Apple Does Deep Dive Into Security Protections and Risks With Alternative App Marketplaces

[icanhazmac]

I find it interesting that people complain about choice being taken away from them by adding the ability to install apps from other sources.

Can someone clarify how their choice is being taken away if they don’t use it? Is it really a choice being taken away if they have to consciously and actively change their posture?

This has been covered ad nauseam but here we go again:

• It is pretty clear at this point that the store experience will fragment. Apps that are in the Apple App store today, and installed on devices, will move to other stores or be hosted on individual dev sites. This forces the user to abandon the app or join another store or dev site to maintain the app. Users lose the "choice" of a one stop shop.
• When forced to have "accounts" with multiple stores or sites our personal and payment information is put at further risk. Right now everything is handled by Apple's payment processor that has been hacked exactly ZERO times. Users lose the "choice" of having a single, reputable, payment processor managing their data.
• When apps move to other stores it is my opinion that they will cease to have privacy scorecards. Google only implemented them because they felt pressure from consumers when Apple did. Once the stores fragment, watch Google drop them too. Users lose the "choice" to know what data apps are harvesting, in plain English, versus the 50 pages of legalese in the license agreements.
• No more updates to all apps from a single location, one will have to have an app for each store: Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Epic, Steam, Meta, etc. Users again lose the "choice" to have a one stop shop.
• Customer Service - Want to cancel something? Today: call Apple, it gets taken care of immediately. When the stores fragment you need to call dev X and hope they even talk to consumers. Users lose the "choice" to have customer service handled by a single entity.
• App research currently takes place in one, single and uniform place. When the stores fragment we will be reduced to web searching for "crossword puzzle games for iOS" and being a slave to what results are provided. If you are dumb enough to use Google then you get what ever someone paid for you to get. You then need to have each app in a separate tab and try to compare features and looks. Users lose the "choice" to have all app research done in one place.

Personally I would remove myself from this entire discussion if devs were required to maintain a presence in the Apple App store (perhaps as part of the dev agreement) as well as any other store they want, this would solve many people's objections. However, the likes of Epic and Steam will certainly fight for exclusive distribution rights on apps. Larger devs, like Meta, will pull their apps and create their own stores so they own the traffic. Alt-stores are all about redirecting traffic from Apple to the devs own store and site, it will do nothing for consumers except allow porn apps.

 

[Manzanito]

Not having to choose at all is the best thing when the default is the best solution. T
I want 0 choices when it comes to dealing with apps on iOS as long as developers are compelled to be in this one store.

The reason developers shouldn't have any choice, is because a lot of them will make choices which don't benefit me. One obvious choice they might make, is not be in the App Store for one of their apps or not use Apple's payment system.

It's really that simple.

It’s really simple, stick with the provided app store and you’re all set.

Meanwhile, other people get to choose alternate app stores, everybody wins. Your personal preference shouldn’t hinder other people’s freedom to choose.

Also, keep in mind that both apple and the bunch of corporations wanting to set alternate app stores are solely looking for benefits, all that security and privacy arguments on apple camp and freedom of choice on the other camp is just bs.

 

[treacher]

Yeah, and if developers don't like the App Store terms, they can leave! Nobody's forcing them, right? That's the market speaking.

Wait, don't I want all the apps on one store? Why did I just say that? I hope I'm being consistent. Maybe nobody will notice.

 

[AppliedMicro]

they used a line specifically in the EU law to exploit what all these companies are whining about. There is a line that says that Apple is not restricted from charging fees on companies that use third party app stores

👉 Please quote or indicate where that “line” supposedly is in the act.

It's easier to deal with one entity, Apple, when it comes to privacy

You’re making yourself transparent (and dependent!) to a single entity.
Apple can singlehandesly see all of your app purchases and aggregate data on you.
But you clearly love that, cause you support everything they do on iOS.

 

[icanhazmac]

...

I'm not sure what your point is with that response? Are you acknowledging that different people may have different ways of researching apps? Are you acknowledging that perhaps you are an outlier in how you research apps versus the average iOS user?

 

[Beautyspin]

I'm not sure what your point is with that response? Are you acknowledging that different people may have different ways of researching apps? Are you acknowledging that perhaps you are an outlier in how you research apps versus the average iOS user?

For instance, I could search for the best notetaking app in a search engine to get results, or I could ask for suggestions regarding the best note taking apps in a sub-reddit or forums and get recommendations. I still have to search for those apps in the app store to download them. I still cannot see how I can search for "the best notetaking app" (for example) on App Store. If you say you are capable of doing such a search, good for you.

 

[icanhazmac]

For instance, I could search for the best notetaking app in a search engine to get results, or I could ask for suggestions regarding the best note taking apps in a sub-reddit or forums and get recommendations. I still have to search for those apps in the app store to download them. I still cannot see how I can search for "the best notetaking app" (for example) on App Store. If you say you are capable of doing such a search, good for you.

Thanks for clearing that up. We obviously use different paths to reach the same place.

I just open the app store and search on "note taking app" and violà, note taking apps appear. I then look at reviews, screen shots, pricing, IAP, etc. all in one place. I don't rely on Google to tell me what the "best" of anything is, that is pay to play. On occasion I have asked people here for advice but I don't use Reddit or Google.

 

[Beautyspin]

Thanks for clearing that up. We obviously use different paths to reach the same place.

I just open the app store and search on "note taking app" and violà, note taking apps appear. I then look at reviews, screen shots, pricing, IAP, etc. all in one place. I don't rely on Google to tell me what the "best" of anything is, that is pay to play. On occasion I have asked people here for advice but I don't use Reddit or Google.

Yeah. But only apps with "note" in their names, I guess. I use Nebo notes, which suits me. App store would have never surfaced it through regular searches. I got it through some other means. And note taking is the simplest category.

 

[Beyo]

But they side-load apps on Mac.

Side-loading isn't bad. Competition (different stores) isn't bad... unless you're an AAPL shareholder, of course.

Why do we need a "whitepaper" for a basic feature that every other popular modern OS supports (excluding iPadOS lol) ?

Nice try Apple.

Because post like this I seriously think there should be regulation that allows government to shut down MacRumours forums. Such pages should only present news, or detailed articles for people that looking for help using their hardware. not the gossips and spreading false news by bunch of geeks who always think they know better

 

[SoldOnApple]

The notorisation process sounds good actually, if Apple really will approve any app except scams and malware and such. This may pave the way for VR adult content on Vision Pro, and emulators, even drugs like medical cannabis apps. .50 euro a year isn’t all that much to pay for that kind of freedom, I guess more like 1 euro a year after factoring in admin and payment processing costs just to collect the .50 euro.

 

[icanhazmac]

Yeah. But only apps with "note" in their names, I guess. I use Nebo notes, which suits me. App store would have never surfaced it through regular searches. I got it through some other means. And note taking is the simplest category.

That is not true though, I just searched on "note taking" on my phone and to be fair to your point most note taking apps have "note" in their names but some don't such as:

iTranscribe
Notability (Not not Note)
Notion
Craft
Post-it

Actually the one you use, Nebo, doesn't have "note" in it's name, it's called Nebo. It does have it in the description but as far as I can tell it is just called Nebo. What does your app icon say?

 

[Beautyspin]

That is not true though, I just searched on "note taking" on my phone and to be fair to your point most note taking apps have "note" in their names but some don't such as:

iTranscribe
Notability (Not not Note)
Notion
Craft
Post-it

Actually the one you use, Nebo, doesn't have "note" in it's name, it's called Nebo. It does have it in the description but as far as I can tell it is just called Nebo. What does your app icon say?

It has note in the title. Same will be the case for the others too. In any case, I would have missed Nebo Notes, which is what suites my requirement perfectly. I cannot get that unless I search for Nebo Notes.

 

[icanhazmac]

View attachment 2354826


It has note in the title. Same will be the case for the others too. In any case, I would have missed Nebo Notes, which is what suites my requirement perfectly. I cannot get that unless I search for Nebo Notes.

That is not true.

As you can see Nebo came up under a "note taking" search.

Obviously the app store has tags or keywords so that apps can be recognized for what they do if the name doesn't make it clear. Pretty basic search functionality.

 

[MilaM]

I have not installed a single app researched via reddit 🤢🤮 or Google 🤢🤮. I would venture to say that you are an outlier in this instance.

I think this is the norm rather than the exception (outlier). Reviews from independent sites are the only way to get my attention about a new app. I never search for random apps on the app store. It's not only inefficient because of the enormous size of the catalogue, it's also easy to accidentally install a scam app.

 

[icanhazmac]

I think this is the norm rather than the exception (outlier). Reviews from independent sites are the only way to get my attention about a new app. I never search for random apps on the app store. It's not only inefficient because of the enormous size of the catalogue, it's also easy to accidentally install a scam app.

Whelp, shocking, different people do different things. Again, this is a tech site, I would expect that people here might do things differently than the average iOS user.

I have never found the catalog so large as to be unusable, with the exception of some games. Most times that can be managed by a refined search.

I can tell you, granted anecdotally, that many members of my inner circle have never web searched for apps. They either find them on the app store or by word of mouth. Even though I have an extensive tech background I have fallen into the same habits on iOS as I find it easier than the web search method I am forced to employ on my PC/Mac.

 

[MilaM]

Whelp, shocking, different people do different things. Again, this is a tech site, I would expect that people here might do things differently than the average iOS user.

All I'm saying is that app discovery like it used to work in the old days, when everyone was searching the app catalogue for the next cool torch or fart app are over. Tech publications, forums, social media, and word of mouth drive app installs. That is my impression and personal experience.

 

[icanhazmac]

app discovery like it used to work in the old days, when everyone was searching the app catalogue for the next cool torch or fart app are over

I still disagree, that is not my experience at all, but that's ok. Having a tech background I am the "IT Department" for my circle of humans and they most certainly are not doing web or reddit searches. Most wouldn't even know what Reddit is if AITA wasn't part of pop culture now.

Tech publications, forums, social media, and word of mouth drive app installs referrals. That is my impression and personal experience.

Now we are getting someplace.

I will agree with you on the bolded choices above for the average person. IMHO, tech pubs and forums apply to the "geeks" only (geeks meant with love as I count myself one).

 

[ct2k7]

This has been covered ad nauseam but here we go again:

• It is pretty clear at this point that the store experience will fragment. Apps that are in the Apple App store today, and installed on devices, will move to other stores or be hosted on individual dev sites. This forces the user to abandon the app or join another store or dev site to maintain the app. Users lose the "choice" of a one stop shop.
• When forced to have "accounts" with multiple stores or sites our personal and payment information is put at further risk. Right now everything is handled by Apple's payment processor that has been hacked exactly ZERO times. Users lose the "choice" of having a single, reputable, payment processor managing their data.
• When apps move to other stores it is my opinion that they will cease to have privacy scorecards. Google only implemented them because they felt pressure from consumers when Apple did. Once the stores fragment, watch Google drop them too. Users lose the "choice" to know what data apps are harvesting, in plain English, versus the 50 pages of legalese in the license agreements.
• No more updates to all apps from a single location, one will have to have an app for each store: Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Epic, Steam, Meta, etc. Users again lose the "choice" to have a one stop shop.
• Customer Service - Want to cancel something? Today: call Apple, it gets taken care of immediately. When the stores fragment you need to call dev X and hope they even talk to consumers. Users lose the "choice" to have customer service handled by a single entity.
• App research currently takes place in one, single and uniform place. When the stores fragment we will be reduced to web searching for "crossword puzzle games for iOS" and being a slave to what results are provided. If you are dumb enough to use Google then you get what ever someone paid for you to get. You then need to have each app in a separate tab and try to compare features and looks. Users lose the "choice" to have all app research done in one place.

Personally I would remove myself from this entire discussion if devs were required to maintain a presence in the Apple App store (perhaps as part of the dev agreement) as well as any other store they want, this would solve many people's objections. However, the likes of Epic and Steam will certainly fight for exclusive distribution rights on apps. Larger devs, like Meta, will pull their apps and create their own stores so they own the traffic. Alt-stores are all about redirecting traffic from Apple to the devs own store and site, it will do nothing for consumers except allow porn apps.

So let me ask you:

Do you have a choice to not use alternative marketplaces?

Are you forced to use alternative marketplaces?

Do you think applications should be forced to distribute via the App Store if there are other viable alternative (e.g. feature parity) frameworks out there?

Apple’s method of letting me know what data apps are harvesting is based on what the developer is saying. There’s nothing stopping another marketplace from implementing the same. Do you believe that alternative marketplaces are inherently unable to design a few boxes based on developers’ answers to questions?

Some applications may withdraw from Apple’s App Store; that is their business right to do so given they have the means for alternative distribution.

It may have been covered ad nausiem, however, what you’re alluding to is that you are being offended by having a choice, with no choice being taken away. If you want an app that isn’t in the App Store, what do you do? I guess you can’t install it. You can moan to whoever built the app to distribute it via Apple’s App Store.

 

[RalfTheDog]

You’re free not to use it

When you value convenience over innovation, it certainly it.

As for privacy, you’ll be giving up privacy from the OS/store operator - in a big way.

You don't get the point. If you only allow content signed by Apple, you are much less likely to be hit by a zero day attack. If you hit a page that tries to run code from Z mart, you get a warning from the OS that you are running unsigned code. Now lets say, Z mart pays a GRU owned platform to sign their malware. A zero day exploit loads that software when you receive it in a text message. The OS recognizes that the software was signed by Fascists are Us and lets it run.

 

[icanhazmac]

Do you have a choice to not use alternative marketplaces?

Yes, if I want to abandon apps I already own. Yes, if I want to abandon apps I want. Today, thankfully, I do not have to make that choice.

Are you forced to use alternative marketplaces?

No, if I want to abandon apps I already own. No, if I want to abandon apps I want. If I want to keep apps I already own or want I could indeed have my "choice" to get them from the Apple App store taken away.

Do you think applications should be forced to distribute via the App Store if there are other viable alternative (e.g. feature parity) frameworks out there?

Yes, I would like things to stay just the way they are. The one stop shop is unique and I find value in it. I bought into it knowing full well what any limitations were. I wouldn't even be arguing this issue if apps were required to have a presence in the Apple app store as well as be anywhere else they want. Then and only then would I not be losing my "choice".

Apple’s method of letting me know what data apps are harvesting is based on what the developer is saying. There’s nothing stopping another marketplace from implementing the same. Do you believe that alternative marketplaces are inherently unable to design a few boxes based on developers’ answers to questions?

I do not believe that any other store will implement privacy scorecards. It remains to be seen but again, Google didn't want to, they only did it because Apple did. Google thrives on whoring up our data and selling it.

Some applications may withdraw from Apple’s App Store; that is their business right to do so given they have the means for alternative distribution.

It is not their right today and I hope it stays that way. Their right today is to not code for iOS if they don't like the terms. If enough devs refuse to write for iOS then Apple might change, if not then things are working as they should.

It may have been covered ad nausiem, however, what you’re alluding to is that you are being offended by having a choice, with no choice being taken away

I detailed very clearly how my choice to have a one stop shop could be taken away. If alt-stores are legislated into existence then my choice for an all inclusive one stop app store for this ecosystem is taken away.

If you want an app that isn’t in the App Store, what do you do? I guess you can’t install it. You can moan to whoever built the app to distribute it via Apple’s App Store.

So the choice to have all apps in one place, that some of us enjoy today, could be taken away. I shouldn't lose my choice to install an app, things could just stay the way they are. Let the market decide, keep the brainless bureaucrats out of it.

As for your "You can moan" comment, why? Be better. You could have said I can "complain to" or "request of". It never ceases to amaze me how belittling the pro-alt-store crowd can be.


Now, let me ask you:

Do devs have the choice not to write apps for iOS?

Are devs forced to write apps for iOS?

Do other ecosystems that allow alt-stores exist (in the mobile space)?

If Apple is forced to allow alt-stores is there another "walled garden" or "one stop shop" that fans of that approach can go to?

Do all store ecosystems need to be exactly the same? Why not allow a different approach?

 

[Woochoo]

A one stop shop isn't bad either. It is a unique, and sadly, one of a kind model that may get legislated out of existence.

Yes, we all have survived with the PC/Mac app procurement model but does that mean it is the best or that other types of models shouldn't exist? Personally, I wish the walled garden extended to the Mac.

Can’t believe I’m reading having less options for the user is bad for the user. Wanna be safe? Just keep using Appstore nobody forces you to sideload. Oh wait no, there’s scams in the Appstore aswell better don’t use any app so you are safe…

 

[deevey]

Yeah. But only apps with "note" in their names, I guess. I use Nebo notes, which suits me. App store would have never surfaced it through regular searches. I got it through some other means. And note taking is the simplest category.

They probably should not be hyphenating "Note-taking" in both their product name and descriptions if they want the app to show up easier. Nebo DOES show up in an App Store search for the hyphenated variation.

Bad SEO by the developer is not Apples fault.

*They should take some notes 😆😆😆

 

[icanhazmac]

Can’t believe I’m reading having less options for the user is bad for the user. Wanna be safe? Just keep using Appstore nobody forces you to sideload. Oh wait no, there’s scams in the Appstore aswell better don’t use any app so you are safe…

Please reference one single post from me claiming "scams". I have never made that argument. Have you bothered to read any of my posts before taking this stance? I have stated very clearly that I will not be able to "keep using the Apple App store" as so many of you claim, if the stores fragment. It is very possible that a game I own today will all of a sudden be exclusively distributed by the Epic store so to get updates I will need to join Epic or Steam or Meta or Amazon or Microsoft, etc.

Exactly what benefit do you hope to gain from alt-stores? The only one I can think of is Apple can no longer play the moral gatekeeper. I don't like them doing that either but pr0nz apps just aren't that important to me. Prices, to the consumer, will not go down.

 

[MilaM]

Exactly what benefit do you hope to gain from alt-stores?

The benefit will be, that publishers of Apps will have an alternative way to distribute their products. This will put preassure on Apple to keep the App Store competitive. It might result in better terms for developers, more efficient app reviews, maybe better pricing.

Do devs have the choice not to write apps for iOS?

Are devs forced to write apps for iOS?

App publishers don't really have a choice if they don't want to forgo a sizeable share of the market. Also, there are types of apps where not being on either Android or iOS is not feasable at all. I'm thinking about companies that offer a service outside of the app store like financial services, travel, public transport, selling digital media or streaming and numerous others.

 

[JapanApple]

I guess I just don't understand why people who want to side load apps don't buy an Android phone. You buy an iPhone knowing what it is, what you can and can't do with it.

Years of reading stories of how apple doesn’t allow bla bla bla etc. nobody forces them to buy apple items. Knowing is why just use android instead. Years I used hack side loaders to load apps etc on apple devices ( No more do I do it ). I had choice move android but I didn’t.