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It sounds to me like they want to shut the iBookstore down for 5 years. If you terminate Apple's agreements, and don't allow them to make new ones, then Apple can't distribute books.

That bit about 'competing on price' is suspect. Sounds like they are fine with Apple staying open for business but with no MFN or anything else that would give them pricing that would encourage the sales of their offerings. Amazon etc could continue to under cut them and Apple would be powerless to do anything. No free book of the week, no sales, nothing. And the rules might dictate what they can charge. In effect the DOJ applying that whole 'we know what the right price is' that they kept tossing around. Even if it costs Apple huge amounts of money.

Which is worse than simply making them pay a fine and putting restrictions on the application of the MFN etc.

----------

So, the only problem is when a company gets so big/powerful/dominant that it doesn't even have to compete any more since it is able to just stop its competitors. I don't see that happening here.

Not by Apple. But when Amazon did exactly that to Borders, more or less to big parts of Barnes and Noble etc, no one blinked.

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I'm not 100% sure of this, but I believe all Apple ebooks are hosted as basic, DRM free epub documents. In theory, you could use something like iPad Explorer to grab the files out of the iBooks folder, and upload them to your Kindle account.

iBooks are in general DRMed. Which is why on a few rare occasions publishers will demand it not be used and it is called out as such on the listing.
 
Answer me this. I order x amount of copies of the latest, hottest, bestselling hardcover book from the publishers for $20. I order the same amount of that ebook from them at $12.50.

I turn around and sell the hardcovers at my store for $29.95. I sell the ebooks for $9.99 as a way to draw attention to that side of my business.

Is what I'm doing illegal?

Sure. It's legal. But according to the DOJ, it Amazon did it, it would be illegal. They require Amazon to make an overall profit on eBooks from any one publisher.
 
That email did no such thing, unless you want to believe that Apple was guilty and everything is proof of that.

Red Handed would be an email or other document from anyone at Apple saying they wanted and were trying to get all the publishers together to agree to the same terms en masse and to bully every other retailer into agreeing to the same terms or lose the titles.

No such item exists. Instead we have a slanted interpretation of an email sent to one publisher that makes zero mention of anyone else involved that, if read without prejudice, is nothing more than one executive trying to convince another to sign a deal by laying out the state of things and how this proposed deal is a good idea.

It's a similar situation to sending an email to a friend that states "We need to take care of Bobby. He's becoming a problem".

...and then the police find Bobby lying face first on the banks of the river 5 days later.

Now if I read that statement without any prejudice, it could mean any number of things. Assuming Bobby is a problem who needs taking care of doesn't specifically mean we're going to murder him exactly. He could be a problem at work, and we just wanted to fire him. Him disappearing shortly thereafter and ending up dead in the water could be a complete coincidence. All things considered, the email is rather circumstantial, and proves absolutely nothing when taken by itself.

Right? Right?
 
Just reject the apps. Why should Apple be forced to offer free infrastructure to Amazon so that Amazon can further the reach of their own store?
Because Apple needs the best apps available for their iDevices if they want to keep them the best. To me an iPad without the Kindle App would be far less useful and I would immediately look for better alternatives.

Also, Apple's infrastructure plays a role only in making the app available and that is compensated through the developer fee. Kindle ebooks are downloaded from Amazon without any Apple's involvement.
 
As a consumer, I'm sad because Amazon wiped out a lot of the competition for books. Borders is gone, B&N is almost gone, and countless local book stores have closed as well. Amazon has had the best price for a long time, even with the whole iBooks thing.

Ford wiped out a lot of buggy makers and countless local buggy whip makers. Time moved on. The handwriting is clearly on the wall for books made from dead trees. Time is moving on again.

Clearly printed books will be around for a long time to come in some formats. There are people still riding horses too.




Michael
 
This is what gets me the most. WHY would the DoJ give preferential treatment to Amazon over Apple in this situation?

Because consumers were out with pitchforks over books being higher than $9.99 like Amazon was doing it and screaming at the various governments to do something about it.

Ruling against Apple and making them and the publishers fall on swords gives the DOJ etc the power to look like they are listening to the consumers and protecting them from big bad companies. Never mind that we are taking about a non essential item for the most part and consumers could just not buy until the publishers were forced to lower costs.
 
Ford wiped out a lot of buggy makers and countless local buggy whip makers. Time moved on. The handwriting is clearly on the wall for books made from dead trees. Time is moving on again.

Clearly printed books will be around for a long time to come in some formats. There are people still riding horses too.

Michael

You have the wrong analogies and wrong point.

Books made from dead trees are not dead. Amazon sells plenty of them. Amazon became a powerhouse through not only their sales efforts, but the unfair advantage they had (and still have in many states) where they don't pay sales tax. That's a 10% savings right there, that Amazon can save their customers without doing squat.

What if Borders was allowed to sell books tax free, but Barnes & Nobles and Amazon were not. I think Barnes & Nobles and Amazon would have gone out of business first.
 
That email did no such thing, unless you want to believe that Apple was guilty and everything is proof of that.

Red Handed would be an email or other document from anyone at Apple saying they wanted and were trying to get all the publishers together to agree to the same terms en masse and to bully every other retailer into agreeing to the same terms or lose the titles.

No such item exists. Instead we have a slanted interpretation of an email sent to one publisher that makes zero mention of anyone else involved that, if read without prejudice, is nothing more than one executive trying to convince another to sign a deal by laying out the state of things and how this proposed deal is a good idea.

Oh, wow! I didn't know you were part of the trial! Or that you were there, and looked at all the evidence together in detail! I guess charlituna on a blog site knows more than every one else involved in the proceedings. Well, thank goodness you're hear to set the record straight on how that email should be interpreted! Whew! That was close!

Try read the official ruling (http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f282100/282135.pdf), and looking at all the other direct quotes in conjunction with the we are talking about. Especially between pages 20-30 where the group in question quotes things like, "...and expressed his desire "to screw Amazon."" It was understood exactly as it was intended.
 
An overall profit, yes, which they do. It's all a matter of how you interpret them selling items below cost. One man's loss leader is another man's predatory pricing.

Exactly. They looked at it in terms of the total. Forget that Amazon was under pricing new items, hot authors etc. The profit they made on back catalog was just enough for the balance sheet to show the whole thing in the black. Even if barely
 
It's a similar situation to sending an email to a friend that states "We need to take care of Bobby. He's becoming a problem".

...and then the police find Bobby lying face first on the banks of the river 5 days later.

Now if I read that statement without any prejudice, it could mean any number of things. Assuming Bobby is a problem who needs taking care of doesn't specifically mean we're going to murder him exactly. He could be a problem at work, and we just wanted to fire him. Him disappearing shortly thereafter and ending up dead in the water could be a complete coincidence. All things considered, the email is rather circumstantial, and proves absolutely nothing when taken by itself.

Right? Right?

And that's my point. Don't take it by itself. Read the rest of the ruling, and the numerous other quotes in it by the publishers and Apple, and then ask yourself what that quote (and the others) all meant.

For anyone to say Apple should be found innocent because this one quote was "taken out of context" and completely ignore all the OTHER evidence is ridiculous.
 
Huh. According to the DOJ, competition somehow needs to be reset to a point when the market was less competitive. And here I was thinking this was about price fixing. Which should have the simple remedy of returning the money to the consumers that paid too much because of the price fixing. Pricing was moved back to retailers months ago.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but Amazon sure seems to be getting a little bonus here.
My understanding is that the DoJ wants to "reset" competition at that previous point because Apple gained a "competitive advantage" leveraging unfair practices (the conspiracy with the publishers). Only returning money to the consumer without additional measures would still leave Apple in a stronger position than before, gained unfairly.
 
OH MY GOD! How dense can you be?? She made that statement AFTER she had already reviewed the physical evidence, which happens ahead of time in a bench case like this! The only part that hadn't started yet is the lawyers arguing in person back and forth in front of her and putting witnesses on a stand. She even prefaced he comments with "Based on the evidence presented so far..." (paraphrasing). Please reread the article!!!

So why even go through with the formality of the trial? There was no way this judge was going to reach a different decision after hearing Apple's side. Here's part of another article for you to distort:

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/07/10/apple-ebook-verdict-appeal/

The first 122 pages of the 160-page ruling against Apple (AAPL) that U.S. District Judge Denise Cote handed down on Wednesday could have been written before the trial began.

In fact, most of them probably were.

Judge Cote was familiar with the case from having supervised the proceedings by which the five so-called Publisher Defendants settled without admitting guilt.

And when the judge who would decide the non-jury case on her own announced -- even before the trial that Apple insisted on began -- that she believed the government would prove that the company conspired to raise the price of e-books, she also let slip that she'd already begun writing her decision.

It's only in the last 38 pages that she addresses -- and dismisses one by one -- Apple's defenses.


With her as judge, Apple had no chance, and she made that clear before the trial began. How anyone can defend this is beyond belief. Apple's lawyers must have figured they'd win on appeal.
 
Because consumers were out with pitchforks over books being higher than $9.99 like Amazon was doing it and screaming at the various governments to do something about it.

Ruling against Apple and making them and the publishers fall on swords gives the DOJ etc the power to look like they are listening to the consumers and protecting them from big bad companies. Never mind that we are taking about a non essential item for the most part and consumers could just not buy until the publishers were forced to lower costs.

Sorry - isn't it the job (one part) of the DOJ to fight for the consumer?
 
Try read the official ruling (http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f282100/282135.pdf), and looking at all the other direct quotes in conjunction with the we are talking about. Especially between pages 20-30 where the group in question quotes things like, "...and expressed his desire "to screw Amazon."" It was understood exactly as it was intended.

I have read it and it's clear that the "big six" colluded and they get off with a slap on the wrist. Apple on the other hand did things for it's own interests, things that they judge clearly say are legal, and they are looking at a crippling blow.

Apple was the vehicle for the illegal actions of the "big six", yet they are the ones facing the harshest punishments far out in away more damaging than has been handed to the companies that were committing the anti-trust acts. The ruling stinks of bias and contempt for a company that used savvy to bust into a market that was all but closed up by the Kindle.

It's a bad ruling, a biased ruling, that was willfully blind to the bad actions of the monopoly player in the e-book market, the Kindle.
 
Because consumers were out with pitchforks over books being higher than $9.99 like Amazon was doing it and screaming at the various governments to do something about it.

Ruling against Apple and making them and the publishers fall on swords gives the DOJ etc the power to look like they are listening to the consumers and protecting them from big bad companies. Never mind that we are taking about a non essential item for the most part and consumers could just not buy until the publishers were forced to lower costs.

See, the problem I have with your argument is that it's based upon the assumption that Amazon WAS doing wrong, and the publishers/Apple came together as a means to combat it.

Let's assume they were. Amazon did have a market monopoly, and were abusing their position with wild abandon. The publishers banded together to do something about it. But rather than using their combined power to take it in front of the DoJ, they came to a mutual agreement to fix prices, and force the agency model upon the entire industry as a whole. The end result being that the power to set prices was taken from retailers entirely, and controlled by the publishers themselves.

And this is absolute fact. During the time all this was going on, there were no book sales. No price competition among the resellers. No reason to choose one outlet over another. All resellers were turned into fronts for the publishers, and since there was absolutely zero competition amongst them, prices were set across the board. Amazon couldn't undercut their hardcover sales with cheaper ebooks anymore. They were comfortable.

This is especially true of Apple, who gained the largest, most solid foothold in the ebook business during that time by riding the momentum they created with the iPad. Amazon was only able to keep a majority share due to the fact they still had a ton of current Kindle owners to fall back on. Apple didn't have to compete with Amazon toe to toe. The publishers did it for them by hobbling Amazon the moment the iPad was released.

When looked at from this perspective, it seems rather suspicious, doesn't it? When taken with the evidence that the publishers worked together behind the scenes to fix prices, with Apple darting around somewhere behind the scenes, it becomes outright damning.

...but they were competing with an established monopoly, right? They had to do what they had to do just to compete. See, the problem is, they went after an illegal, damaging monopoly by creating another illegal, equally damaging monopoly. They colluded to potentially kneecap one business, and allow another, one directly involved in said collusion, to potentially thrive.

And if you believe Amazon were a little shady, but otherwise working within legal boundaries that still allowed for competition, then it becomes even worse.

You don't necessarily have to like what Amazon does, but the very reasons you don't like Amazon should be the very reasons you don't like what Apple and the publishers had done.

No matter how you look at it, everyone involved in the collusion issue were in the wrong.
 
My understanding is that the DoJ wants to "reset" competition at that previous point because Apple gained a "competitive advantage" leveraging unfair practices (the conspiracy with the publishers). Only returning money to the consumer without additional measures would still leave Apple in a stronger position than before, gained unfairly.

That's the argument. It just ignores the fact that the market overall is more competitive now than before Apple entered the market. And, in practice, this is only going to really benefit Amazon.
 
I have read it and it's clear that the "big six" colluded and they get off with a slap on the wrist. Apple on the other hand did things for it's own interests, things that they judge clearly say are legal, and they are looking at a crippling blow.

Apple was the vehicle for the illegal actions of the "big six", yet they are the ones facing the harshest punishments far out in away more damaging than has been handed to the companies that were committing the anti-trust acts. The ruling stinks of bias and contempt for a company that used savvy to bust into a market that was all but closed up by the Kindle.

It's a bad ruling, a biased ruling, that was willfully blind to the bad actions of the monopoly player in the e-book market, the Kindle.

Because the publishers settled and Apple refused to/took it to court instead?
 
I have read it and it's clear that the "big six" colluded and they get off with a slap on the wrist. Apple on the other hand did things for it's own interests, things that they judge clearly say are legal, and they are looking at a crippling blow.

Apple was the vehicle for the illegal actions of the "big six", yet they are the ones facing the harshest punishments far out in away more damaging than has been handed to the companies that were committing the anti-trust acts. The ruling stinks of bias and contempt for a company that used savvy to bust into a market that was all but closed up by the Kindle.

It's a bad ruling, a biased ruling, that was willfully blind to the bad actions of the monopoly player in the e-book market, the Kindle.

Publishers settled with the DoJ, Apple wanted to go to trial, hence the difference.


By the way, they settled in the EU
 
You have the wrong analogies and wrong point.

Books made from dead trees are not dead. Amazon sells plenty of them. Amazon became a powerhouse through not only their sales efforts, but the unfair advantage they had (and still have in many states) where they don't pay sales tax. That's a 10% savings right there, that Amazon can save their customers without doing squat.

What if Borders was allowed to sell books tax free, but Barnes & Nobles and Amazon were not. I think Barnes & Nobles and Amazon would have gone out of business first.

I'm not going to debate the fact that books made from dead trees are going away just because they are currently being sold. If you work in the industry--the print side--my condolences. But don't try and act like it is not happening. Head over to the other side of the print industry, newspapers, and tell me how great things are (not).

The analogy was pretty simple: new tech replaces old tech.





Michael
 
See, the problem I have with your argument is that it's based upon the assumption that Amazon WAS doing wrong, and the publishers/Apple came together as a means to combat it.

Let's assume they were. Amazon did have a market monopoly, and were abusing their position with wild abandon. The publishers banded together to do something about it. But rather than using their combined power to take it in front of the DoJ, they came to a mutual agreement to fix prices, and force the agency model upon the entire industry as a whole. The end result being that the power to set prices was taken from retailers entirely, and controlled by the publishers themselves.

And this is absolute fact. During the time all this was going on, there were no book sales. No price competition among the resellers. No reason to choose one outlet over another. All resellers were turned into fronts for the publishers, and since there was absolutely zero competition amongst them, prices were set across the board. Amazon couldn't undercut their hardcover sales with cheaper ebooks anymore. They were comfortable.

This is especially true of Apple, who gained the largest, most solid foothold in the ebook business during that time by riding the momentum they created with the iPad. Amazon was only able to keep a majority share due to the fact they still had a ton of current Kindle owners to fall back on. Apple didn't have to compete with Amazon toe to toe. The publishers did it for them by hobbling Amazon the moment the iPad was released.

When looked at from this perspective, it seems rather suspicious, doesn't it? When taken with the evidence that the publishers worked together behind the scenes to fix prices, with Apple darting around somewhere behind the scenes, it becomes outright damning.

...but they were competing with an established monopoly, right? They had to do what they had to do just to compete. See, the problem is, they went after an illegal, damaging monopoly by creating another illegal, equally damaging monopoly. They colluded to potentially kneecap one business, and allow another, one directly involved in said collusion, to potentially thrive.

And if you believe Amazon were a little shady, but otherwise working within legal boundaries that still allowed for competition, then it becomes even worse.

You don't necessarily have to like what Amazon does, but the very reasons you don't like Amazon should be the very reasons you don't like what Apple and the publishers had done.

No matter how you look at it, everyone involved in the collusion issue were in the wrong.

Of course there is more to the argument than that. You talk about the entire industry when in reality, the 5 publishers were around 40% of the market.

-90% of the market (Amazon) set prices. That's okay.
-40% of the market (5 publishers) come together to fight Amazon. That's bad.
-30% of the market (Penguin Random House) decides to merge (aka legally collude). That's okay.

I don't think there is any straightforward right and wrong here.
 
So you are excusing this clearly retaliatory behavior by the Judge and DoJ?

Only in your eyes... :rolleyes:

You implied that Apple got off harshly and the publishers got off easier. Right? It's because the publishers admitted guilty and settled out of court.

Apple stuck to their guns - for better or worse - and now has to deal with the court's decision.

See how that works?

Much like how it would work if you or I were brought up on charges. We might be able to plea bargain or settle out of court. But if we claimed innocence and lost - the penalty would be "greater"
 
Publishers settled with the DoJ, Apple wanted to go to trial, hence the difference.

Thank you, Oletros (and now SamCraig). You beat me to this. The others settled. Apple thought they were untouchable, and wanted to go to court. They gambled. They lost. They get hit harder. No difference than any other criminal trial. For example - If you killed someone, the DA could go after you for Murder One if you go to trial, but if you plea bargain, you can get a lessor sentence of Manslaughter. If you choose not to take the less harsh plea bargain, you take your chances in court, and if you lose, you get the harsher sentence. Why would you expect anything different? You don't go to trial, lose, and then get to say, "Oh, OK! I lost! I guess I'll take the plea deal everyone else did causes it's less penalty than what I just got!"

(and for the record to avoid the flame attacks, I'm not saying what apple did is equivalent to murder. Was just using this as an example of how the real legal system works for those that are confused as to why Apple got hit harder)
 
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