Apple Discontinues Xserve, Only Available Until January 31st

[Mattie Num Nums]

Figured I would answer from my perspective.

1) Active Directory
2) Part of the imaging process
3) Active Directory with schema additions
4) We run Deploy Studio, we don't necessarily need OS X Server for this
5) How is this relevant to Server? Also, why doesn't ARD count?
6) AD
7) Not necessary
8) Not necessary - although, what exactly do you mean here? Why would you want "Mac Only" services?

1.) The Build in AD plug-in is mediocre at best.
2.) Monolithic Images are a terrible way of managing an Enterprise Environment. The proper way would be to push a policy. From the sound of the network it sounds like all of your users would be Admins as well meaning they could easily unbind. Policy would prevent all of that.
3.) The standard Schema extensions provided by Apple are hardly enough to even scratch the surface. Also, scalability is limited, as well as these Extensions are UNSUPPORTED by Apple.
4.) Deploy studio is not an enterprise solution.
6.) ARD is irrelevant because it does not allow things like connection VIA SSH meaning you are limited to connecting to machines. Remote Netboot cannot be completed without scripting and you can only push PKGs and MPKGs (if you use Casper you can push DMG files which also when pushed populate custom preferences to user_template.)
7.) SMB in OSX is severely outdated and full of security holes.
8.) Fair enough.

HP and Dell don't have any official roadmaps, but every year when Intel releases new CPU they release new servers with them. sometimes we have 2 years of a server generation but with CPU upgrades. we still have a bunch of gen 1 to gen 4 HP servers and getting rid of them little by little. larger organizations do it faster since the ROI on replacing old servers with new G7's is amazing.

with Mac Pro and XServe not getting an upgrade for 2 years and still costing a ridiculous amount of money there is no way you can justify a return on investment

I have the official HP roadmap on my computer right now directly from HP. It matches our EA with them.

Sorry, nope.

That is all you can do with Active Directory out of the box. If you extend the AD schema you get full control as if you were running OS X Server.

It would be impossible to utilize Windows GPO in OS X, without extensions to AD.

This is why most use the Magic Triangle.

The schema extension is a cheap bandaid that any real administrator would avoid. Its an unsupported script provided by Apple Engineering and is limited to I believe only 16 extensions vs. Casper or Centrify which offer unlimited scalable extensions and is supported.

Services for Mac were dropped in Microsoft Server 2003.

 

[PhoneI]

PhoneI ... How do you justify overpriced Apple devices when the server side support is not there. You just can not justify it to the people holding the check book unless it is a complete integrated solution.

James.

Well, overpriced is determined by what you are willing to spend on something. We give our users a choice on what type of device to use (with some limitations). We are seeing a huge demand over the last few years for Apple devices. We have conducted surveys in which almost every potential mobile user would choose an iPhone (or Android device) over the traditionally supported Blackberry. MacBook demand is also way higher than just a few years ago.

Our server infrastructure is being almost entirely virtualized now. I do not believe we ever had any OSX servers. Not having these servers hasn't hurt demand or acceptance of other Apple products.

 

[fpnc]

Does anyone know what type of server Apple is using in that big data center?

Given this announcement, I doubt it's Xserve boxes...

Yes, this could be the key fact related to this announcement. However, given the size and scale of the new data center I'm sure that Apple is using a lot of equipment that wouldn't fall in the Xserve category. But, if they didn't even use Xserve for their 1U installations then that would be really telling.

 

[Mattie Num Nums]

Yes, this could be the key fact related to this announcement. However, given the size and scale of the new data center I'm sure that Apple is using a lot of equipment that wouldn't fall in the Xserve category. But, if they didn't even use Xserve for their 1U installations then that would be really telling.

When I was working at Apple they had a lot of Sun servers.

 

[sweetie81]

Well was a nice product but in the server market more than a good looking device. Not necessarily bad but let's face it servers are dominated by IBM, then at some point HP ( ), Dell and then probably some time later Apple.

The idea of offering a MacPro as server really shows where Apple wants to go to. Because no company will be using 25 or more of those servers in their premises. That would be a bit funny.

Anyway I'd suggest you move to a nice blade server and be happy about it. Sorry about dissing Apple but that's the way it goes in the server market. Apple are just a small number in the market.

Time to move to AIX etc.

 

[Mattie Num Nums]

Well was a nice product but in the server market more than a good looking device. Not necessarily bad but let's face it servers are dominated by IBM, then at some point HP ( ), Dell and then probably some time later Apple.

The idea of offering a MacPro as server really shows where Apple wants to go to. Because no company will be using 25 or more of those servers in their premises. That would be a bit funny.

Anyway I'd suggest you move to a nice blade server and be happy about it. Sorry about dissing Apple but that's the way it goes in the server market. Apple are just a small number in the market.

Time to move to AIX etc.

Telling any Server Team they need to deploy towers in the Data Centre will gain you a moment of hilarity.

 

[KnightWRX]

Time to move to AIX etc.

Too bad the people using this can't actually move to another Unix vendor :

http://www.apple.com/ca/finalcutserver/specs/

Server: Minimum Requirements

* Mac computer with an Intel processor
* 2GB of RAM (4GB of RAM recommended)
* ATI or NVIDIA graphics processor (integrated Intel graphics processors not supported)
* Mac OS X v10.5.6 or later
* QuickTime 7.6 or later
* DVD drive for installation
* 1.5GB of disk space required to install all applications

Telling any Server Team they need to deploy towers in the Data Centre will gain you a moment of hilarity.

Telling any server team that you're discontinuing support for a platform with only 2 month's notice and no upgrade path will lose you any chance you have of ever coming back to their server room.

 

[calderone]

1.) The Build in AD plug-in is mediocre at best.
2.) Monolithic Images are a terrible way of managing an Enterprise Environment. The proper way would be to push a policy. From the sound of the network it sounds like all of your users would be Admins as well meaning they could easily unbind. Policy would prevent all of that.
3.) The standard Schema extensions provided by Apple are hardly enough to even scratch the surface. Also, scalability is limited, as well as these Extensions are UNSUPPORTED by Apple.
4.) Deploy studio is not an enterprise solution.
6.) ARD is irrelevant because it does not allow things like connection VIA SSH meaning you are limited to connecting to machines. Remote Netboot cannot be completed without scripting and you can only push PKGs and MPKGs (if you use Casper you can push DMG files which also when pushed populate custom preferences to user_template.)
7.) SMB in OSX is severely outdated and full of security holes.
8.) Fair enough.



I have the official HP roadmap on my computer right now directly from HP. It matches our EA with them.

1) Absolutely disagree. Give me some substance, not simple garbage like "mediocre"
2) Please, where did I say I deploy monolithic images. Want to make any more assumptions? I said process, meaning we have done some engineering to make this happen. P.S. We are pushing policy as I described.

3) Do tell? The extensions provide all of the relevant functionality necessary. Remember we are extending AD, meaning adding in Apple specific LDAP properties. So what if they aren't supported. This is LDAP. Things aren't going to break because Apple doesn't support them.

4) And Casper is? Because you blew your money on it? Please. We do engineering here. But do tell, in what way isn't DeployStudio "enterprise."

6) So you turn on SSH. Since when does netbooting require scripting and how the hell does that relate to pushing pks and DMGs?

Again, you are assuming my environment. We can do everything you can (probably better) without crappy packaged products.

7) And AFP isn't? You know this for a fact? If you do it right, SMB is absolutely fine.

Please, do not make assumptions. You know what they say. And give me some substance, not this drive-by impressions.

If you want to have a real discussion about my environment, please ask.

 

[lilo777]

And the real question is...

What's next on the chopping block? I guess it must be Mac Pro (and all professional software with it).

 

[marksman]

The end of an era - this made me feel quite sad. The X-Serve was an awesome bit of hardware and although it made a lot of noise it meant that Apple at least had a toe-hold in hte enterprise space.

Even a toe would be over-stating how much of an impact or interest xserves had...

Seems like a good move for Apple. Pretty much a waste of resources. They had no traction or real market share. I know some people who used xserves, but I know a lot more who do not, by a massive margin. Not Windows vs OS margins, but say 100x greater than that or even more.

For all intents and purposes this product line did not even exist.. so killing it is irrelevant. Not sure why so many negative comments on this story. Odds are 99.99999% of the people who negged the comments never used an xserve and never would have used one.

 

[Bishop604]

Not the end of xserve

I don't see this as the end of xserve just the beginning of a new product, I think Apple is planing on releasing a new version of the Mac Pro Case one that would work as both a desktop and in a server rack maybe a 3u size. If apple dropped the xserve what would they use in there own backend?

The Mac Pro case is huge and does not need to be that size anymore, it was created back in the day when the G5 cpu could cool your breakfast and required a small nuclear reactor to power it, look at how small the mac mini is Apple can do it.

If apple was smart they would drop the more expensive zeon CPU's and go to cheaper i7 Quad core and faster CPU.

Think of it? it would be like cutting your feet off.

 

[KnightWRX]

4) And Casper is? Because you blew your money on it? Please. We do engineering here. But do tell, in what way isn't DeployStudio "enterprise."

Not to interrupt, but you could have looked it up :

http://www.jamfsoftware.com/products/casper-suite/

A unified and extensible framework for Mac OS X Client Management

The Casper Suite simplifies the life of system administrators with a comprehensive platform to deploy, update, activate and report for Mac OS X. The Casper Suite increases the efficiency of your IT staff, reduces the cost of ownership, and minimizes liability by providing a framework that enforces software licensing compliance, security standards, energy usage, and other organizational rules and requirements.

I don't see this as the end of xserve just the beginning of a new product, I think Apple is planing on releasing a new version of the Mac Pro Case one that would work as both a desktop and in a server rack maybe a 3u size.

If it takes up 3U, it better have more than 12 cores and 32 GB of RAM.

 

[calderone]

Not to interrupt, but you could have looked it up :

http://www.jamfsoftware.com/products/casper-suite/

Thanks for another assumption. No, I have never ever looked at Casper.

The question was, what is wrong with DeployStudio, not what you think is right about Casper.

 

[KnightWRX]

Thanks for another assumption. No, I have never ever looked at Casper.

Well, why did you ask what it was then ?

Remember kids, sarcasm never translates well to written posts, especially if you don't use the smilies.

 

[Mattie Num Nums]

1) Absolutely disagree. Give me some substance, not simple garbage like "mediocre"
2) Please, where did I say I deploy monolithic images. Want to make any more assumptions? I said process, meaning we have done some engineering to make this happen. P.S. We are pushing policy as I described.

3) Do tell? The extensions provide all of the relevant functionality necessary. Remember we are extending AD, meaning adding in Apple specific LDAP properties. So what if they aren't supported. This is LDAP. Things aren't going to break because Apple doesn't support them.

4) And Casper is? Because you blew your money on it? Please. We do engineering here. But do tell, in what way isn't DeployStudio "enterprise."

6) So you turn on SSH. Since when does netbooting require scripting and how the hell does that relate to pushing pks and DMGs?

Again, you are assuming my environment. We can do everything you can (probably better) without crappy packaged products.

7) And AFP isn't? You know this for a fact? If you do it right, SMB is absolutely fine.

Please, do not make assumptions. You know what they say. And give me some substance, not this drive-by impressions.

If you want to have a real discussion about my environment, please ask.

1.) How about login scripting limitation for one and 100% Kerberization.

2.) So you engineered AD binding as what a deplorable script? So let me guess you haven't "engineered" a Zero Touch Solution?

3.) You are dodging the real issue again. You are banking all support on an Unsupported Script which is still limited and not scalable. Two words Enterprise IT Directors hate.

4.) Casper does everything Microsoft SCCM or Symantec Altiris does for Windows. We didn't blow our money its called good Enterprise solutions. Every Enterprise has a Software Deployment and Management system. Your elitist I can script or engineer everything attitude shows lack of direction for your environment. This is an Enterprise not a proving ground.

6.) I have a ZERO TOUCH environment, I can jump subnets, sites, cities, countries, and do it over a secure tunnel. You can't with ARD.

7.) AFP is a supported Apple protocol that offers many advantages over SMB. Of course you have an ACTC you should know all that already! You know 400-600x faster than SMB, improved security, more meta data and searching capabilities, native time machine and spotlight, Supports Apple File name, descriptions, and special characters, enhanced caching, no ACL/POSIX fights.

I'm not making assumptions. You are justifying bandaids on a gunshot wound.

Thanks for another assumption. No, I have never ever looked at Casper.

The question was, what is wrong with DeployStudio, not what you think is right about Casper.

Nothing like banking your enterprise on an open source project. Deploy Studio was in use at one our divisions here until we offered to share them a portion of our Casper license. Needless to say they no longer use Deploy Studio.

 

[mytdave]

They ceded that years ago. Xserves were pointless. They were beautiful, very expensive, and thus an IT manager's nightmare. I think Apple is just fine with the lil' old iPad gaining adoption in the enterprise, bit by bit.

Foolish? Uh . . . what? Apple's the most successful company in tech today, bar none. They drive innovation in the industry - well the consumer end, of course.

Was your dream to run a server farm in your basement?

What, you think a presence in the enterprise lends a company some sort of "air of respectability"?? Are you kidding?? What lends them respectability is performance, consumer satisfaction and mindshare.

You're not an IT Admin are you? This move is a huge loss in credibility for Apple. Oh, and BTW, the XServe had the best price point in the industry for Xeon 1U servers.

 

[calderone]

Well, why did you ask what it was then ?

Remember kids, sarcasm never translates well to written posts, especially if you don't use the smilies.

Learn to read in context. The question "And Casper is?" was in response to the suggestion that DeployStudio was not enterprise. The full question would be "And Casper is enterprise-level?"

Lesson, you shouldn't have butted in.

 

[Schizoid]

the big question is of course... is Mac OS X Server next for the push?

I've got a feeling it is soon to die...

 

[shervieux]

Sign of changing times

I have only seen one of these ever. But let's face it. Cloud computing in a sense is already here. I have been out of work since June and every place I go to apply for a job, they tell me that their I/T is outsourced through (and they name the company); or that their data center is in Costa Rica, Cosa Mesa, Mexico, or several states away. Most companies now have super fast internet connection and desktops or laptops in house. Only some have 1 or 2 smaller servers for accessing vast amounts of data quickly, where the server (has a separate process) to sync the data with the data center.

More and more companies are having smaller facilities and leasing computer space. Only your huge dinosaur (in terms of size) companies actually have an in house computer room.

Also, since I have been out of work, and am heavily applying for jobs. More and more I see the vacant large office buildings giving way to smaller facilities.

Companies are discovering that it is more cost effective to have their employees work out of their homes or have several employees at smaller buildings spread out across the country and world (less in real estate tax, can easily move or close an office in a bad economy area, no need to pay a heavily sought employee relocation, saves in terms of utilities [especially if the employee is home-based]). Before losing my job, I worked for a virtual company. All our meetings were done via webex.

Plus many companies see computer hardware as being too expensive and thus have implemented VmWare ESX where they can distribute a system across a few servers (thus needing less powered servers - ie take 1 CPU from this server, another from this server, x amount of ram from this server, x amount from this server). The way VMWare works, you really do not see a performance hit and it keeps the base servers running optimally.

Long gone are the days of 1 server per function. (plus many skirt licensing as the OS is not tied to a particular hardware)

 

[Mattie Num Nums]

Learn to read in context. The question "And Casper is?" was in response to the suggestion that DeployStudio was not enterprise. The full question would be "And Casper is enterprise-level?"

Lesson, you shouldn't have butted in.

Figures your idea of a well managed environment would match your attitude.

Crappy.

 

[calderone]

1.) How about login scripting limitation for one and 100% Kerberization.

2.) So you engineered AD binding as what a deplorable script? So let me guess you haven't "engineered" a Zero Touch Solution?

3.) You are dodging the real issue again. You are banking all support on an Unsupported Script which is still limited and not scalable. Two words Enterprise IT Directors hate.

4.) Casper does everything Microsoft SCCM or Symantec Altiris does for Windows. We didn't blow our money its called good Enterprise solutions. Every Enterprise has a Software Deployment and Management system. Your elitist I can script or engineer everything attitude shows lack of direction for your environment. This is an Enterprise not a proving ground.

6.) I have a ZERO TOUCH environment, I can jump subnets, sites, cities, countries, and do it over a secure tunnel. You can't with ARD.

7.) AFP is a supported Apple protocol that offers many advantages over SMB. Of course you have an ACTC you should know all that already! You know 400-600x faster than SMB, improved security, more meta data and searching capabilities, native time machine and spotlight, Supports Apple File name, descriptions, and special characters, enhanced caching, no ACL/POSIX fights.

I'm not making assumptions. You are justifying bandaids on a gunshot wound.



Nothing like banking your enterprise on an open source project. Deploy Studio was in use at one our divisions here until we offered to share them a portion of our Casper license. Needless to say they no longer use Deploy Studio.

1) I can do login hooks just fine through AD. What services are not "kerberized" in my environment?

2) My machine imaging solution is zero touch.

3) I didn't run a script from Apple. Maybe you are confused. We crafted the ldif based on Apple's additions to LDAP. These were then added to Active Directory. There is no "script." AD has the extensions and will now, always have the extensions. We are using the exact same LDAP attributes that you get with OD.

4) Our tools does the exact same thing as Casper. But it didn't cost us a dime. Of course there is time, but I don't imagine we spent anymore than you.

6) My question was what is wrong with ARD for the use case you proposed. That was pushing packages in your original post. You have now jumped beyond the scope of your original claim. ARD can push packages and perform other management tasks. I never claimed that this is my solution, nor that it is the best. Your original claim was that ARD doesn't count for the use case you mentioned, but it performs that use case just fine.

7) Love those marketing material huh?

Your are full of assumptions. You know squat about my environment and I don't have the desire to explain it. If you get off on blowing your money for prepackaged products instead of custom solutions, have at it. Sure you can install some software and click buttons, anybody can do that. That isn't administration, sorry to say.

But please continue to live in your world where everyone who isn't doing what you are doing is doing it wrong.

Figures your idea of a well managed environment would match your attitude.

Crappy.

You are right. You are so superior. I will go buy Casper right away and point and click, just like you.

 

[cult hero]

Ah, ok, I see your line of questioning...

This got me thinking:

With OSX becoming increasingly consumer based, Apple have no need for UNIX certification, also, Apple's target market has no need for Shell access so may as well just rip out the Terminal.app.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Terminal.app being removed after 10.7. Surely X11 is the next item to be discontinued.

It's pretty obvious no one involved in this conversation is a developer or has any understanding of why so many developers (not just Mac devs, but web and server devs) moved to Macs. The terminal is a huge part of debugging, analyzing, scripting, etc.

So long as OS X is UNIX based, there will be a terminal. The day it's not UNIX based, devs like me go elsewhere. Neither Apple nor Microsoft are retarded either, the strength of a platform is deeply rooted in giving developers what they want.

 

[Mattie Num Nums]

2) My machine imaging solution is zero touch.

You are right. You are so superior. I will go buy Casper right away and point and click, just like you.

This comment shows that you have no clue how the real world works. I can point and click and setup my entire enterprise while you are sifting google for shell scripts. I in turn have saved my company and clients time and money.

Have fun being Mr. Smarty Pants I do everything in terminal the hard way administrator. Its people with attitudes like yours that caused outsourcing.

#2 Do explain how it is zero touch? Are you using Netboot? If so what are you pushing bless commands via the ARD Unix command terminal?

 

[wildmac]

None of your "facts" lead to the logical conclusion you think they do. There's nothing particularly obvious from those at all, in fact, except that there are a series of mostly unrelated announcements from Apple that revolve around one basic point: Apple's changing the way they do business, slightly. They're no longer going to deal with stuff that doesn't sell and requires significant resources to keep up. They're no longer going to do other company's work for them (Sun and Adobe), because it only gets Apple in trouble and gets those other companies upset with them for not keeping up. And they have a new OS coming which integrates some good features from iOS (granted, there's not a lot of stuff in 10.7 that's been announced so far, but there's also nothing to even hint that it'll be "locked down" as the conspiracy theorists are claiming).

The inclusion of iOS into MacOS, specifically with the AppStore, is the clearest sign of their long-term plans. While it's just the first step, we also haven't seen the full implementation. The other concern is 10.7's default of the way applications are accessed. True you can get around it, but it's showing their path forward.

The fact that I now can't order an Apple server to support the graphics/photo/video departments I work with is another sign. No, I will not be able to put MacPros in our datacenter. If it's not rack-mounted, it's not going in. What server do I get to support these 50+ people?

While you see no signs of the "doom", it's clear to the rest of us what Apple's direction is.

 

[KnightWRX]

It's pretty obvious no one involved in this conversation is a developer or has any understanding of why so many developers (not just Mac devs, but web and server devs) moved to Macs. The terminal is a huge part of debugging, analyzing, scripting, etc.

So long as OS X is UNIX based, there will be a terminal. The day it's not UNIX based, devs like me go elsewhere. Neither Apple nor Microsoft are retarded either, the strength of a platform is deeply rooted in giving developers what they want.

I don't think Stella was saying anything different from what you are. He was questionning whether Apple really wants to continue down this path. I use OS X because it is Unix. Because it has a posix shell, X11, syslogd and all the other Unix goodness. However, we are not Apple's main market and more and more they are doing away with their niches (as evidenced by this recent move).

I think Stella was saying exactly what you are, after dropping the Xserve, who knows what's next. The Mac Pro ? All the pro software bundles ? The Unix certification and most of the "nice to have but not really needed" Unix tools ? Where does it end ?

This raises a lot of questions for Mac users that do indeed use this stuff.