Apple dropped the ball on this one ...

[TBi]

the original intel macs had intel graphics chips integraged. they are crap and found on the cheapest of the cheap windows PC's.

That's not true. Cheapest of the cheap windows PC's come with VIA or worse chipsets, more than likely with AMD CPU's. Intel computers are generally low-mid range offerings due to the price of the CPU and chipset.

OpenCL needs a good graphics card which means ATI/AMD or Nvidia which have their own software to get the most from their products. Intel just writes a basic driver.

Intel writes good drivers. They just concentrate on making the drivers stable rather than fast. Most people prefer having stable computers than trying to get an extra 2-3FPS on an unstable one. The main problem with intel graphics card is the hardware itself, but it is designed down to a price.

 

[BaldiMac]

My point is - core features that we are to see in Snow Leopard cannot be recognized unless your computer is less than 1.5 years in age. I find that a little disheartening.

That's like saying that you are upset that video chat is not supported in a Mac without a camera.

 

[Spock]

Yes, it will do all that. Of course, you are correct to expect software updates to retroactively fix/update/reinstall/transmorgrophy your hardware.

Now that you have posted this, I'm sure Apple will get right on doing the same thing to all the older Macs as well, so every one else will be able to feel better and calm down.

Y'know, it's funny... people seem to want software to magically upgrade their hardware, so they don't have to buy anything. If that were the case, we'd all still have IIe's. With color screens, quad-cores, BluRay, running SnowLeopard.

The point Mr. Spock made (subtly and well) is that software not only does not upgrade hardware, it also does not render your current hardware suddenly obsolete.



Now if you will excuse me, I just discovered that diamonds are nothing more than carbon. I'm going to go open a bag of charcoal and curse Kingsford for not shipping diamonds instead. They should give me the upgrade...

I'm not sure I could have explained my post any better. Thank you, well said.
On a more serious note, I get angry with Apple making hardware changes as much as the next guy, I got a 13 inch unibody a month before they changed it to the MacBook pro and added the backlit keyboard and fw800 I was upset but realized what appealed to me about the machine still did even after it was replaced. Technology is ever changing my needs are not, I was using a Powerbook G4 before I upgraded to the MacBook and it filled every need I had I still use an iPhone 2G and have no reason to upgrade, it fills my needs as well. My MacBook has the supported video card but my intel iMac does not but I'm still excited to install 10.6 on my "outdated machine" I am going to be very happy Friday.

 

[alent1234]

That's not true. Cheapest of the cheap windows PC's come with VIA or worse chipsets, more than likely with AMD CPU's. Intel computers are generally low-mid range offerings due to the price of the CPU and chipset.



Intel writes good drivers. They just concentrate on making the drivers stable rather than fast. Most people prefer having stable computers than trying to get an extra 2-3FPS on an unstable one. The main problem with intel graphics card is the hardware itself, but it is designed down to a price.

AMD was crap in the 1990's but now is pretty good. the x64 instruction set used by intel and in macbooks was originally developed by AMD which was first to market with a x64 CPU. and for a few years in this decade AMD computers were a lot better and faster and cheaper than Intel.

the Nvidia motherboard chips in Mac's were originally designed for AMD based computers. i don't think Via has made any chipsets for years. all the cheapo laptops i see for $300 - $400 these days all have Intel graphics

 

[gilkisson]

I'm not sure I could have explained my post any better. Thank you, well said.
On a more serious note, I get angry with Apple making hardware changes as much as the next guy, I got a 13 inch unibody a month before they changed it to the MacBook pro and added the backlit keyboard and fw800 I was upset but realized what appealed to me about the machine still did even after it was replaced. Technology is ever changing my needs are not, I was using a Powerbook G4 before I upgraded to the MacBook and it filled every need I had I still use an iPhone 2G and have no reason to upgrade, it fills my needs as well. My MacBook has the supported video card but my intel iMac does not but I'm still excited to install 10.6 on my "outdated machine" I am going to be very happy Friday.

See, you're weird. You use these toys like they were tools or something, instead of the status symbols of success, flashy baubles of coolness, and/or visible evidence of high status in the pack that they really are. Wierdo.

 

[armoguy94]

Past versions of Mac OS 10.x have been pretty much applicable to all of Apple's past computers. Typically, they would introduce revolutionary features or applications, along with enhancing the overall user experience, which could be realized by even older Macs. However, I have to say that I'm disappointed that two core features built into Snow Leopard, will only be realized by computers that are less than one year old when Snow Leopard is launched. Of course, this wouldn't be as big of an issue if Snow Leopard were such a large improvement over Leopard, but it's list of improvements is fairly limited - therefore one would expect these improvements to be available to all.

My $1k+ iMac is LESS than one year old from the SL launch date, was purchased new from the Apple Store online, and is not able to have a 64-bit kernel or OpenCL support!

This thread is funny. To the OP, before you start complaining, you should understand how the underlying hardware works.

You should do some research on CUDA and the AMD Stream engine stuff. Then you will understand why openCL only works on certian cards.

I understand that our cards are not capable of running OpenCL. Thats why I'm angry at Apple for SELLING ME THE DAMN UNCAPABLE CARD less than a YEAR before SL would be released - they KNEW openCL wouldn't support the chip they were selling me but they sold it to me anyways! Sneaky bastards!

 

[alent1234]

what's the big deal about 64 bit support? every CPU intel has made for the last 3 years or so has been 64 bit capable

 

[gilkisson]

My $1k+ iMac is LESS than one year old from the SL launch date, was purchased new from the Apple Store online, and is not able to have a 64-bit kernel or OpenCL support!

And yet, somehow, it retains the value it had when you bought it, doesn't it? It still does those things that inspired you to buy it.

Yes, Apple wants people to buy new hardware. That should be no surprise. They are a computer company, after all. But there has to be a line in the sand, where Apple says, "beyond this point we will not go back." Everybody wants that line to be behind themselves...

Install SL. You *will* experience more efficient processing. Besides, if you ***need*** 64-bit kernel and/or OpenCL to run teraflops/sec, you would have a MacPro, wouldn't you?

The Dodge Challenger is a nice fast car, but it will never win at Darlington or the brickyard, no matter what new things Chrysler comes up with.

 

[SnowLeopard2008]

Past versions of Mac OS 10.x have been pretty much applicable to all of Apple's past computers. Typically, they would introduce revolutionary features or applications, along with enhancing the overall user experience, which could be realized by even older Macs. However, I have to say that I'm disappointed that two core features built into Snow Leopard, will only be realized by computers that are less than one year old when Snow Leopard is launched. Of course, this wouldn't be as big of an issue if Snow Leopard were such a large improvement over Leopard, but it's list of improvements is fairly limited - therefore one would expect these improvements to be available to all.

These two features are the multi-gesture using the trackpad, and the general GPU performance acceleration (OpenCL). One may argue that the new glass trackpad contains hardware that isn't found in older Mac laptops, However, Apple claims that Snow Leopard will enable multi-gesture functionality for computers that previously did not have it, and at one time, were unable to recognize multi-gestures. That said, Apple intentionally disabled multi-gestures on the track pad for "old" (older than one year) Mac laptops in an effort to sell new ones. I could understand if they dropped support for computers 2-3 years or older, but 1 year? That's irresponsible ..

The same applies to GPU's. After researching, Windows 7 is going to support many more video cards that are on the market now, even those that are older. Clearly, this is Apple trying to push new computers out the door.

The longer Apple stays in business, the more I dislike them as a business ..

The plastic MacBooks don't have the hardware. Apple can't magically use software to magically put new hardware into computers.

GPU-acceleration is not OpenCL. OpenCL works with the older 8600M GT GPUs so it does have compatibility over 1 year. GPU-acceleration will have updates I imagine to add support for older GPUs. Apple is not a big company and doesn't have the resources to code and test drivers for all of their previous Macs. They covered the majority, which have the 9400M.

So not only are you wrong in analyzing the information, the information itself is wrong.

 

[alent1234]

The plastic MacBooks don't have the hardware. Apple can't magically use software to magically put new hardware into computers.

GPU-acceleration is not OpenCL. OpenCL works with the older 8600M GT GPUs so it does have compatibility over 1 year. GPU-acceleration will have updates I imagine to add support for older GPUs. Apple is not a big company and doesn't have the resources to code and test drivers for all of their previous Macs. They covered the majority, which have the 9400M.

So not only are you wrong in analyzing the information, the information itself is wrong.

nvidia and ati write drivers for windows where one download has drivers for every product going back 3-5 years. For windows 7 ATI will even let you download a version for laptops where before they didn't have one. i installed WIndows 7 RTM last week and got the updated driver from ATI for my video even though the OS came with one.

what exactly is apple's problem? Dell and HP simply rerelease the OEM drivers they get from nvidia and ATI? sounds like Apple is playing games so you have to run out and buy a new computer

 

[GimmeSlack12]

Clearly, this is Apple trying to push new computers out the door.

The longer Apple stays in business, the more I dislike them as a business ..

Of course they're trying to sell more computers. Does it make sense that they aren't? And the upgrade is $30!!!! That's not a deal to you? I just think people are too selfish sometimes to understand that Apple is doing something unprecedented with this price point. I was sure that SL would be $130 (as usual).

We are being treated well as consumers on this one. The argument that new software won't run on old hardware is a weak weak point to be made. This is how it's always been, and always will be.

 

[camflan]

nvidia and ati write drivers for windows where one download has drivers for every product going back 3-5 years. For windows 7 ATI will even let you download a version for laptops where before they didn't have one. i installed WIndows 7 RTM last week and got the updated driver from ATI for my video even though the OS came with one.

what exactly is apple's problem? Dell and HP simply rerelease the OEM drivers they get from nvidia and ATI? sounds like Apple is playing games so you have to run out and buy a new computer

What all of you are missing is that OpenCL isn't a driver issue. It's a "can this hardware run this NEW set of instructions that we are still in the process of figuring out and standardizing."

Not all chipsets are capable of the same things. Don't blame Apple...

oh, and you are forgetting that VERY few programs will ever use OpenCL, and if you really need one of those programs you already have a computer supported by OpenCL. Don't worry, you won't be missing much, and in about 3 months you will have forgotten.

Get over yourselves, if you want these features - upgrade your hardware. If you really think that you need the VERY small boost in performance from OpenCL (that is, until it comes into it's own and software supports it), either you have the wrong hardware or you don't understand what OpenCL is.

 

[armoguy94]

And yet, somehow, it retains the value it had when you bought it, doesn't it? It still does those things that inspired you to buy it.

Yes, Apple wants people to buy new hardware. That should be no surprise. They are a computer company, after all. But there has to be a line in the sand, where Apple says, "beyond this point we will not go back." Everybody wants that line to be behind themselves...

Install SL. You *will* experience more efficient processing. Besides, if you ***need*** 64-bit kernel and/or OpenCL to run teraflops/sec, you would have a MacPro, wouldn't you?

The Dodge Challenger is a nice fast car, but it will never win at Darlington or the brickyard, no matter what new things Chrysler comes up with.

I'm afraid, sir, that you don't know what good customer service is. And by the way, Apple does not support a 64-bit kernel for MacPro1,1 machines, although they were advertised as "64-bit workstations". This is false advertising, probably the worst thing that a company could do.


And again: Apple knew OpenCL would be in Snow Leopard. Apple knew they were selling incompatible hardware for it at the time. Apple didn't care. It's idiotic for someone who purchased an incompatible product from Apple to NOT be angry, and to NOT do something.

 

[AntonDK]

Grand Central Dispatch

Have you forgotten about GCD?
As i see it, this will be a huge upgrade OS-vise, even for those Macs that does not support Open CL because of an unsupported GPU. (Assuming they have dual core though)

Let's not forget about that guys.

 

[OldCorpse]

Apple sells computers that are not capable of taking full advantage of their OS, all the time.

For example, when SL comes out Friday, you can buy a mac mini even a month later, with SL pre-installed, and it won't be able to run 64bit software etc. among many other disadvantages. So, right there, you have a brand new desktop computer from Apple that can't run their current OS fully.

 

[Dwalls90]

The plastic MacBooks don't have the hardware. Apple can't magically use software to magically put new hardware into computers.

That point was never contested, I was purely going by what was said: "All of Apple's notebooks introduced since 2008, beginning with the original MacBook Air, have included Multi-Touch trackpad capabilities, but many of the early models have been unable to take advantage of newer four-finger gestures, a limitation that will be removed in OS X Snow Leopard.
"

GPU-acceleration is not OpenCL. OpenCL works with the older 8600M GT GPUs so it does have compatibility over 1 year. GPU-acceleration will have updates I imagine to add support for older GPUs. Apple is not a big company and doesn't have the resources to code and test drivers for all of their previous Macs. They covered the majority, which have the 9400M.

OpenCL = using the GPU to accelerate normally other CPU only tasks, to take the load off of the CPU. And a big LOL to Apple being a small company. It would not take that long to code a few extra video cards. Apple may not be as big as Microsoft, but they're bigger than Google .. and that says something.

Oh and great, the 8600M GT - the biggest FAIL in GPU history. In addition, Windows 7 will enable OpenCL across far more GPU's, including those that are older than the Nvidia 8 series. Apple is intentionally not enabling older cards. This project has been underway since BEFORE Leopard, hence we even saw some GPU acceleration in non-GPU related applications on cards OTHER than Apple has listed.

So not only are you wrong in analyzing the information, the information itself is wrong.

No, I based my post on what Apple has published in their list of features for Snow Leopard. Your post, such as "Apple will probably publish a patch with GPU acceleration or OpenCL support for older GPU's" is false information - because first off, it won't happen, and secondly, even if it did it's unverified at the moment.

 

[BaldiMac]

For example, when SL comes out Friday, you can buy a mac mini even a month later, with SL pre-installed, and it won't be able to run 64bit software etc. among many other disadvantages.

Why won't a new Mac Mini be able to run 64-bit software?

 

[Dunnart]

Ahem

Thanks for that r.j.s. I based my comment on the fact that Leopard no longer appears in the Apple Store on their websites.

 

[BaldiMac]

That point was never contested, I was purely going by what was said: "All of Apple's notebooks introduced since 2008, beginning with the original MacBook Air, have included Multi-Touch trackpad capabilities, but many of the early models have been unable to take advantage of newer four-finger gestures, a limitation that will be removed in OS X Snow Leopard.

You are missing the reference. "Early models" refers to early models of all Apple notebooks introduced since since 2008. Only notebooks introduced since since 2008 contain a multitouch trackpad.

It would not take that long to code a few extra video cards.

I always laugh at comments like this one. The poster has no idea how long it would take to code support for the extra video cards into their OpenCL implementation and no idea why Apple chose to not do so.

 

[Krafty]

Why won't a new Mac Mini be able to run 64-bit software?

It will.

 

[Dwalls90]

You are missing the reference. "Early models" refers to early models of all Apple notebooks introduced since since 2008. Only notebooks introduced since since 2008 contain a multitouch trackpad.



I always laugh at comments like this one. The poster has no idea how long it would take to code support for the extra video cards into their OpenCL implementation and no idea why Apple chose to not do so.

The language is what took so long to develop. To support additional video cards is not that difficult. Especially when you consider many cards are the same core, just with a die-shrink, and many cards use the same drivers. So yes, if Apple is going to code some cards, they damn well should code at least those that have been used since Intel has been the CPU supplier.

 

[BaldiMac]

The language is what took so long to develop. To support additional video cards is not that difficult. Especially when you consider many cards are the same core, just with a die-shrink, and many cards use the same drivers.

Okay. Then why didn't they do it?

And that's assuming your information is correct that it's trivial to add support for additional cards. What makes you think that their implementation of OpenCL would work on the older cards? What makes you think that the performance benefits that these cards would give through Apple's implementation of OpenCL would be significant enough for Apple to take the time to add the support?

So yes, if Apple is going to code some cards, they damn well should code at least those that have been used since Intel has been the CPU supplier.

Why?

 

[shrimpdesign]

... when SL comes out Friday, you can buy a mac mini even a month later, with SL pre-installed, and it won't be able to run 64bit software etc. among many other disadvantages.

Weird. I just looked on Apple's site which states the Mac Mini currently uses the Core 2 Duo (which is 64-bit). Not to mention it's graphics card is the NVIDIA GeForce 9400M, which is supported by OpenCL.

So exactly what are you referring to?

 

[runebinder]

In addition, Windows 7 will enable OpenCL across far more GPU's, including those that are older than the Nvidia 8 series. Apple is intentionally not enabling older cards. This project has been underway since BEFORE Leopard, hence we even saw some GPU acceleration in non-GPU related applications on cards OTHER than Apple has listed.

Question, where do you get your info for Win 7 implementing Open CL from? First I have heard of that, just had a search on Google and could only find one reference, which basically said MS would be able to use it if they wanted as it's open source. No confirmation anywhere they intend to, would be odd as well considering MS are usually strongly against open source.

 

[alent1234]

Question, where do you get your info for Win 7 implementing Open CL from? First I have heard of that, just had a search on Google and could only find one reference, which basically said MS would be able to use it if they wanted as it's open source. No confirmation anywhere they intend to, would be odd as well considering MS are usually strongly against open source.

DirectX 11 is coming out soon and it will support almost every GPU going back 3-5 years.