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That's got NOTHING to do with Antitrust!

From what I can understand, You seem like you had no idea how patent system works, yet started to criticise me. I on the other hand, already filed 5 patents. I have an USPTO account, WIPO account and familiar with the patent system. I wrote my patent application and all the patent claims you see in my patent application. While that doesn't mean I'm an expert, it does says I have the "basic" knowledge. You on the other hand, had to rely on @cmaier to even understand what is a PCT application.

You are doing it again here. This is what I wrote about "AntiTrust" 5 months back. I don't just write things without doing my research. This is how "Department of Justice" responded to my report. See the words "further review"? That's because my report had enough merits. So I believe, I know the "basics" of AntiTrust.

Here is why it would become an AntiTrust case. "Sign in with Apple" removal affects the consumers (both individuals and businesses). And they are the one who is forcing developers to support their button.

I would to know about your view on why you think "That's got NOTHING to do with Antitrust!".
Maybe you really know things and I underestimated you.
 
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1) You had no idea how patent system works, yet started to criticise me. I on the other hand, already filed 5 patents. I have an USPTO account, WIPO account and familiar with the patent system. I wrote my patent application and all the patent claims you see in my patent application. While that doesn't mean I'm an expert, it does says I have the "basic" knowledge. You on the other hand, had to rely on @cmaier to even understand what is a PCT application.

2) You had no idea about the "Sign in with Apple" system. Yet tried to convince me that it is an OpenID implementation. My invention covers "openid". If Apple say that their system is "openid" implementation in their "Sign in with Apple" documentation, they will be most likely lose the patent case in court since their words will be used against them.

3) You are doing it again here. This is what I wrote about "AntiTrust" 5 months back. I don't just write things without doing my research. This is how "Department of Justice" responded to my report. See the words "further review"? That's because my report had enough merits. So I believe, I know the "basics" of AntiTrust.

Here is why it would become an AntiTrust case. "Sign in with Apple" removal affects the consumers (both individuals and businesses). And they are the one who is forcing developers to support their button.

I would to know about your view on why you think "That's got NOTHING to do with Antitrust!".
Maybe you really know things and I underestimated you.

OMG!

You have the same GENERIC FORM response that anyone gets from any government review.

I could contact them and say anything and get the same response. There's NOTHING in the reply that even begins to show that they even read your communication.

You are reading way way way too much into this response.

And, as was pointed out, apparently your patent application was denied. I've asked several times for proof of a real filing and you've failed each and every time to show one.

And OpenId has been around since 2005! Unless you can show a patent filed befire then you'll fail due to "prior art".

Sure, I saught others help - I never claimed to be an expert but I know enough to be dangerous. And I apparently know more than you given you think that sonething from 2019 can defeat a technology from 2005...

And apparently you didn't write much about Antitrust as opposed to quote articles, which anyone can do.
 
As @TiggrToo mentioned, my invention is related to email. I'm an SMTP engineer. I try to improve email communication.

I sometimes participate in the IETF discussions.



In 2018, I came up with a new mail system called "Dombox", which addresses email spam problem without relying on spam filters. This is the address structure of Dombox.

I published my research in a 300 page white paper in Feb 2019. ["Sign in with Dombox" is termed as "Teleport" in that paper. You can see that in page 115]

My "dombox addresses" relies on a new DNS record called "SAD Record" to prevent spam and offer privacy. My white paper explained everything clearly. I even made certain terms and conditions for those email addresses. For example, if the SPF verification is not "Pass", then the incoming mail will be rejected. There is more to it. Let's not go there.

The point I'm trying to make is, I innovated in the "email" field. More specifically "email address" field. I built few tools to make this "dombox address" creation easier. "Sign in with Dombox" is one of them.

Apple desperately needs my "Sender Alias Domains (SAD)" solution to make "Sign in with Apple" work. They are trying to clone my "SAD Record" using the "domain policy list" part found in this prior art. Their argument would work only when Fortnite app is found in the "App Store" since this "domain policy list" is provided for preventing "fake fortnite apps".

Once Apple kick out developers from the App Store, Apple is literally killing their business. Because, (a) Developers cannot use "Sign in with Apple" in other platforms without having an app in the "App Store". (b) Apple cannot accept emails to the "Sign in with Apple" generated email address if developers don't have an app in the "App Store".

You probably noticed Apple is offering an "indefinite extension" to Fortnite.
That didn't happen magically. I notified Epic Games CEO about what's going on between Apple and me. Epic Games CEO acknowledged. https://www.dropbox.com/s/z0b3ifcgren3s8i/Screenshot_2020-09-10-05-17-21-15.png?dl=0

I then notified Apple saying Epic Games knows about the patent issue. I also showed them the last screenshot. Within 24 hours I started to see the news that Apple is offering "indefinite extension" to Fortnite. I also started to see "amended" App Store guidelines which says "Game streaming services will be allowed"


Since Apple forced "Sign in with Apple" and banned Fortnite, this is probably gonna be an antitrust lawsuit. Something tells me Apple gonna settle things with Epic Games and bring them back to App Store to make "Sign in with Apple" work for them. That's why they are amending their App Store guidelines.

"However each game needs its own App Store listing, and have basic functionality after a download."

This is the reason Apple is giving to developers.
That "among other things" actually refers to the patent issue between Apple and me.

That is a long wall of text.

Here's what I don't understand. You aren't saying apple is using your invention, correct? You are just saying they *should*, correct?

And if so, why would anything you say have any effect on what Apple chose to do with regard to the extension? After all, *on the same day* that Epic announced that Fortnite would lose sign in with apple, apple said that would not be the case. Later they officially announced the "indefinite extension," but that was following massive media coverage.

Second, you said:

Once Apple kick out developers from the App Store, Apple is literally killing their business. Because, (a) Developers cannot use "Sign in with Apple" in other platforms without having an app in the "App Store". (b) Apple cannot accept emails to the "Sign in with Apple" generated email address if developers don't have an app in the "App Store".

Several things I don't understand with this theory.

First, Apple's business is not Sign In With Apple. So what business are you referring to?

As to your point (a), why would apple *WANT* anyone to use Sign In With Apple if they don't have an app on the app store? How does that help Apple? Apple is in the business of selling devices and getting a cut of app store transactions. If developers say "i won't support sign in with apple because I am only on android and windows" or whatever, why would Apple care?
 
My last comment shows the acknowledgement email I received from Epic Games CEO. Apple made a U-Turn after I told Apple that Epic Games knows about "Sign in with Apple" patent issue.

The u-turn also came after I pooped that day. My poop is just as likely relevant.

Again, on the same day that Epic made the analysis, there were stories saying that Apple disputed Epic's announcement.
 
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OMG!

You have the same GENERIC FORM response that anyone gets from any government review.

I could contact them and say anything and get the same response. There's NOTHING in the reply that even begins to show that they even read your communication.

You are reading way way way too much into this response.

I got responses from other government officials too. That's why I emphasised the "further review" part. If everyone gets the same response, then yes my understanding is incorrect.

And, as was pointed out, apparently your patent application was denied. I've asked several times for proof of a real filing and you've failed each and every time to show one.

And OpenId has been around since 2005! Unless you can show a patent filed befire then you'll fail due to "prior art".

Sure, I saught others help - I never claimed to be an expert but I know enough to be dangerous. And I apparently know more than you given you think that sonething from 2019 can defeat a technology from 2005...

And apparently you didn't write much about Antitrust as opposed to quote articles, which anyone can do.
I think you still don't understand how patent system works. Also you didn't seem like you have gone through my blog post which I linked earlier. Let me copy and paste here for your convenience.

Patentability mainly focuses on two things. Novelty and Non-Obviousness. In some countries, the latter part is called as "Inventive Step".

Novelty - The "Novelty" principle asks whether the invention was known to the public "exactly as described" before the filing date of the patent application. Novelty is straightforward. You either invented something or you don't.

Non-Obviousness - The "Non-Obviousness" principle asks whether the invention is an adequate distance beyond what's already known to the public.

Determining "Non-Obviousness" is extremely hard. So courts sometimes have to rely on secondary considerations for determining non-obviousness. To quote Federal Circuit which is known for its decisions on patent law, "evidence of secondary considerations may often be the most probative and cogent evidence in the record".

So "non-obviousness" deals with questions like (1) Is the invention commercially successful? (2) Did others fail before? (3) Are people praising the invention, especially competitors? (4) Did the invention recognize a problem that has never been recognized before? (5) Are competitors trying to copy the invention? etc.

Prior Art - One way or another, all form of invention rely on already known ideas. For example, my "Teleport" button [or "Sign in with Apple" button if you prefer], is an improvement over buttons like "Sign in with Google" and "Sign in with Facebook".

If your invention do not have any prior art, that means you either ahead of its time (e.g. Someone invented an iPhone in the 18th century) OR you are not working on a notable problem i.e. If the problem is notable, then others tried to solve it and failed.

Any publicly available evidence which is close to the invention is called as "Prior Art". In my invention's case, it is WO2014105263A1. Apple copied my work with the help of that document. So from this point forward, the term "Prior Art" refers to WO2014105263A1.

Provisional Rights - "Provisional rights" allow a patent owner to collect damages from the infringers for activities occurring between "the date of the patent application publication" and "the patent granting date".

Patent - A patent is a government license that exclude others from making, using, or selling the invention without the inventor's permission for a limited period of time. This period is usually 20 years. Patent system's main purpose is to encourage innovation. A patented cancer cure is better than not having a cure at all.

Patent Infringement - Patent infringement occurs once the patent get granted. Patent laws are country-specific. Under US law, 35 U.S. Code § 271 states the following:

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.

(b) Whoever actively induces infringement of a patent shall be liable as an infringer.

Direct Infringement - It occurs when the main party makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells the invention without the inventor's permission.

The term "main party" depends on the claim language. From the Apple perspective "Sign in with Apple" is a product. From the Developer perspective "Sign in with Apple" is a "medium" for sending mails. The "main party or parties" doesn't need to know that a patent exists in order to be held liable.

Indirect Infringement - Secondary liability, or indirect infringement, arises when a party materially contributes to, facilitates, induces, or is otherwise responsible for infringing acts carried out by the main party.

Induced Infringement - A form of Indirect Infringement where the party "cause, urge, encourage, or aid" the infringing acts carried out by the main party.

As @cmaier points out my invention lacks "Non-Obviousness" according to Indian patent office. But my PCT application is an omnibus application. Meaning, a single application contains multiple inventions.

Ofcourse I know about openid. In patent law "elements" matter. Apple is trying to "circumvent" my invention. Apple ditched "OAuth" because my patent specification covers that. My patent specification also covers "openid". That's why they cannot go for "openid"

I'm not saying I invented "openid". My invention contains the element "openid". So while narrowing the claim, I can use that element to make my invention "non-obvious".

And apparently you didn't write much about Antitrust as opposed to quote articles, which anyone can do.

Yes I was trying to show that I have the "basic" knowledge.
 
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I got responses from other government officials too. That's why I emphasised the "further review" part. If everyone gets the same response, then yes my understanding is incorrect.


I think you still don't understand how patent system works. Also you didn't seem like you have gone through my blog post which I linked earlier. Let me copy and paste here for your convenience.

Patentability mainly focuses on two things. Novelty and Non-Obviousness. In some countries, the latter part is called as "Inventive Step".

Novelty - The "Novelty" principle asks whether the invention was known to the public "exactly as described" before the filing date of the patent application. Novelty is straightforward. You either invented something or you don't.

Non-Obviousness - The "Non-Obviousness" principle asks whether the invention is an adequate distance beyond what's already known to the public.

Determining "Non-Obviousness" is extremely hard. So courts sometimes have to rely on secondary considerations for determining non-obviousness. To quote Federal Circuit which is known for its decisions on patent law, "evidence of secondary considerations may often be the most probative and cogent evidence in the record".

So "non-obviousness" deals with questions like (1) Is the invention commercially successful? (2) Did others fail before? (3) Are people praising the invention, especially competitors? (4) Did the invention recognize a problem that has never been recognized before? (5) Are competitors trying to copy the invention? etc.

Prior Art - One way or another, all form of invention rely on already known ideas. For example, my "Teleport" button [or "Sign in with Apple" button if you prefer], is an improvement over buttons like "Sign in with Google" and "Sign in with Facebook".

If your invention do not have any prior art, that means you either ahead of its time (e.g. Someone invented an iPhone in the 18th century) OR you are not working on a notable problem i.e. If the problem is notable, then others tried to solve it and failed.

Any publicly available evidence which is close to the invention is called as "Prior Art". In my invention's case, it is WO2014105263A1. Apple copied my work with the help of that document. So from this point forward, the term "Prior Art" refers to WO2014105263A1.

Provisional Rights - "Provisional rights" allow a patent owner to collect damages from the infringers for activities occurring between "the date of the patent application publication" and "the patent granting date".

Patent - A patent is a government license that exclude others from making, using, or selling the invention without the inventor's permission for a limited period of time. This period is usually 20 years. Patent system's main purpose is to encourage innovation. A patented cancer cure is better than not having a cure at all.

Patent Infringement - Patent infringement occurs once the patent get granted. Patent laws are country-specific. Under US law, 35 U.S. Code § 271 states the following:

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.

(b) Whoever actively induces infringement of a patent shall be liable as an infringer.

Direct Infringement - It occurs when the main party makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells the invention without the inventor's permission.

The term "main party" depends on the claim language. From the Apple perspective "Sign in with Apple" is a product. From the Developer perspective "Sign in with Apple" is a "medium" for sending mails. The "main party or parties" doesn't need to know that a patent exists in order to be held liable.

Indirect Infringement - Secondary liability, or indirect infringement, arises when a party materially contributes to, facilitates, induces, or is otherwise responsible for infringing acts carried out by the main party.

Induced Infringement - A form of Indirect Infringement where the party "cause, urge, encourage, or aid" the infringing acts carried out by the main party.

As @cmaier points out my invention lacks "Non-Obviousness" according to Indian patent office. But my PCT application is an omnibus application. Meaning, a single application contains multiple inventions.

Ofcourse I know about openid. In patent law "elements" matter. Apple is trying to "circumvent" my invention. Apple ditched "OAuth" because my patent specification covers that. My patent specification also covers "openid". That's why they cannot go for "openid"

I'm not saying I invented "openid". My invention contains the element "openid". So while narrowing the claim, I can use that element to make my invention "non-obvious".



Yes I was trying to show that I have the "basic" knowledge.

So, still no actual proof of these mythical filed patents, then...
 
Here's what I don't understand. You aren't saying apple is using your invention, correct? You are just saying they *should*, correct?

And if so, why would anything you say have any effect on what Apple chose to do with regard to the extension? After all, *on the same day* that Epic announced that Fortnite would lose sign in with apple, apple said that would not be the case. Later they officially announced the "indefinite extension," but that was following massive media coverage.

I'm saying Apple is going for my inventive steps without my permission.

As of now, my "App Store" app requirement claim is placed as an dependent claim. I wrote those claims a year back. So I was not paying much attention to that claim. Since my patent is not granted yet, Apple thinks my independent claim will get narrowed. So they don't have to worry about "provisional rights".

The law says "to obtain a reasonable royalty shall not be available under this subsection unless the invention as claimed in the patent is substantially identical to the invention as claimed in the published patent application.". When patent claim get narrowed, I lose the provisional rights. That is why Apple is offering "indefinite extension". It is not "indefinite". If it is "indefinite", you don't have to call that as "extension".
 
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I'm saying Apple is going for my inventive steps without my permission.

You've provided no proof of this whatsoever.

And you've provided even less evidence that this is in any way related to Epic apart from a totally fictional narrative you've created and are now desperately trying to get anyone to believe here.

Your emperor has no clothes.
 
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Several things I don't understand with this theory.

First, Apple's business is not Sign In With Apple. So what business are you referring to?

As to your point (a), why would apple *WANT* anyone to use Sign In With Apple if they don't have an app on the app store? How does that help Apple? Apple is in the business of selling devices and getting a cut of app store transactions. If developers say "i won't support sign in with apple because I am only on android and windows" or whatever, why would Apple care?

My bad. I didn't word this properly.

"Apple is literally killing their business".

That should have been

"Apple is literally killing the developer business."
 
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I asked for actual accepted patent filings with the appropiate government agencies.

Ergo, you don't act have any.

All you have to do is reply with links to those actual filed patents.

Links going to YOUR service are not valid.

The patent application is accepted. That's why it got published.



 
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My bad. I didn't word this properly.

"Apple is literally killing their business".

That should have been

"Apple is literally killing the developer business."

Literally? Are you sure?

Seems to me, given how much money Apple have made from the App store that it's doing rather well...
 
Literally? Are you sure?

Seems to me, given how much money Apple have made from the App store that it's doing rather well...

I'm not saying Apple killing their own developer business. Of course they are doing well.

I'm saying Apple is killing the business of a developer when they ban app from their "App Store". In this case Fortnite is the "App". Epic games is the "Developer".
 
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So, it's a provisional application.

That's currently not enforceable.

For email mailboxes.

That needs a full application to be made in the next 2.5 months before it can even be used to make a claim.

That postdates Apple's use of SIWA by several months.

Hah!!!!!!
 
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I'm not saying Apple killing their own developer business. Of course they are doing well.

I'm saying Apple is killing the business of a developer when they ban app from their "App Store". In this case Fortnite is the "App". Epic games is the "Developer".

Listen, carry on with this pretense if you will. I've got far better things to do then help justify your fantasies.

Good luck with suing Apple - you'll need it...
 
Listen, carry on with this pretense if you will. I've got far better things to do then help justify your fantasies.

Good luck with suing Apple - you'll need it...

Really thanks man. It's really hard to explain how patent system works to you. I'm sure people who has knowledge about patent system smiling at the moment.

I wish you good luck as well.
 
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Ofcourse I know about openid. In patent law "elements" matter. Apple is trying to "circumvent" my invention. Apple ditched "OAuth" because my patent specification covers that. My patent specification also covers "openid". That's why they cannot go for "openid"

I'm not saying I invented "openid". My invention contains the element "openid". So while narrowing the claim, I can use that element to make my invention "non-obvious".



Yes I was trying to show that I have the "basic" knowledge.

of course you understand that there is nothing wrong with "circumventing" an invention. And of course you understand that Apple cannot be infringing a patent that does exist.
 
Was it, though? Epic have yet to provide any evidence to show it was at risk.

I think we may have been evaluating risk in a different way – I was talking about the risk to usage and adoption of this feature by Apple customers and Developers.

It has somewhat devalued the, “Sign in with Apple“ feature over a dispute with one company.

As an example, there are Apple customers and developers in this thread that have said they are now thinking twice about either using or including a feature in their apps because of this stance by Apple.

That’s evidence of risk – whether it’s a risk worth taking, we’ll see.
 
....It has somewhat devalued the, “Sign in with Apple“ feature over a dispute with one company.
I don’t see that. What happens to sign in with Facebook if Facebook cancels your account.
As an example, there are Apple customers and developers in this thread that have said they are now thinking twice about either using or including a feature in their apps because of this stance by Apple.
It may also be one or two people or ten or twenty out of hundreds of millions.
That’s evidence of risk – whether it’s a risk worth taking, we’ll see.
There’s evidence of risk, whether that risk amounts to a hill of beans is the question.
 
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I think we may have been evaluating risk in a different way – I was talking about the risk to usage and adoption of this feature by Apple customers and Developers.

It has somewhat devalued the, “Sign in with Apple“ feature over a dispute with one company.

As an example, there are Apple customers and developers in this thread that have said they are now thinking twice about either using or including a feature in their apps because of this stance by Apple.

That’s evidence of risk – whether it’s a risk worth taking, we’ll see.

Given that as if now Epic have yet to prove that this was even being considered by Apple, yet alone actually threatened, I'm not feeling even the remotest concern over my current usage of SIWA.

So not think for a second that Macrumors posters reflect "real life". My wife, for example, only knows about this issue because I told her, even though she knows of Fortnite.
 
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