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I don't quite understand Apple these days… They used to be mavericks in the realm of supporting the widest range of their products. (See what I did thar.. ;) )

Nowadays they drop support for software and hardware within a year or two of its release.

Again, this will not affect older MPs that already have 7 installed, but how about when 10.10 ships? Will that break the support for existing installs?

No. Unless they some how prevented it from working through Firmware. There's nothing joining Windows and OS X together to allow that to happen.
 
Is Apple doing MS a favour by forcing people to upgrade?

It is more so not doing favors for people by writing drivers for older OS versions for free. Apple drops support for old Apple hardware and OS X also.

It is a subset of folks who need to run Windows. Windows on a lowest-common-denominator virtual machine is a non issue. It is only the "max speed on 'raw' hardware' folks that have major legacy OS problems.


Perhaps MS is creating more office apps for Apple hardware in return?

The new 'free' OneNote aside ( a tickler to drive up One drive storage usage. ), MS makes money off of selling Office Apps. Lots of money.
Selling OS X and iOS apps isn't a money looser that has to be offset by higher Windows sales.


Apart from that I don't understand all the fuss, most people that occasionally need Windows will use VMware or Parallels or similar, and if you really need to constantly boot into Windows only, well, get a PC!

The "fuss" level generally has little to do with the sub-market segmentation size. It isn't necessarily constantly boot into Windows. A subsegment that is in Windows only 10-15% of the time probably doesn't really need yet another box.

A large segment of the highly vocal hackintosh crowd will weigh in even though had no intention of buying of Mac Pro at all. It is mac rumors... folks complain when the sky is blue.
 
..... maybe they were embarrassed by how many people were buying their machines just to run Windows...

Apple is embarrassed or perplexed? The number of folks who buy Macs solely to run Windows isn't that large. If those folks disappear I doubt Apple will loose any sleep at night. They will take the incrementally extra money, but they are not targeting those folks. For optimal Windows conformity, Apple isn't the best vendor. That doesn't change with this new Mac Pro.

Bootcamp is intended to more so be scaffolding to help people 'quit'. Full time is like shifting heroin addicts full time to another opiate.

A much larger segment of the Mac market folks who need to run Windows "all the time" also need to run OS X at the same time. Bootcamp isn't a very effective solution for them. As Intel incrementally improves hardware vitalization speeds ( IOMMU , vexit reduction times , etc. ) and RAM gets cheaper the folks who need 'raw' Windows isn't growing much (if not shrinking).
 
re: downgrade rights

Could you elaborate on these "downgrade rights"?

I'm genuinely curious because I have to admit I haven't played around a lot with this yet. I know in the past, when I purchased a machine with Windows 7 on it but needed it to run XP Pro instead, the machines that made it possible were ones (such as the "house brand" sold by Micro Center stores) that included DVD media for both a Windows 7 and a Windows XP Pro restore/recovery image. The correct OEM CD keys were already embedded in configuration files with the media, so they'd install seamlessly without prompting you to manually key in a CD key.

By contrast, if we purchased a system with Windows 7 on it that didn't come with XP Pro re-installation media, or a second XP license key code on a sticker affixed to the computer someplace? Downgrading it was a real problem.....

It always seemed to me that despite Microsoft officially publishing claims that "downgrades" are allowed from certain Windows releases to other older releases -- it's still not always possible to do as a practical matter. I'm thinking if you weren't supplied with a Windows 7 CD key code to use, you're still stuck with Windows 8?


Image[/IMG]

These will use the user's existing license key.
 
Care to explain Apple? Seriously people don't drop $3,000+ on computers so you can weed out the features you're too lazy to support. This pisses me off.

Honestly, I don't understand why would someone need a bootcamp on the mac pro:confused:
I think VM can fulfill all the windows needs...
Anyway, if someone need a windows workstation they don't buy a Mac, right?
 
Honestly, I don't understand why would someone need a bootcamp on the mac pro:confused:

"....
For Inventor 2014 Mac® users

On Boot Camp®:
.... "
http://knowledge.autodesk.com/suppo...ents-for-Autodesk-Inventor-2014-products.html

Not mentioning Bootcamp explicitly for Revit or 3Ds Max but similar mindset of "We ported to Mac [hardware] ... it runs in Bootcamp and virtual machine mode" for a subset of Autodesk products.

The higher end of the workstation market go (i.e., smaller volume) then increasingly get that attitude. "Maybe we'll certify Windows running on Apple hardware" stanc.

For folks who are primarily are going to use one piece of software that only runs in Windows.... yes.

I think VM can fulfill all the windows needs...

if push large complex 3D models at a virtual GPU, tend ot run out of steam quicker than if app is just talking 'raw' to the GPU.


Anyway, if someone need a windows workstation they don't buy a Mac, right?

A mix of applications would add value to having a Mac. But yes, if want exclusively Windows almost full time, there is not a big value proposition for a Mac solution.
 
It is a subset of folks who need to run Windows....

...It isn't necessarily constantly boot into Windows. A subsegment that is in Windows only 10-15% of the time probably doesn't really need yet another box.

A large segment of the highly vocal hackintosh crowd will weigh in even though had no intention of buying of Mac Pro at all. It is mac rumors... folks complain when the sky is blue.

If people would read the original post and the associated apple support doc, they would know that de-support of windows 7 is only applicable to one mac - the mac pro. All the current Macbook Airs, Macbook Pros, Mac Minis and iMacs will continue to allow bootcamp installs of windows 7.

So when you say subset, you are talking about the people who bought or are planning to buy the new mac pro. And of those people the fraction who have need to boot into windows (virtual is not sufficient) and windows 8 just will not cut it.

So put another way, about 4 people are affected.

But I guess it wouldn't be any fun if all manner of ill informed people didn't show up to macrumors proclaiming the end of the world due to Apple not satisfying the most corner of corner cases.
 
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If people would read the original post and the associated apple support doc, they would know that de-support of windows 7 is only applicable to one mac - the mac pro. All the current Macbook Airs, Macbook Pros, Mac Minis and iMacs will continue to allow bootcamp installs of windows 7.

For now. Given the Mac Pro 2013 pragmatically arrived in 2014 (clearly post Windows 8.1 release) so there is high likelihood that it is just the first of the 2014 line up to go Win 8 only. I don't think the Mac Pro is being singled out primarily just because it is a Mac Pro. It is simply the first "2014" model to show up.

The Windows retirements in Bootcamp are far more likely coupled by the arrival rate of new Windows versions than on specific Mac models. Windows 8 came out in Q2 2012. 8.1 in Q3 2013. On Apple's cadence that is a while back. The number of Win8 users is 40% larger than OS X users. So supporting Win8 is targeting more users than are on OS X (all versions; not just 10.9).


If look at the charts, that BootCamp version n+1 almost always chops off some older, more broader legacy adopted, version of Windows. Look at the 4 -> 5 transitions in the matrices on the support page.

So when you say subset, you are talking about the people who bought or are planning to buy the new mac pro.

When OS X 10.10 comes and Bootcamp 6 shows up Win 7 64 is likely just as retired as the 32-bit versions of Windows were retired from Bootcamp 5.


And of those people the fraction who have need to boot into windows (virtual is not sufficient) and windows 8 just will not cut it.

So put another way, about 4 people are affected.

It is likely more than 4. Probably near the single digit thousands but normalized against 12M Macs per year not a whole lot. When it spreads across the whole 2014 line up it likely to grow to multiples of those thousands but still normalize to probably a less than single digit percentage.


But I guess it wouldn't be any fun if all manner of ill informed people didn't show up to macrumors proclaiming the end of the world due to Apple not satisfying the most corner of corner cases.

I agree it is not an "end of the world" issue , but this really isn't a "new" issue either. It was highly masked when MS was 'stuck' on XP for an abnormally long amount of time. Once they are moving at normal upgrade pace Apple retirement pace is going to match.
 
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For now. Given the Mac Pro 2013 pragmatically arrived in 2014 (clearly post Windows 8.1 release) so there is high likelihood that it is just the first of the 2014 line up to go Win 8 only. I don't think the Mac Pro is being singled out primarily just because it is a Mac Pro. It is simply the first "2014" model to show up.

Could be. But today's news is, "new mac pros do not support Windows 7." Not, "Apple no longer supports Windows 7 on any macs."

It would be hard to argue that at some point in the future, support for windows 7 will disappear. Whether that is 2014 or beyond, I have no idea. And frankly, unless someone works in that part of Apple, they wouldn't know either. I have friends that work in Apple in Cupertino. Not retail stores but in various departments within Apple itself. They either have no knowledge of this stuff or are very good at keeping this stuff to themselves (which is what they are supposed to do).

All I can react to is what I know to be true today. Which is, if you want a Mac and you want to run windows 7 on bootcamp, you have all kinds of options. In fact, all but 1 mac in the Apple store today will work just fine.

It is likely more than 4. Probably near the single digit thousands but normalized against 12M Macs per year not a whole lot. When it spreads across the whole 2014 line up it likely to grow to multiples of those thousands but still normalize to probably a less than single digit percentage.

That sounds like a really complex way of saying "4".

I agree it is not an "end of the world" issue , but this really isn't a "new" issue either. It was highly masked when MS was 'stuck' on XP for an abnormally long amount of time. Once they are moving at normal upgrade pace Apple retirement pace is going to match.

People are complaining because Apple is going to desupport windows 7 and that windows 8 sucks.

Talk about barking up the wrong tree. For all of those who are bent out of shape, send an email to Satya.Nadella@microsoft.com. Microsoft's crappy products are Microsoft's problem, not Apple's.
 
Wow, the opposite of a hackintosh...

The ONE good reason I was going to buy a nMP is now gone. Guess I can thank Apple for saving me $3000+.

So you're hacking a Mac Pro desktop to use as a PC. Interesting. I'm guessing it's for the drivers - else you probably could do a decent job with Mac Fusion and get the best of both worlds.

But don't worry - there's been a *lot* of this kind of thing happening recently and I'm guessing support will return. Seems like Mavericks was more immature than usual.
 
From Apples standpoint it makes sense to not devote resources to many Windows versions. But if you don't support Windows 7, I don't understand why you would support any Windows at all? Its the most used version right now as others have stated.

Window 8 is 40% larger than OS X (by the web usage numbers of original article). If Apple takes 20% of Win 8 users it would grow very significantly ( 1.4 * 0.2 => 28% growth relative to the OS X market.). You are fixated on a approach that tries to snarf as many as possible Windows users. Apple doesn't need that. They need enough to grow on, but the overall objective is not to "grow bigger than Windows". All Apple has to do is pull users from a larger pool. ... not the largest pool.


It is a question of what spend limited resources on. Write new Apple drivers for new Apple hardware for new ( what has the higher overlap operational service life with) newest MS OS. ..... or target new Apple hardware at older MS software (ignoring operational service lifetime).

Vast majority of the 2013 Macs can do Win 7 (and Mac Pro is pragmatically a 2014 era Mac). Apple primarily expects folks to create Win 7 partitions/volumes/drives while it the leading edge version out. They have a Mac for which this works. By 2014 Win 8 is leading edge.

Most users who need longer term usage of an OS "box" it into a VM. Otherwise, if need a 2011-12 era OS then use 10-13 era hardware. Folks highly committed to older OS versions also tend to cling to hardware to. Those two situations covers most users.
 
This explains why the Apple created Bootcamp thumb drives hangs at startup with my late 2013 MacBook Pro?
 
Care to explain Apple? Seriously people don't drop $3,000+ on computers so you can weed out the features you're too lazy to support. This pisses me off.
Get Windows 8.1, install ClassicShell, be a happier person. In that order.
 
I find it odd they'd dump Windows 7 support on a "Pro" machine when most companies HATE Windows 8. It'll only ensure that fewer Mac Pros are sold, IMO. I can't imagine why Apple would consider that a good thing. The richest company in the world can't afford to maintain Boot Camp support for Windows 7 for a few years when they just added proper support for Windows 8 itself a short while ago? Frankly, I think they should have supported WindowsXP longer. 1/3 of all Windows machines are still using it and why should I have to buy a new copy of Windows just to play Windows games on my new Mac because Apple is too lazy to improve their graphics drivers or update OpenGL to the latest version. Many games that are available for both Windows and Mac OS X runs 2-3x faster in Windows on the same Mac running OS X. It's embarrassing. But who wants to drop another $100 for a newer Windows version when most games still support XP even? I don't. I don't use Windows for ANYTHING else.
 
I find it odd they'd dump Windows 7 support on a "Pro" machine when most companies HATE Windows 8. It'll only ensure that fewer Mac Pros are sold, IMO. I can't imagine why Apple would consider that a good thing. The richest company in the world can't afford to maintain Boot Camp support for Windows 7 for a few years when they just added proper support for Windows 8 itself a short while ago?

I am guess that the entire mac pro business is barely a tiny blip in Apple's revenue radar. Its not hard to imagine that the Apple TV business is more meaningful in terms of driving revenue.

Its not just a function of how much money Apple has. It also has to do with, is it worthwhile for Apple to do given the big picture.

Many games that are available for both Windows and Mac OS X runs 2-3x faster in Windows on the same Mac running OS X. It's embarrassing. But who wants to drop another $100 for a newer Windows version when most games still support XP even? I don't. I don't use Windows for ANYTHING else.

Games? Your not seriously arguing that Apple should continue to support Windows 7 on mac pros so you can play video games, are you?
 
Let's be honest, Windows 8/8.1 + Classic Shell (free) is far superior to Windows 7 in just about every way. The underlying architecture is much improved on Windows 7, and the only thing that puts 99% of people off is the Modern interface, which with Classic Shell, you don't even have to interact with. I dual boot OS X Mavericks and Windows 8.1 on my MBP, I use 8.1 for work (network technician) and I can honestly say that the last time I saw the Modern start screen was the first time I installed the OS and just before I installed Classic Shell.

Move with the times people, jesus...
 
Doesn't affect me, but this seems like a bad idea just on spec. Seems to me you should support the current and previous version of any OS, especially knowing MS runs on a screw up/ clean up product cycle.
 
Could be. But today's news is, "new mac pros do not support Windows 7." Not, "Apple no longer supports Windows 7 on any macs."

First, for folks in the market for a new Mac Pro class machine there isn't much of a material difference between those two.


All I can react to is what I know to be true today.

what is true today is not just this specific action but a history of actions Apple has made with respect to Bootcamp's Window support over time.

With Lion/Mountain Lion

"...You can use Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium, Microsoft Windows 7 Professional, or Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate with Boot Camp 4.0. Windows XP and Windows Vista are not supported with Boot Camp 4.0. ..."
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4818?viewlocale=en_US


Sure it is true most of the 2013 Mac line up supports Windows 64 bit in bootcmap. But 32 bit Win 7 ? Nope. XP nope. When XP was dropped was it as large or larger than Win 7's curren't percentage? That too is a known if factored into the equation.

The notion Apple dropping support for Win 7 is not whether they are going to or not. It is going to happen at some point (just like most PC vendors and Microsoft are going to factor in on future hardware at some point. Tag it to a very specific point in time? No. Ballpark? yes. Because Apple is largely predictable. Apple doesn't often randomly change strategy and tactics.




That sounds like a really complex way of saying "4".

It sounds like a really straightforward way of saying that you are at least 2 if not 4 orders of magnitude off on scope of the issue.

If 1% of 9K folks complain about something then will have 90 complaints. That is one reason why Macrumors moves this issue to the front page. The impact is large enough to get a long thread going ( which means they'll get paid with ad views. ).

If the impact was on the order of magnitude you suggest it never would have made the front page.


People are complaining because Apple is going to desupport windows 7 and that windows 8 sucks.

It isn't really a conjunction. Some folks complain at any mention of Win 8 being a viable solution. Given that it has a substantially larger base than all deployed and active Macs ....

Apple is going to not going to support Window 7 on future Mac hardware over time. So are most PC vendors over probably a longer time. It is kind of hard to label this 'desupport" since it was never officially supported on the Mac Pro 2013 in the first place. Can't remove support that never was put into place.

Talk about barking up the wrong tree. For all of those who are bent out of shape, send an email to Satya.Nadella@microsoft.com. Microsoft's crappy products are Microsoft's problem, not Apple's.

It is not Microsoft's job to support proprietary hardware. MS supports mainstream PC market components. The common CPUs , GPUs , IOHUb, USB controllers , etc. but it isn't actually MS job to write drivers for everyone's hardware.

Supporting the boot process is a system vendor issue; not Microsoft's.

This largely isn't about whether the core basic components of Windows run. They do. It is far more about whether custom Apple drivers are around for a specific OS version.
 
Any specific reason to dislike Windows 8 so much? or it is just visceral mindless hate? :rolleyes:

Mostly, my concern is a lack of support for Windows 8 by the IT types that fix my machine when it goes haywire, do installs for things I can't be bothered to, etc.

Windows 8.1 is irksome, but not *super* irksome.

There no sense in talking lack of performance since the Mac Pro is a power-house, and you can restore it in seconds, versus restoring a physical partition.

The idea that someone who owns a Mac Pro, a machine for computationally intensive tasks, might not care about performance is strange. Sure, the Mac Pro is a powerhouse, but a Mac Pro running a VM is somewhat less of one. Every % decrease in performance is time I could have spent doing something else.

If you use windows to game why not just use 8? It's not much different if all you do is boot straight into games.

If you need to use other windows only apps why not just use a VM?

Do you really need native windows for anything other than gaming?

Anything that intensively uses the CPU, GPU or RAM.

Honestly, I don't understand why would someone need a bootcamp on the mac pro:confused:
I think VM can fulfill all the windows needs...
Anyway, if someone need a windows workstation they don't buy a Mac, right?

I use a Mac Pro with Mac OS X probably 80% of the time.
The other 20%, I'm on the Windows side, because it's a piece of software that's critical to what I do, and Windows only.

While a VM can, and oft does, fulfill my needs, there are some heavy analytic workloads that a VM's overhead is annoying to deal with.
 
Not great, but not necessarily the end of the world.
They dropped the MP1,1 from 10.8 and 10.9 and I'm using one of them now. They didn't support Win7 with the 1,1 either and guess what, I run it in Parallels if I want to do something quickly and boot to it natively if I intend being there for a while.
AAPL are *******s sometimes but resourceful coders and the internet make virtually anything possible.

I dual boot my 1,1 with 10.9.2 and windows 8.1 :D
 
Advanced age? I guess in Apple terms it is. Windows 7 came out in the Summer of 2009. Same age as Snow Leopard. Windows 7 still seems like the only option for Windows OS'es though. XP is too old. Vista... is Vista. Windows 8 is a nightmare.

Windows 7 is just a better Vista.

If Vista was the dirty windshield, then Windows 7 is Vista after the car wash.

Meh.
 
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