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Section 101 of the copyright law provides a definition of the word "copy" for the purpose of interpretation of copyright law. A "copy" is the physical object which contains a copyrighted work, and from which the work could be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated. An exception for this definition is a phonorecord (ie. a physical object containing an audio recording, other than a sound track for a motion picture or other audiovisual work), which is not considered a copy but is treated seperately.

The physical object is the copy, so ownership of the object is identical to ownership of the copy.

Wherever the law lists exceptions to exclusive rights, conditional on the user owning a "copy" of a copyrighted work (such as section 117), by definition the law is granting the exception to the owner of the physical object on which the work was conveyed.

In the case of computer software, the DVD would constitute a "copy". So, if you have legal ownership of the DVD, then for the purposes of copyright law, you do own a copy of the software. Mind you, you don't own the copyright to that software.

If Apple wants to prevent you from owning the copy of the software, then for the purposes of copyright law, their contention must be that you do not own the physical object on which the software was conveyed to you.

This information is all true and doesn't contradict what I was saying. The Autodesk case acknowledged several prior court decisions affirming that software is licensed, while still determining that for the purposes of the first sale doctrine the copy in the retail box was owned.

In the Psystar case, Apple is contending (per previous case law) that the copy on the DVD is licensed and not owned.

Now, even if it's possible that a Hackintosher might not be violating Apple's copyright, it's still entirely possible that they're independently violating a contract they entered into with Apple, namely, the EULA.

There are three main points in section 117 that require clarification by the courts. First is the issue above about whether the copy on the DVD is licensed or owned per copyright limitations. The second is whether the right of the consumer to install the software on "a" computer in order to "utilize" it applies to "any" computer or just a computer on which it was designed to be utilized. Third is whether the process required to install OS X on a non-Mac creates a derivative work.

I could understand the EULA if and only if I signed a license agreeing with the contract with Apple before handing over the money.
Not after the fact of purchasing when presented with the EULA and the fact is you cant disagree or receive any return of your money.
If your buying a "copy" its the same as buying any other software, your free to sell or use as you wish.
Apple doesnt have a leg to stand on!

If you are in the US, you are legally entitled to a refund if you do not agree to the license. Apple's license specifies this fact explicitly, so I assume it would apply most everywhere.

But this would all be a mute point if only Apple would fill a huge gapping hole in their product line, offer a vanilla box computer thats matches a price point of other similar PC's. Their market share would more than triple. It would be a win-win situation for computer users.

"If only they sold what I wanted at a price that I wanted, nobody would be forced to violate their licensing. I don't see why those greedy executives don't want the vast amounts of extra money that they would receive when the market share increases that I made up out of thin air occur. Sure, their margins would suffer, support would suffer, their brand would suffer, but higher market share! I mean, who could possibly lose as long as I get what I want?"
 
So why do people have such a hard time accepting the fact that OS X is designed for Apple hardware?

did apple design the ddr3 samsung ram it has inside?
apple designed seagate or toshiba hard drives?
apple designed Core2duo and i7 mobile cpus?
apple designed broadcom network cards?


WHAT is apple SPECIFIC in their notebooks and sad excuse for desktops that no other computer in the world has?

and dont say something stupid like the shade of white, apple did not design color or the light spectrum
 
Yea but 99% of the Hackintosh World uses iPC or Aktos etc which is piracy.

Thank you. Piracy is illegal. Downloading unauthorized ISO images of modified OS X install DVD's is illegal. But go ahead, try and justify it to yourself that you are within your rights because you are special and not subject to the law.

As I said, some of you people here could convince yourselves that you are superman if you tried hard enough. Grow up.

did apple design the ddr3 samsung ram it has inside?
apple designed seagate or toshiba hard drives?
apple designed Core2duo and i7 mobile cpus?
apple designed broadcom network cards?


WHAT is apple SPECIFIC in their notebooks and sad excuse for desktops that no other computer in the world has?

and dont say something stupid like the shade of white, apple did not design color or the light spectrum


What is XBox SPECIFIC in their consoles so that they can only play XBox games? Yeah they have custom motherboards, but so do Apple systems. Your argument is stupid.
 
Apple could stop the whole problem by no longer offering the OS in retail, maybe...

Apple could stop the whole problem by seeing through its case with Psystar and continuing to make it harder for infringers to install OS X on unautorized hardware. Hackintosh users aren't Apple's real problem. It's entities like Psystar. Once that battle is won, the message will be sent, loud and clear. Apple can then go about building more safeguards and blocks into OS X. with each update if they so choose.

This of course, assumes it wa Apple's inention to target hackintosh users, as opposed to some other (perhaps more likely) reason to drop Atom support.
 
Meaningless. And I know of 20 who are switching to OS X in my immediate peer circle.

"OS X is much better and much cheaper."

So what.

I can throw out anecdotal numbers too. The only thing that tells the tale are the REAL numbers in quarterly reports from both Apple and MS. The rest is anonymous fluff.

cool I agree, I wasn't responding to you just the general.. 'if you use Mac you never go back' fallacy.

I agree on the MS/Apple numbers.

Apple will have roughly a 4% market share this year 10m/250m so whilst they aren't a rounding error they aren't that far off.
 
And in April, when asked to produce receipts or proof of purchase of the copies during discovery, they couldn't provide any.
So the customers who bought from Psystar did not get an OS disc? I find that hard to believe, because doing that part right was the key to the whole operation.

gnasher said:
To do anything useful with the software on the DVD, you will usually make two copies (a copy to the hard drive first, then a copy to RAM), and you need a license for that.
Law says the RAM copy is not an infringement, as it is part of normal operation.

argonic said:
because in fact, that's the same thing.
No, EULA is a contract violation, rather than a copyright infringement. (Detail: There are covenants, and conditions. Depending on what the court construes a particular sentence to be, a EULA violation can mean there is copyright infringement because the EULA is no longer in effect to give you the license.)

uberamd said:
What is XBox SPECIFIC in their consoles so that they can only play XBox games? Yeah they have custom motherboards, but so do Apple systems. Your argument is stupid.
Your argument disproves your point. Sony v. Connectix & Sega v. Accolade show that video game system tying protections can be legally defeated. Apple sells a one-game video machine. The best route for protection is to use a DMCA anti-piracy device that also locks out other competitors, or actually have a patentable feature that no one else can use.
 
Reality Check!

So many EULA arguements over the last few months... where have they all come from?!

At the end of the day it is irrelevant whether or not the EULA is legal/enforcable or not. Most people's actions are not dictated by what the law is but by what they think is right and what they think they can get away with.

Some think breaking an EULA (or the spirit in which it was intended) is wrong, others do not. What we are all aware of is that you get away with making a Hackintosh for your own use... Apple either doesn't know or doesn't care enough to prosecute. So the legality of an EULA is a moot point.

Here in the UK apple seem to put prices up all the time. I have the last non-unibody white MB (£749 before education discount) and the new one is £50 more (and just one year ago they were £699), all at a time when Dell/HP computers seems to be getting cheaper. When my warranty runs out in three years I may think the 'Apple Tax' is too large to be worth it (I always say windows does not have to be as good as OS X, only good enough to make the price increase to Mac too much). A Hackintosh would be a tempting alternative, but I probably lack the skills to achieve it. If I could build one, buying a legit copy of OS X and installing it on non-mac hardware wouldn't make me feel guilty for a second.
 
1. The box containing MacOS X 10.6 has written on it "sale subject to acceptance of license". The sale isn't complete when you get the box, it is complete when you accept the license. Before that point there is no sale.

2. Most contracts work without any person signing anything. And it is quite normal that terms and conditions are available to you _after_ you hand over the money, as long as this happens _before_ the sale is final. In the case of Apple's licenses, they are all freely available, just type "Mac OS X license" into Google.

3. According to Apple's SLA, which is presented to you after handing over your money, but _before_ the sale is actually final, you _can_ disagree with the license and you _will_ get your money back. If you have actual evidence that says otherwise, feel free to post it here.



As I said, Apple writes on the package "Sale is subject to acceptance of the license". Because of that, the sequence "Apple displays MacOS X on their store shelf", "Customer grabs package", "Customer hands over money", "Customer leaves the store" has _not_ the "characteristics of a sale" at all. When you accepted the license (usually when you click "Accept" in the installer), that is when the contract between you and Apple becomes a contract, and that is when we can start discussing if it has the "characteristics of a sale" or not. And since you just accepted a license, your interpretation seems very weak.

This would be completely different if Apple claimed that the deal was final when you left the store with the goods and didn't offer a refund if you don't accept the license. If you tried to return a copy of MacOS X after not accepting the license and Apple actually refused a refund, that would be a problem for Apple.



With software, it makes very little difference whether you "own" the copy of the software on the DVD or not, because there is very little that you can do with software on a DVD without copying it. This is different from a book, which I can read without copying, or a CD, which I can play without copying. To do anything useful with the software on the DVD, you will usually make two copies (a copy to the hard drive first, then a copy to RAM), and you need a license for that.



wrong,wrong, wrong...


so wrong its' not funny.

the world doesn't start in California and it doesn't end in Long Island....
 
The only reason why you get cheap PC's is because of all the crap installed - take away the crap and you'll have OEM's pushing up the price to make up for the loss in cash from the crapware.

Suck it up PC trolls - your computers are going to be equal in price to Mac's.

are you serious? or are you just trolling?

the reason why pcs are cheap is because you can build it yourself (both desktops and laptops), for whatever rip off price dell has their desktops for, i can build a cheaper one thats faster, has more storage, more ports, and more expandability in a case of my choosing.

dell has to compete with websites like newegg or tigerdirect as well, and competition is so high that alot of sites only mark CPU's up by $1 (this is direct from the owner of a local computer store)
 
The North Korea of the computer world strikes again. :mad:

I didn't check to see if others have said this first, since this thread is tl;dr, but lemme just say that at least there's one bright spot to this: Apple won't be using the Atom in any of their systems! Yessss!!!! :D

I'm reminded of the horror I felt back when the GMA-based Mac mini was 500+ days old, and all the analysts were either predicting the mini's imminent death, or a new version horribly crippled with the Atom. Thankfully neither scenario became reality. :eek:
 
So you would need to buy a new computer to get the latest version of OS X? :rolleyes:
What is wrong with that? It assures that Apple gets its hardware profit. Wait, don't you want to support Apple by buying a new computer every two years to have the latest OS?
What is XBox SPECIFIC in their consoles so that they can only play XBox games? Yeah they have custom motherboards, but so do Apple systems. Your argument is stupid.

The CPU, and GPU are pretty specific. As is the EDRAM.
 
So the customers who bought from Psystar did not get an OS disc? I find that hard to believe, because doing that part right was the key to the whole operation.

Psystar does include a retail box of OS X.

Law says the RAM copy is not an infringement, as it is part of normal operation.

What law?
 
your argument is illogical

Dell Inspiron (545 brought up to specs of the mac)

Apple fans always try this tactic - dumping tons of upgrades on the cheaper Windows system, doubling or tripling its price in order "to match the Apple", and then claiming that Apples are a better value.

If you *require* each and every one of those features, it might be valid. If you want the PC for a particular task, the features may be adding cost without adding value.

If you're on a budget (or saving money for the future), you may decide that the extra Apple features are unnecessary, and that (as was posted recently) Apple is "the computer for the rich of us".

Now, if you could "opt out" of the Apple features, and see if the Imac comes down to the price of the Inspiron....


Really, I know of 10 who have switched back, in my immediate peer circle.

Win 7 is much better and much cheaper.....

Some friends with both Windows and Apples (I don't know anyone who switched completely - they bought an Apple but still use their Windows systems) also complain about "doing thing's Steve's way". OSX seems rigid and constraining to them.
 
What is wrong with that? It assures that Apple gets its hardware profit. Wait, don't you want to support Apple by buying a new computer every two years to have the latest OS?


The CPU, and GPU are pretty specific. As is the EDRAM.


In my experience Apple hardware doesn't usually last that long ..! :p
 
What I mean about illegal tracks, cracked software, if you download it or you use it, you are no better then people that uses hackintosch. You also harm someone else's business.

If you're not guilty about this, then you got the right to speak.
 
BaldiMac, click this link:
http://www.amazon.com/Mac-version-1..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0CYYEGJ5BK4G664WN9VR
And please tell where you see the term license is used in the sale?


It doesn't matter what Amazon does or does not say in their marketing. What matters is what the Box says and what Apple says. Amazon is not a copyright holder, they are just a reseller. They do not have to disclose licensing terms or describe the product as licensed since the Snow Leopard Box says that there is a license.
 
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What is wrong with that? It assures that Apple gets its hardware profit. Wait, don't you want to support Apple by buying a new computer every two years to have the latest OS?

I buy a new computer when I want to, not when Apple tells me to. I've just updated my 3 year old Mac Book Pro and my 18 month old iMac to Snow Leopard for £39, it would cost over £2600 if Apple were to go with your suggestion.

And no, I don't want to "support" Apple. I like a lot of their products and buy the things I need (and often some I don't need :eek:) As a company they are no different to Microsoft, Dell or any other multi billion dollar corporation. I certainly don't have the emotional attachment to Apple that a lot of people on here seem to have.
 
One of the best news stories I have heard for ages. Seriously. Kill off those ghastly hackintoshes - if you wanna use Mac OS X, buy a Mac :rolleyes:.

It's a rubbish way to run Mac OS X, and I don't care what excuses some of you are inevitably going to give me...

Just. Don't. Care.

If you want to own & use the world's best computer, BUY the world's best computer!.
 
It doesn't matter what Amazon does or does not say in their marketing. What matters is what the Box says and what Apple says. Amazon is not a copyright holder, they are just a reseller. They do not have to disclose licensing terms or describe the product as licensed since the Snow Leopard Box says that there is a license.



er no...

the S/L box only says that there is a licence not what those licence terms are.

so, if you buy S/L from them and then don't like the terms, which you can't know until you open the box then Apple says to return it but Amazon's policy says that you CANNOT return opened software.

In the UK your contract of sale is with Amazon not Apple and at the point that Amazon takes the money.

It is for this reason that the EULA (in Germany for example) has provably been shown to be useless.

It is illogical, unreasonable and unfair to buy such an item, which includes a provision for rejecting the license terms and then NOT offer a means to obtain the refund.

If Apple want to go down that line then they shouldn't deal with re-sellers and should accept returned opened software.
 
One of the best news stories I have heard for ages. Seriously. Kill off those ghastly hackintoshes - if you wanna use Mac OS X, buy a Mac :rolleyes:.

It's a rubbish way to run Mac OS X, and I don't care what excuses some of you are inevitably going to give me...

Just. Don't. Care.

If you want to own the world's best computer, BUY the world's best computer!.

Not. Even. Close.
 
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