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There is no possibility on earth if you do a proper native port it WONT be better than something going through translation or emulation. This is a fact. Not sure why you are arguing so much on this.

I have ran some PC games through game porting toolkit that also has a Mac version. Even if the Mac version runs on Rosetta it still performs better.

EDIT: I noticed your later post where you rephrase your argument to add the stipulation that the game has to be doing everything properly

While that’s true on a theoretical level the practical result is that most games DO have flaws that cause them to run sub optimally

Sure if we lived in a perfect world all games would do things as best as possible and therefore the native version would always win, but that’s not the case.
Also even if we lived in that perfect world the overhead of the translation layer is incredibly small nowadays and the advantage can be eaten up by the fact that windows is still unfortunately a very bloated OS

So yeah, theoretically native code will always be faster. But in practice? Not so much.

Feel free to ignore the rest of my response, I’m just leaving it just in case anyone else is interested

Actually it can
The reason is because some games can have poorly implemented techniques

Elden Ring played very poorly natively on PC when it released because whoever ported it from consoles didn’t bother to implement proper shader compilation
DXVK compiles shaders on its own and caused the game to run more smoothly through Proton than it did natively

For most games there’s a little bit of overhead, sure, but it’s so negligible that you would be hard pressed to noticed it, also Windows has so much junk running in the background even when Game Mode is disabled that it’s very possible to get better performance on Proton


I understand your skepticism, I was also convinced that there’s no way a solution as janky as running games through WINE would lead to equivalent performance, but these layers have advanced so much that they actually made it possible.
 
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Actually it can
The reason is because some games can have poorly implemented techniques

Okay for the thousandth time, PROPER is the keyword here. A well optimized native game will out perform something under translation.

Poorly implemented techniques means it’s not a proper well optimized port.
 
It would be nice if Apple did conversion themselves for a few AAA titles. Or buy a franchise. Or make a new one- bundle it free. Prove the concept to developers and customers.
 
Okay for the thousandth time, PROPER is the keyword here. A well optimized native game will out perform something under translation.

Poorly implemented techniques means it’s not a proper well optimized port.

People are pushing back on your assertion because given the state of gaming nowadays, well-optimized games at launch are an exception more-so than a rule.
 
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Okay for the thousandth time, PROPER is the keyword here. A well optimized native game will out perform something under translation.

Poorly implemented techniques means it’s not a proper well optimized port.
I actually responded to that point in my edited post, I missed it the first time
 
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Apple hardware is 100% now there as is Metal. There is no more excuses other than laziness and a fear of ROI for a limited market.

With that said I have a higher end Mac and have little to no desire to ever play a game on it. I have a desktop PC and gaming consoles for that. I think a lot of other Mac users feel the same way and Macs tend to be bought as productive machines for careers. I think the gaming mindset just isn't there and if a user truly loved gaming they would hav likely not bought a Mac in the first place. Therefore I think a higher percentage of Mac users just don't care about high end gaming the same way. Thats not to say some of us would to do it. Just that I don't think the sales potential is there which is what puts off game developers from spending the resources to develop Mac games.

A lot of Mac users tend to like more casual gaming they do on their phones. A device they always have wit them and can relax just about anywhere and play for a little bit.

I personally think Apple has a lot more potential market if they increase the hardware on the Apple TV or make a special higher priced Apple TV with a much better GPU meant for gaming. I play games on my Apple TV with a Xbox controller and it's just like any other gaming console. Except not nearly as good of a GPU and many of the games are rather limited or feel watered down. There are some exceptions but most of the games on the Apple are again more casual gamer focused. Since the Apple TV drives a HD or 4k display Apple really needs to beef up its hardware instead of making it one of the weakest mobile devices they have. It has a lot of potential but currently its really held back.

I also don't think Apple does enough to promote the concept of using Xbox and other wireless controllers with the Apple TV. It's mentioned but there are a lot of people out there that don't realize gaming can be console like on the Apple TV. If Apple makes a higher end Apple Console they should make their own controller as well or at least include 3rd party Xbox like controllers with it so people don't have to hunt for what works or figure it out on their own. They also need to encourage more games for Apple TV and actually add more than a handful of games to Apple Arcade a year. I keep Apple Arcade typically for one of two games and each time I think its time to cancel that one new games comes out that makes me want to keep it. Apple needs more games and better Apple TV hardware.

Mac gaming may never be a Hugh hit because I don't think a lot of current Mac owners have as much interest in high end gaming as other users might. As long as PC and consoles are still out there those users will never move to Mac. So its really stuck in this odd limbo to support a handful of people that prefer a Mac but also enjoy high end gaming on their computer.
 
As much complaints are on MR about RAm and storage pricing - why would anyone get a Mac for gaming when PCs are so much cheaper (according to MR folks)?
 
It’s still not possible. As a developer your code running as low level as possible gives you the best performance. So a proper native port will always perform better due to having less layers to deal with.

The majority of the time devs are too lazy to optimize so you are correct in that regard that there might be some benefit there. But there is not a chance that something being translated/emulated/or any other layer involved will perform better than something WITHOUT those things. Again…..properly done meaning well optimized here. If you are a coder you would understand this.

Heck as a gamer you might understand with the DRM involved in the code on some games. Just taking that out improves the game drastically. Why? Anything that prevents the game from running as low level and as fast as possible causes performance issues.

Elden Ring released on the same day as the Steam Deck. Literally a day after launch FromSoftware made a tweak in Proton and suddenly the game was now Deck Verified, with many users reporting better performance on Linux through Proton than through Windows. Didn't even need to make a patch to do it, they just did a minor tweak outside the game and now it was perfect.

BHVR Interactive made their smash multiplayer hit Dead by Daylight Deck Verified through a simple Proton tweak too and whitelisting the game on their anticheat. No patch required.

Auroch Digital the creators of Warhammer 40K Boltgun fixed an issue with cutscenes not displaying on Linux by just tweaking Proton a tiny bit. Not even needing to release an update, they just tweaked Proton a tiny bit and it was done, not even a few days since the bug was reported.

What's the saying again? Work smarter not harder?

I'm seriously starting to doubt your credibility as a "developer" now.
 
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I actually responded to that point in my edited post, I missed it the first time
We see this proven all the time. Native arm builds of Adobe software perform better than the ones under Rosetta. Factorio had a major boost with their arm build. And as a developer I’m quite aware of this as I deal with it all the time. And as I said I tried PC games under GPT and some of them perform worse than their Mac counterparts.

You are all right it’s about optimization. That was never the argument.
 
No it is not lmao. Building a PC is literally just adult Lego. All you're doing is inserting pieces into predesignated slots. You can build a very nice midrange system for under $1000, and using sources like PC Part Picker you can find what works and what doesn't, as well as finding where the best prices are. https://pcpartpicker.com/

So long as you don't do what the Verge did, you'll be fine. You have to actually try to screw up building a PC nowadays.


If Henry Cavill can do it, you can too.
Building a PC is a mess. I've built several in the past few years. There are hundreds of cases, motherboards, RAM modules with different specs, etc. to pick from. This choice is good but it is a mess to sort through. PC Part Picker can help a lot but there are still essentially countless configurations. If anything goes wrong, you have to troubleshoot which part isn't working. It is a mess but isn't necessarily difficult if you can follow instructions.

However, there is only a subset of the world's population that would be able to do all the configuration, shopping, and building and have it turn on and work right away. People can learn how to do it but that takes time and money, which many people don't have or are not willing to spend.

If someone doesn't want to deal with this, they can just buy a pre-built system.
 
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Elden Ring released on the same day as the Steam Deck. Literally a day after launch FromSoftware made a tweak in Proton and suddenly the game was now Deck Verified, with many users reporting better performance on Linux through Proton than through Windows. Didn't even need to make a patch to do it, they just did a minor tweak outside the game and now it was perfect.

BHVR Interactive made their smash multiplayer hit Dead by Daylight Deck Verified through a simple Proton tweak too and whitelisting the game on their anticheat. No patch required.

Auroch Digital the creators of Warhammer 40K Boltgun fixed an issue with cutscenes not displaying by just tweaking Proton a tiny bit. Not even needing to release an update, they just tweaked Proton a tiny bit and it was done, not a few days since the bug was reported.

What's the saying again? Work smarter not harder?

I'm seriously starting to doubt your credibility as a "developer" now.

I seriously doubt that “better than windows” claim. The steam deck gets better than a 13900k and a 4090 GPU in performance?
 
If Henry Cavill can do it, you can too.

OIP.gRAOHA82PDr3c154qj4UCAHaE8
Henry Cavil? I thought that was Hugh Jackman in the new Wolverine movie
 
Henry Cavil? I thought that was Hugh Jackman in the new Wolverine movie

Yeah Henry Cavill is a PC gamer. In an interview about the Witcher Netflix series the interviewer asked him if he played on Xbox or PlayStation, and he just said PC. That interview has become a PC Master Race meme now


That photo is from a livestream he did of a fresh PC build

 
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I'm seriously starting to doubt your credibility as a "developer" now.
Can you please cut your attitude? I have been a senior engineer for over 20 years. Anything that impacts the native execution of your app in an inherit hit. Heck this is why I develop some critical items in Assembly or C++. You might be able to find some obscure Windows bug that Linux resolves and gives the illusion it’s “better” but it is in fact not.
 
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We see this proven all the time. Native arm builds of Adobe software perform better than the ones under Rosetta. Factorio had a major boost with their arm build. And as a developer I’m quite aware of this as I deal with it all the time. And as I said I tried PC games under GPT and some of them perform worse than their Mac counterparts.

You are all right it’s about optimization. That was never the argument.
To be fair x86 to ARM is a whole new can of worms, incidentally one that has to be opened for gaming on macOS
If that’s the premise then yeah, native as in ARM+Metal cannot be beat by Rosetta+D3dMetal

But if you were to take the graphics API translation exclusively that wouldn’t require emulation of a CPU architecture and it would be much, much more competitive

I can actually see that as something devs would be willing to do, recompile the game for ARM but keep all the DirectX stuff so it can be translated to Metal on the fly

This is something that’s already been done, with MoltenVK powering many native Mac ports without requiring devs to invest time into writing actual Metal code

Hell, even going further back that’s what many devs did when Apple moved to Intel CPUs back in 2006, 90% of Mac ports were straight up Windows.exe’s packaged with transgaming’s Cider and a bespoke launcher to set graphics options
 
To be fair x86 to ARM is a whole new can of worms, incidentally one that has to be opened for gaming on macOS
If that’s the premise then yeah, native as in ARM+Metal cannot be beat by Rosetta+D3dMetal
Thank you! That was my entire stance on this matter. We are on an Apple discussion about Apple Silicon Mac’s so I thought that was well implied. Apologies for not stating it.
 
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Can you please cut your attitude? I have been a senior engineer for over 20 years. Anything that impacts the native execution of your app in an inherit hit. Heck this is why I develop some critical items in Assembly or C++. You might be able to find some obscure Windows bug that Linux resolves and gives the illusion it’s “better” but it is in fact not.

Do you even use Linux?
 
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Too little, too late... also it feels like they are so unsure about it still, they don't know if they should push real gaming or casual Apple Arcade...

They could start by working with Valve/Steam to make those classic 32 bit incompatible games compatible with modern hardware.. be it paying the developers to update the games or remaking them or ports altogether. (as they have no trouble doing so for old mobile games for Apple Arcade)
 
Thank you! That was my entire stance on this matter. We are on an Apple discussion about Apple Silicon Mac’s so I thought that was well implied. Apologies for not stating it.
Yeah lol, what confused me was when you brought up that Proton benchmark, that made it look like you were talking about graphics translation layers exclusively
 
Why does the idea of a gaming PC make you nauseous? Seems like a bit of an extreme reaction to be honest. But I live in the Windows Gaming PC/Mac Laptop/Linux Server lifestyle, so I have something running all main platforms. I like the Apple Silicon Macs, but I really miss bootcamp something awful. Being able to run full on x86 Windows applications in Windows on a Mac when needed was amazing and truly made the mac the best laptop platform. But now that it's more limited because of the unique architecture I am finding my new laptop less overall usable for more than just basic tasks.
Because i have been a Mac fan boy since my verry own Performa LC475. I would prefer one computer to rule them all. Yes my 2016 MBP was the best with bootcamp. I love my games and would rather not invest in two separate computers one for gaming and another for everything else (that's allot of money even for someone with and above average income) . I hate using windows and everything about it other then for gaming. No i don t prefer a console. So like you mentioned one computer to do all those things what the best solution. For me one computer is what i would aim for.
 
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When was this and what distro with what specs?
We already discussed it. I use exclusively NVIDIA GPUs. And that actually speaks more to AND drivers on the windows side than the fact that something being translated runs better than not. AMD has gotten better for sure, but NVIDIA is still the king of performance on Windows.
 
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