSX, Windows, et al. is what started off the whole conversation.

Exactly that assumption is what lead to this whole debate. Listen I am very aware that both these platforms are open source, but that is not what I am referring to.

Both of them are free from any interests, ties to services, revenue stream, or vendor lock in. In Mozilla's case it's right in their mission statement to aid in the support of open standards. The fact that they are open source is the sugar on top, but it also contribute to them being open platforms obviously.
 
And that has little in why are open platforms.

Let's agree to disagree, because all we have now is a ****** wikipedia article that has served as a crutch all along. Assume that my data is tied up in a cloud and associated with g+ accounts for example, if the vendor decide to make it hard to interoperate with other services, invent new standards, or simply change their mind that can and will affect a platforms openness. Google's platform goes beyond Android, they are building it right on top of the open web.

At least with my examples Firefox OS etc, it is clear from the onset that there is no such ties and never will be.
 
Let's agree to disagree, because all we have now is a ****** wikipedia article that has served as a crutch all along. Assume that my data is tied up in a cloud and associated with g+ accounts for example, if the vendor decide to make it hard to interoperate with other services, invent new standards, or simply change their mind that can and will affect a platforms openness. Google's platform goes beyond Android, they are building it right on top of the open web.

At least with my examples Firefox OS etc, it is clear from the onset that there is no such ties and never will be.

You're confusing Android with Google services.
 
You're confusing Android with Google services.

I'm not, Android isn't a Google pet project, it's part of their greater goal, it's a means to an end serving their business and building the platform at large. Their platform is not just Android in isolation.

Anyway, I admit to playing the devils advocate a bit here, taking the notion of open platform to the extreme. If you look what spurred this though, the idea that open platforms always succeeds, I very much think that is not the case. Specifically in the case of Windows but also Android, where adoption is more a result of making it available to 3rd party OEMs than it being open, for arguments sake you can imagine a completely closed platform being licensed to OEMs.
 
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I'm not, Android isn't a Google pet project, it's part of their greater goal, it's a means to an end serving their business and building the platform at large. Their platform is not just Android in isolation.

Android is Android. And Google services are Google services and they are different. Android is an open platform, period.
 
Let me guess... people will now pretend the following three obvious falsehoods:

1. That the title of the patent is the entire patent... that the patent contains no specifics beyond that one phrase.

2. That nobody sues Apple. Apple only sues others.

3. That Apple truly has the option not to play the patent game that its competitors are playing.

Actually look at the substance of those patents rather than clumsily bike-shedding about patent law? No!
 
I'm amazed to find somebody that still subscribes to this point of view, talk of flogging a dead horse. Samsung have been innovating for the entire 2-3 years these lawsuits have been running. Hence their dominant position in the smartphone market.

Innovating? How do we measure that? With the number of patents filed?

And truth be told, Samsung is dominant right now because they have the best relationships with the north american telecoms, they give the biggest 'spiffs' to salespeople (in fact with many carriers Apple doesn't spiff at all), and they're outspending everyone by at least a factor of 2x on marketing and advertising. It's amazing that Apple keeps up with them at all.

As for the actual phones, the Galaxy phones are made with cheap-feeling plastic and have a badly-implemented Apple-aping UI (who knows why they would want to copy *that* particular bit of iOS). And they have a reputation for atrocious reliability with the support people in the telecoms - at least when compared to HTC and Apple - the SGS2 and the Galaxy Nexus in particular.
 
The patent descriptions sound so vague. I'm not saying that Samsung is the white-hat in this, but there has to be a line when it comes to technology. Patenting "auto complete" and suing because of it is just a jerk thing to do.

Speaking of jerk things to do, you're on the front page and you've ilsted some of the patents, so I'm going to pick on you. But I won't be mean. Promise. :)

So they patented:

universal interface for retrieval of information in a computer system
Looking up information on a computer system. Really? I'm pretty sure all computers do that. Even old less-smart phones had a search to get contacts and such. It just wasn't one-textbox to search everything-at-once. BUT... computers and PIM's have been doing that for years.

Keep in mind that there's no rule that the title of a patent accurately and completely reflect the contents of the patent.

Anyways, I read through the patent. The basics are that Apple, in 2001, patented a meta-search system utilizing plug-ins. My guess is that this was from Sherlock. The idea is that you describe what you're searching for (could be as simple as a text search box), and then the system hands the query to multiple pluggable search agents. Its not a bad patent for 2001, and it's been referenced by a lot of other patents, issued to IBM, Microsoft, and others. I don't know what particular aspect of the S4 Apple thinks they can go after with this - S-Voice perhaps?

graphical user interface using historical lists with field classes
Auto-complete showing historic entries. Really? Every browser since 1995 does that. Heck even some old less-smart phones did that.

That's mostly what this patent is. I was reading through it, and at first I was thinking, "Hey - this is probably the OS9 keychain!", but it looks like this work mostly came out of the Newton. It's actually a bit more subtle than a simple history list, though. The patent makes a big deal about how input fields are set up into 'classes' and can therefore be shared between applications. That's why I immediately thought of the keychain. Anyhoo, you type something into a field in one application, and then you can use it again in a field with the same 'class' in another application.

Incidentally, this patent was filed in 1995, and auto-complete didn't come to browsers until 1997 with Netscape 4. And that was just the URL bar - not form fields. In fact, Microsoft later (in 1999) filed a patent, US6651217 B1, called "System and method for populating forms with previously used data values" which patents form auto-fill and references this patent.

It makes you realize just how much forward-thinking went into the Newton.

asynchronous data synchronization amongst devices
Your device syncs up with other similar devices via a cloud or something. Not really innovation.

I read the patent and it describes a synchronization protocol for locking shared resources, dividing resources into classes, and synchronizing between multiple devices. I thought of CoreData when I saw this, but most likely its MobileMe/iCloud. One of the other key characteristics of this is that the clients are databases in and of themselves - local changes are meant to be propagated back to centralized databases and to other devices. In particular, I think this is what would distinguish it from a simple database with a bunch of distributed views.

I'm not sure what to make of this. I think it's fair to say that Apple now has a patent on a very particular synchronization protocol, but how generally could this be applied? And what prior art could be used against this? The patent was filed fairly recently (2007). Would ActiveSync/Exchange be prior art? Not really, because communications between the server and the client in the activesync protocol is more asymmetrical - this patent describes a system where new data could be generated anywhere in a distributed synchronization network and then be propagated. Also, the patent makes a big deal about data 'classes' - it generalizes the concept of synchronizing data with pluggable data class handlers, which definitely isn't in ActiveSync.

Fair enough, but what part of the S4 could possibly violate this patent?

System and method for performing an action on a structure in computer-generated data
This is the only one I can't tell what they're saying. From a larger description it sounds like passing data-structure to a server, using that structured data to do something, and return it. That sounds like old-hat stuff as well, but I could be reading it incorrectly.

This is interesting. To me, this sounds like the way iOS/OSX can embed hotlinks in your document when it detects that there's a phone number or an address in the text of the document. It describes a system where you hand a document or some other displayable data off to a widget or something and the widget sends it to an analyzer which finds stuff like phone numbers and addresses and then associates them with handlers (i.e. open up the phone app and dial the number or open the calendar app and create an event).

Ok - no big deal, right? Android-does-this-Winmo-does-this-lots-of-prior-art-and-apple-sucks-and-why-dont-they-just-stop-suing-everyone-and-lets-abolish-patents. But look at the filing date for this one - 1996! My guess is that again this comes from the Newton. I can't think of any software I was using back in 1996 that would do on-the-fly text analysis and insert actions into the document view. Even COM/OLE was still young back in 1996. It also appears to be a very foundational patent - tons of patents reference this one.

----------

I read somewhere that there is a world outside USA but perhaps I can be wrong.

Salesmen all over the world get spiffs for selling Galaxy phones.
 
While you didn't say open source specifically (spelling it out for you in big block letters so don't try to squirm your way out on a technicality), your assumption that an open platform referred to these two open source OSes in particular rather than OSX, Windows, et al. is what started off the whole conversation.

We've gotten so OFF topic with this. But yes, you are saying it much better than I seem to be.

Seriously, I DO have a problem with punching my thoughts onto the screen.

The only clarification I tried to give was that support for the success of open platforms was all around us, and saying that the success is dependent on two mobile OSes not yet at market wasn't needed.

Mocking Wikipedia is also moot. I am no researcher, but I usually read the comments, then check the sources at the bottom and read them. I see that some still just take what folks say at face value.

Salesmen all over the world get spiffs for selling Galaxy phones.

I don't understand why that's a problem. I would've LOVED to get 5% commission on selling all of those *$$)#*$#) iPhones and Macs when I worked for Apple Retail. But then I would've brought home a $9,000 check ever month.

Yes, the only reason non Apple smartphones are sold is because salesmen get spiffs

Of course, because anyone with an Android was obviously conned into buying one, everyone where in the world . . . . people are being conned into buying $650 Android handsets.
 
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