Apple dropped the ball on this one ...

[camflan]

DirectX 11 is coming out soon and it will support almost every GPU going back 3-5 years.

Holy balls, does anyone actually understand OpenCL?

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GRAPHICS!!! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OpenGL, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DirectX.

Please pull your heads out of your asses and read some information about OpenCL, then quit complaining. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL

You purchased hardware when it was right for you based on the current merits of the device. Future upgrades that will improve your hardware, but not quite as much as it improves CURRENT hardware, is STILL an upgrade. Think of it as helping you extend the life of your machine for a low cost.

Some people are allergic to reason and sense.

 

[gilkisson]

I'm afraid, sir, that you don't know what good customer service is. And by the way, Apple does not support a 64-bit kernel for MacPro1,1 machines, although they were advertised as "64-bit workstations". This is false advertising, probably the worst thing that a company could do.[\QUOTE]

Good customer service? Great furry wowzers, man. Are you seriously accusing Apple of giving you bad service because the stuff they sold you worked exactly as they said it would, and did the things they told you it would, and fulfilled the reasons you bought it! Great god, man! You made a deal! I'll give you x amount of money, you give me a computer which will do what I want it to do NOW. THAT VERY DAY!

How in the name of sweet Fannie Adams is that false advertising?

And again: Apple knew OpenCL would be in Snow Leopard. Apple knew they were selling incompatible hardware for it at the time. Apple didn't care. It's idiotic for someone who purchased an incompatible product from Apple to NOT be angry, and to NOT do something.

Dude. Sell your iMac. Bail out. You have an axe to grind that Paul Bunyan could not swing. If you feel that Apple should have stopped selling hardware a freaking year ago, in order to wait for an OS update that wasn't even fully specced out at that point, let alone written...

Be mad. Do something. Go get 'em, tiger. Good luck. You are tilting against the windmills, and the only target is in your mind. Good luck.

 

[runebinder]

DirectX 11 is coming out soon and it will support almost every GPU going back 3-5 years.

DirectX 11 is not Open CL, it's not even open source software.

 

[Dwalls90]

Question, where do you get your info for Win 7 implementing Open CL from? First I have heard of that, just had a search on Google and could only find one reference, which basically said MS would be able to use it if they wanted as it's open source. No confirmation anywhere they intend to, would be odd as well considering MS are usually strongly against open source.

Open Source doesn't mean it won't work. Nvidia's CUDA is not Mac exclusive.

Here is one of many articles. Oh, and for the record, Microsoft IS calling it DX11.

 

[AGSHender]

Open Source doesn't mean it won't work. Nvidia's CUDA is not Mac exclusive.

Here is one of many articles. Oh, and for the record, Microsoft IS calling it DX11.

FTA:

"This is where OpenCL (Open Computing Language) comes in. OpenCL is a programming environment for "heterogeneous" computing. That is, computers using a mix of multicore CPUs and GPUs. Microsoft's analogous programming environment is DirectX."

That goes against everything I know about DirectX and OpenCL. They need to clarify and say "Microsoft's analogous programming environment will be DirectX 11." Which, I might add, isn't out yet and nobody's programming for anyway. And contrary to your belief, DirectX11's OpenCL-like abilities won't magically unlock power of old nVidia and ATI graphics chips. You still need a relatively recent model to get any benefit.

 

[alent1234]

the difference is that all Mac's of the last 2 years have had essentially the same hardware choices and it seems like Apple is using software to segment the market. the new cards coming out soon will be DX 11 cards, but a lot of features will be supported on old cards.

It's like when nvidia bought ageia. they killed off the discrete cards and took their software and integrated it into their drivers and all their cards that had been on the market for a year or two were able to take advantage of the new features

 

[alent1234]

Holy balls, does anyone actually understand OpenCL?

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GRAPHICS!!! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OpenGL, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DirectX.

Please pull your heads out of your asses and read some information about OpenCL, then quit complaining. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL

You purchased hardware when it was right for you based on the current merits of the device. Future upgrades that will improve your hardware, but not quite as much as it improves CURRENT hardware, is STILL an upgrade. Think of it as helping you extend the life of your machine for a low cost.

Some people are allergic to reason and sense.

your own article says that OpenCL accelerates Havok which is a competitor to PhysX

 

[wilycoder]

your own article says that OpenCL accelerates Havok which is a competitor to PhysX

I have seen OpenCL running havok with my own eyes at GDC 2009.

 

[sidewinder]

You guys are missing camflan's point. OpenCL is not a graphics standard. Using OpenCL, any type of processing may be run on OpenCL compliant processors. This could include game code, rendering, data processing, video encoding, etc.

Could OpenCL be used in place of OpenGL or DirectX? Sure. But it is a general purpose architecture.

S-

 

[Infrared]

Holy balls, does anyone actually understand OpenCL?

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GRAPHICS!!! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OpenGL, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DirectX.

DirectX 11 features DirectCompute. That is an OpenCL alternative, apparently.

 

[SHIFTLife]

Who's to say it's a hardware limitation? If the trackpad can recognize two fingers, surely Apple could find a way to integrate four fingers. Of course they won't.

Of course they won't. If the hardware is built to recognize 2 fingers, no amount of software will change that. You clearly do not understand the difference between hardware and software development. That statement is is like saying surely ExxonMobil could figure out how to fit 4 more cylinders into your Honda's 4-banger.

This isn't the same. Cutting off support to computers that are 3-4 years old, and beginning to screw over models that are over a year old, is ridiculous. When Leopard was released, the G4 chip was just about 8 years old. We're talking totally different scenarios.

Apple isn't "screwing over" any owner of newer hardware. If they can't provide a feature due to a limitation of older "new" hardware, they can't provide it. Simple as that. Get over it. Hardware advances by leaps and bounds over the course of a year. A graphics card that was produced a year ago isn't nearly as fast as something that is being produced today. If the NVidia card doesn't support OpenCL, they can't offload processing to that card. Again, not something that apple could "surely" find a solution for.

As it should be, that point was never contested. But if you're providing small updates, they should be granted to all customers across the board. You're telling me that if I don't own one of those GPU's, and my computer isn't a 2008+ model, that I'm better off not buying Snow Leopard? Because that's how it's sounding right about now.

So you don't have a supported GPU. Grand Central Dispatch's improved use of multicore machines isn't worth it to you? Surely you have a multicore machine if you're complaining about 2008 hardware owners getting the shaft. That alone is worth $29 to me. Suck it up.

I'm a customer that doesn't want to be screwed over, not an idiot who would ever consider Windoze.

Come on. Windoze? That was cool back in the Windows 3.1 and Windows 95 days. Time to upgrade your hatin'.

 

[SHIFTLife]

I understand that our cards are not capable of running OpenCL. Thats why I'm angry at Apple for SELLING ME THE DAMN UNCAPABLE CARD less than a YEAR before SL would be released - they KNEW openCL wouldn't support the chip they were selling me but they sold it to me anyways! Sneaky bastards!

They didn't sell you the computer, you bought the cheap model. You could have spent more and had one that is compatible. After all, it's not like Apple's hardware is expensive or anything

 

[SnowLeopard2008]

nvidia and ati write drivers for windows where one download has drivers for every product going back 3-5 years. For windows 7 ATI will even let you download a version for laptops where before they didn't have one. i installed WIndows 7 RTM last week and got the updated driver from ATI for my video even though the OS came with one.

what exactly is apple's problem? Dell and HP simply rerelease the OEM drivers they get from nvidia and ATI? sounds like Apple is playing games so you have to run out and buy a new computer

So? SL still installs and works fine on older GPUs as long as it is Intel-based. The new features (OpenCL, GPU-acceleration, etc.) only works on support hardware. The first MacBook will be able to run SL as an OS. That was maybe 3+ years ago?

Apple sells computers that are not capable of taking full advantage of their OS, all the time.

For example, when SL comes out Friday, you can buy a mac mini even a month later, with SL pre-installed, and it won't be able to run 64bit software etc. among many other disadvantages. So, right there, you have a brand new desktop computer from Apple that can't run their current OS fully.

Yes it will. My friend who has one for his media center is using the GM build until he receives his SL upgrade disc. He bought that Mini just this summer. Name one real example, not a fake or pulled out of your behind example.

That point was never contested, I was purely going by what was said: "All of Apple's notebooks introduced since 2008, beginning with the original MacBook Air, have included Multi-Touch trackpad capabilities, but many of the early models have been unable to take advantage of newer four-finger gestures, a limitation that will be removed in OS X Snow Leopard.
"



OpenCL = using the GPU to accelerate normally other CPU only tasks, to take the load off of the CPU. And a big LOL to Apple being a small company. It would not take that long to code a few extra video cards. Apple may not be as big as Microsoft, but they're bigger than Google .. and that says something.

Oh and great, the 8600M GT - the biggest FAIL in GPU history. In addition, Windows 7 will enable OpenCL across far more GPU's, including those that are older than the Nvidia 8 series. Apple is intentionally not enabling older cards. This project has been underway since BEFORE Leopard, hence we even saw some GPU acceleration in non-GPU related applications on cards OTHER than Apple has listed.



No, I based my post on what Apple has published in their list of features for Snow Leopard. Your post, such as "Apple will probably publish a patch with GPU acceleration or OpenCL support for older GPU's" is false information - because first off, it won't happen, and secondly, even if it did it's unverified at the moment.

That is the biggest fail in the tech world. Google is roughly the same size as Microsoft. And even if Apple was bigger than Google, it doesn't say anything except that the fact that you are completely wrong and pulling random bs out of your behind. Google is a software company while Apple is a computer/consumer electronics company.

Early models don't necessarily mean ALL EARLY MODELS. They meant the pre-uMBPs that couldn't use 3/4 finger gestures. The last generation of pre-uMBPs had 3 finger gestures. The generation before that had the SAME trackpad hardware but didn't have it enabled. Those MBPs will not get 3/4 finger gestures in SL.

Windows doesn't even HAVE OpenCL yet. Show me an example before pulling more crap out of your behind. So far, you committed the biggest fail in the tech world, calling Apple bigger than Google.

The GPU-acceleration I'm talking about is the H.264 GPU-acceleration. OpenCL IS NOT that same concept of GPU-acceleration. The GPU is being used as another CPU, not just accelerating the instruction sets but actually computing them like a CPU would.

Yea, that's why I said "will probably". Because it's unverified.

Sorry, but this guy is just running around in small circles yelling about information he got from a 2 year old.

The language is what took so long to develop. To support additional video cards is not that difficult. Especially when you consider many cards are the same core, just with a die-shrink, and many cards use the same drivers. So yes, if Apple is going to code some cards, they damn well should code at least those that have been used since Intel has been the CPU supplier.

You basically are saying all graphics cards should have new drivers whether or not they have the capability to use the newer features like OpenCL. You can do that, but your company would be out of business real soon. Not all the cards since the switch to Intel are compatible with the new features SL offers. Apple went ahead and covered the majority of those cards and are probably (unverified) going to post new updates for other cards as we go along.



I remember someone mentioning the first generation of Mac Pros not being 64-bit. They are but at that time, there were no chipsets that were 64-bit. Since the CPU was 64-bit, and CPUs are the heart of a computer, it was accurate to say that the Mac Pro was a 64-bit workstation. You could run 64-bit applications and still can.

 

[runebinder]

Open Source doesn't mean it won't work. Nvidia's CUDA is not Mac exclusive.

Here is one of many articles. Oh, and for the record, Microsoft IS calling it DX11.

That still does not make it Open CL, it's a direct competitor. The first post I questioned you on was because you stated "Windows 7 will enable OpenCL across far more GPU's"

If MS built DirectX 11 directly on Open CL that would make Direct X open source, Linux distros and OS X would be able to use it. One of the things that sets Windows apart is the gaming side due to Direct X, do you really think they'd be that stupid to give that advantage away?

 

[roadbloc]

I think we can all safely say there is a lot of confusion about this new version of OS X. It's in my opinion that its just a refined version of 10.5, another excuse for a product, try and beat windows 7 (which is just a refined version of *shudders* vista).

Were just pawns in a giant game of chess.

All i can say is that at least it's cheap.

 

[Nebulator]

And you're right, Snow Leopard isn't a super big release, that's the point, it's a small tidy update to a already decent OS. That's why it's $29.

Christ, I swear some people refuse to be satisfied. If you can't stand paying $29 for Snow Leopard, go pay $220 for the Windows 7 Ultimate upgrade, or $320 (are you freaking kidding me?!) for the standalone version...

Now I refuse to feed the troll anymore.

Sorry to restart the fire, but in the UK its £25 or $40, and whats more I believe it amounts to what MS call a service pack which they give out for free (or no added cost).

To compare it to Windows 7 is like comparing apples and oranges (excuse the pun). Windows 7 is an much improved OS - mainly because Vista bombed so much. SL is a very small improvement, and I believe Apple recognize this as they are not charging much and expect its loyal fans (and I use the word fans rather than users), will happily pay the cash.

I don't think Apple are using activation codes because they cannot be bothered chasing users or setting up the activation servers etc; as a minor update, any cash they get from it is a bonus for them.

Nebs

 

[Luis Ortega]

The trackpad gestures are for all MacBook models, and OpenCL should work on any video card on an Intel Mac.

Track pad enhancements did not work for my santa rosa MBP bought in 2007.

 

[ComicStix]

Well I have a theory that they actually made it not check machines so the rumor would spread and more Tiger users WOULD upgrade to Snow Leopard.

 

[BaldiMac]

Sorry to restart the fire, but in the UK its £25 or $40, and whats more I believe it amounts to what MS call a service pack which they give out for free (or no added cost).

You believe it amounts to a MS service pack? Any justification or just faith? The only Microsoft service packs that were nearly as substantial as Snow Leopard were Windows XP SP2 and Windows Vista SP1. Both of these SPs were to fix crippling problems in the OS. That is why they were free.

As far as whether it's "worth" $29 or £25, how much does it cost to add Exchange support to Windows 7 after you have already paid to upgrade to Windows 7?

 

[Dwalls90]

So? SL still installs and works fine on older GPUs as long as it is Intel-based. The new features (OpenCL, GPU-acceleration, etc.) only works on support hardware. The first MacBook will be able to run SL as an OS. That was maybe 3+ years ago?

As it should, computers 5 years old (PPC) aren't able to run SL, and Apple would be shooting themselves in the foot if they are going to stop supporting computers 3 years old. I don't know about you, but I buy my Macs every 4-5 years, as I can't afford to dump a few grand on such an investment each year (as a college student).

That is the biggest fail in the tech world. Google is roughly the same size as Microsoft. And even if Apple was bigger than Google, it doesn't say anything except that the fact that you are completely wrong and pulling random bs out of your behind. Google is a software company while Apple is a computer/consumer electronics company.

I was talking size in terms of worth, since in the business world, size IS money. Google that. Also, Apple is definitely more in the software field than hardware field, though still a participant in both. That said, did you not read the articles regarding recent Apple and Google relations? That outlines how competitive the two companies are becoming even right now.

Early models don't necessarily mean ALL EARLY MODELS. They meant the pre-uMBPs that couldn't use 3/4 finger gestures. The last generation of pre-uMBPs had 3 finger gestures. The generation before that had the SAME trackpad hardware but didn't have it enabled. Those MBPs will not get 3/4 finger gestures in SL.

I'm only going by what Apple said, they said "Early Macbook Pros". We were supposed to know that was referring to 2008, I guess. Pretty smart marketing inaccuracy if you ask me, though I'm over gestures because I've lived without them for years, and nothing is groundbreaking enough for my needs.

Windows doesn't even HAVE OpenCL yet. Show me an example before pulling more crap out of your behind. So far, you committed the biggest fail in the tech world, calling Apple bigger than Google.

That's because Windows 7 isn't OUT yet.

he GPU-acceleration I'm talking about is the H.264 GPU-acceleration. OpenCL IS NOT that same concept of GPU-acceleration. The GPU is being used as another CPU, not just accelerating the instruction sets but actually computing them like a CPU would.

Thank you, I'm sure everyone understands now.

Sorry, but this guy is just running around in small circles yelling about information he got from a 2 year old.

Troll much?

You basically are saying all graphics cards should have new drivers whether or not they have the capability to use the newer features like OpenCL. You can do that, but your company would be out of business real soon. Not all the cards since the switch to Intel are compatible with the new features SL offers. Apple went ahead and covered the majority of those cards and are probably (unverified) going to post new updates for other cards as we go along.

Not ALL of the cards since the switch to Intel, but more than they have included in SL. That said, why would one be out of business? Typically you have to write separate drivers for each product you release, or at least each line or series. This is how it's been in the past.

 

[BaldiMac]

As it should, computers 5 years old (PPC) aren't able to run SL, and Apple would be shooting themselves in the foot if they are going to stop supporting computers 3 years old.

How are they shooting themselves in the foot?

I'm only going by what Apple said, they said "Early Macbook Pros". We were supposed to know that was referring to 2008, I guess. Pretty smart marketing inaccuracy if you ask me, though I'm over gestures because I've lived without them for years, and nothing is groundbreaking enough for my needs.

How were you supposed to know? Basic reading comprehension. When you see a phrase like "the early models" you think "of what?" Then you scan a little earlier in the sentence to find the reference.

I explained it to you here.
https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/8357772/

That's because Windows 7 isn't OUT yet.

Yes. It is. It just has been released for retail distribution yet. Enterprise and other customers have had the final version for weeks.