Apple Does Deep Dive Into Security Protections and Risks With Alternative App Marketplaces

[hans1972]

Oh, and any indie developer gets 1000x more trust from me than Apple. Can’t say the same about big corps, but when I subscribe to something like Day One or buy something like Tot, I’d be much happier knowing that devs received ~97% of my money instead of 70%.

So how many how your important apps from indie developers? I don't think I have any.

I consider developers to be enemies and a clear and present danger unless proven otherwise. That's why I want Apple to act as a shield between developers and myself.

I want to have as little contact with developers as possible and the DMA makes it harder for me to achieve that goal.

 

[JonathanX64]

Lot's of users are technical inapt, can't handle computer security and wants someone else to take care of it. It's why so many non-technical users prefer iOS over Android.

Simplicity and not having to think are to very important features of iOS and iPhones.

I deal with tech and security issues at work. I don't want do deal with in my spare time. I'm quite happy to outsource those things to Apple.

Could Apple do an even better job of treating developers like ****? Yes, but they still do a good job.

Nah, people buy iPhone mostly because it’s considered cool. And because Americans have no idea about real messaging apps.

Tons of people use Android, Windows, Mac (which «supports sideloading», too; I don’t like that term but whatever), and they never have any problems. Many people probably just open Chrome and cycle between Instagram tab and YouTube tab.

 

[hans1972]

I wonder if we'll ever have a thread about iOS lockdown where someone does not devolve to telling folks to "go buy an Android"

Because it's a valid point.

Android phones offer

• more features
• more openness
• side loading + alternative app stores
• more open source
• cheaper
• more variations in hardware
• better hardware
• better applications
• applications which aren't allowed on iOS like emulators
• happier developers
• happier users
• better integration with Windows and Linux
• better integration with Google services

Is there anything iPhones and iOS is better at?

So, why get an iPhone when everything you want is available on Android and is even better implemented?

 

[hans1972]

Tons of people use Android, Windows, Mac (which «supports sideloading», too; I don’t like that term but whatever), and they never have any problems. Many people probably just open Chrome and cycle between Instagram tab and YouTube tab.

And lot's of those people struggle with Windows and even Macs, which is why they love their iPhones and iPads.

It's because iOS isn't like Windows or Macs why many people like it.

How many women do you know wishes that iOS was more like Windows?

 

[JonathanX64]

So how many how your important apps from indie developers? I don't think I have any.

I consider developers to be enemies and a clear and present danger unless proven otherwise. That's why I want Apple to act as a shield between developers and myself.

I want to have as little contact with developers as possible and the DMA makes it harder for me to achieve that goal.

Depends on what we consider indie

I’ve switched from iPhone to Pixel a couple of weeks ago, so I had to move my stuff over from iCloud to some other services. I started using Day One, Todoist, UpNote, Gmail + Spark. Most of these are made by relatively small companies. I have no reasons not to trust them.

 

[hans1972]

So you think I personally am responsible for the law, just because I support it?

You're part of the problem if you're supporting it and taking advantage of it.

 

[hans1972]

When did you last use macOS? Mess around with "root" as much as you like, you cannot touch the system files. That changed ages ago.

macOS has slowly been locked down more and more in the last decade. Why did Apple do that if being open was equally secure as being locked down?

 

[JonathanX64]

And lot's of those people struggle with Windows and even Macs, which is why they love their iPhones and iPads.

It's because iOS isn't like Windows or Macs why many people like it.

How many women do you know wishes that iOS was more like Windows?

Whoa. That’s called sexism.

I’m an extrovert person and know lots of different people. All of them have different preferences. Also I’m Russian. All of us wish to have sideloading on iOS because banking apps are sanctioned by US and not available on the App Store, but easily downloadable on Android directly from official websites.

«why the hell someone tells me what software I can and cannot install on my $1500 computing device» is the least angry thought that I have about this.

 

[hans1972]

iOS is not a Monopoly, but rather one part of a duopoly. Within that part, the AppStore is a Monopoly.

Apple could have avoided this whole thing if they just would have backed down on some of the charges for things like recurring subscriptions. After the original purchase why is my monthly fee to “xxx” or my ebook purchase worth more than than a few small percent as Apple is only acting as a payment handler at this point. More like a PayPal.

All of the app security, review, hosting etc.. is covered by the developer agreement like any other app.

Nope, DMA wasn't created to deal only with Apple but equally with Alphabet, Meta, Microsoft and others.

Android comes in under the DMA, so even if iOS has been like Android, it would have been regulated.

 

[hans1972]

Your choice isn't being taken away whatsoever. You don't want to sideload or get apps from Apple then guess what? You can continue using the App Store all you want.

What if I want to have an app which isn't in the App Store? Now, I would have to make a choice between

• downloading an alternative appstore, registering, giving payment info, dealing with different rules for complaint, getting money back etc. or
• not getting the app

Before:

• just getting the app because the developer had no choice

I liked the way with only one choice.

 

[GroovyCatticus]

xCloud streaming app.

Oops!

Apple introduces new options worldwide for streaming game services and apps that provide access to mini apps and games

 

[Antoniosmalakia]

What if I want to have an app which isn't in the App Store? Now, I would have to make a choice between

• downloading an alternative appstore, registering, giving payment info, dealing with different rules for complaint, getting money back etc. or
• not getting the app

Before:

• just getting the app because the developer had no choice

I liked the way with only one choice

Well you can go without then because things might change.

 

[tobybrut]

When did you last use macOS? Mess around with "root" as much as you like, you cannot touch the system files. That changed ages ago.

Apple added some protections in 10.11 but a bad actor can do all sorts of damage if they were ever to access root and can still take over your system. Apple in their support page warns against using it whenever possible and to turn off root when done with it.

 

[Mousse]

Because a locked down computer in many ways is better especially for non-technical people.

And it's pure garbage for the tech savvy. Is ChromeOS better than Linux? Is iPadOS better than MacOS?

ChromeOS and iPadOS is crippled rubbish in my book. You have this amazing and power kit, yet you hobble it with a crippled OS.🙄

It's like giving the keys of an 500hp M3 to a kid with a learner's permit. A skilled driver in a 140 donkey powered econobox would beat him in a race 99.44% of the time.

 

[Beautyspin]

If you choose to see it that way. I see it as the following:

• Research: all apps are in 1 store so you see them all in one place, in a similar format, with reviews all in one place versus having to web search app types with 1 in each tab to make comparisons.
• Privacy Scorecards: have fun finding these when apps move to alt-stores and are not forced to publish them
• Payment: right now everything goes though Apple, or at least for the most part, and I am not forced to give my name, address and CC info to a hundred different stores/devs that may choose a bargain basement processor that is prone to getting hacked. To the best of my knowledge Apple's payment system has not been hacked.
• Updates: currently all triggered from one place instead of multiple stores or in the individual app
• Customer service: if I have a problem, like canceling, I don't need to call some random dev, I call Apple

Are there things I don't like, there sure are:

• Apple doesn't need to be the moral arbiter of apps, have a 21+ section if that helps you sleep at night. If people want to make weed apps or pr0nz apps then they should be able to do so.

It's not perfect, but I bought into it knowing the limitations. If those limitations become too annoying I will leave, if enough people leave Apple will lose market share and need to adjust their practices, if not then the market has decided. The problem for the "alt-store" crowd is that no one is leaving.

YMMV but choosing to ignore what others find as legitimate benefits of the ecosystem and reducing them to "Apple Greedy" is disingenuous.

There is not a single app that I had installed by searching the AppStore. Every app recommendation has come from subreddits, Google search, or sometimes even through Macrumors forums. I would do well even without the AppStore drama. If the developer can just provide me with a link that leads to an install, I would be more than happy. No need for useless reviews and screenshots in the AppStore.

 

[Mousse]

Having one place to get all the software for a platform it's much better. It's even better when such a platform censor apps and control developers and put certain demands on them.

Any system which treats developers as second class citizens is a superior system when you value convenience and privacy from developers.

Having one App Store for all the software for a platform is extremely convenient. Just one set of rules, one payment method, one method to install, one method to complain, one method to get your money back.

You're making Apple sound more and more like Big Brother from their 1984 Super Bowl commercial.

We have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure ideology—where each worker may bloom, secure from the pests purveying contradictory thoughts. Our Unification of Thoughts is more powerful a weapon than any fleet or army on earth. We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause.

Aesop's fable The Dog and the Wolf. Some folks prefer being the well fed dog. Some folks--like me--prefer being the hungry wolf. Lean freedom is preferable to fat slavery.

 

[Beautyspin]

Then buy into the ecosystem that lets you do that. Don't buy into one that has NEVER allowed it and then **** and moan that it doesn't let you. You knew what you bought into. There was an option that did exactly what you wanted. If I wanted the same fragmented mess as Android, I would go back to Android. Instead, the EU has decided to meddle and ruin a simplified ecosystem that millions of users willingly chose over the other one that is a fragmented mess!

And yes, millions of businesses across the world use Windows. And most if not all of them probably heavily restrict what can be side loaded because it's a risk. That sure sounds like the actual feature and functionality of it is a problem, to me! If the actual feature and functionality is not a problem, then why is it so heavily restricted or advised against on the platforms that already allow it?

People buy into an ecosystem for various reasons. I have bought an iPhone but that does not mean I endorse everything that Apple does. Will you exit the ecosystem if DMA is fully implemented and Apple is broken up into different companies or Apple kowtows to the pressure and becomes open? Seems like the only reason you have chosen Apple ecosystem has evaporated.

 

[Naraxus]

What if I want to have an app which isn't in the App Store? Now, I would have to make a choice between

• downloading an alternative appstore, registering, giving payment info, dealing with different rules for complaint, getting money back etc. or
• not getting the app

Before:

• just getting the app because the developer had no choice

I liked the way with only one choice.

My statement still stands. Your choice whether or not to get the app is still there. Your choice of where you get said app is all that's changed.

You like it with only one choice (which is really no choice at all) but why can't developers enjoy choice and sell where they can get the best ROI?

 

[truthsteve]

But they side-load apps on Mac.

Who said Mac has the same level of security as iPhone?

Apple started Mac as open. Closing it off kills billion dollar businesses

Nice try.

 

[truthsteve]

The day that happens is the day I stop using a Mac. The only way for that to work is if I lose super user privilege and access to the Terminal.

cool, wish other people stopped using iOS and use Android if they really wanted to side load instead of asking for gov intervention.

 

[bollman]

macOS has slowly been locked down more and more in the last decade. Why did Apple do that if being open was equally secure as being locked down?

Ample proof that being able to install software from any source does not have to be inherently dangerous if the operating system has security focus.
It just goes to show that Apple has made wrong desicions on how to secure iOS. It's not a very good strategy to try to limit what gets on the operating system, better to secure it against what could get on the system, you know, like macOS.

 

[bollman]

Apple added some protections in 10.11 but a bad actor can do all sorts of damage if they were ever to access root and can still take over your system. Apple in their support page warns against using it whenever possible and to turn off root when done with it.

Uh, no. The account "root" cannot change system files unless SIP is turned off. And a bad actor cannot turn SIP off in any way from a running macOS. It requires reboot to recovery first.

 

[bollman]

cool, wish other people stopped using iOS and use Android if they really wanted to side load instead of asking for gov intervention.

Had Apple and Google not tried to squeeze every last cent out of their stores, this would've never happened.
Had Apple approved more types of apps on the AppStore, this would've never happened.

No legislative body loves making complicated laws, but if the market is not working correct due to actors on the market, they'll have to step in.

 

[svish]

Article was a good read. It is good to have an option for customers. There are some advantages on downloading the app through App store.

 

[Beautyspin]

The fact that the "spirit" of the law matters more than the "letter" of it...is odd. If the EU wants things done a certain way...then maybe that should be the LETTER of the law. Being able to say "no that's now what we meant", is a bs cop out because the "spirit" of the law can be interpreted differently even amongst those who wrote it!!! Either write the dang law the way you mean for it to be interpreted, or don't complain about loopholes. That is a seriously f'ed up way to govern. But that explains a lot, now that I think of it...

We'll know if Apple has been following the spirit or letter of the law after March 7th. Apple will too.