Apple Employees Reportedly Petitioning Against Plan to Return to Office 3x Per Week

[steve09090]

I didn’t know that these Californian Apple folks also act as sheriffs. Of course then back into service. Besides that, I’ve worked with plenty companies that offer wfh and while you can’t fake the coffee drinking lazy office worker meeting that’s mostly for socialising you can implement modern day communication tools , have remote meetings etc.

The comment about workers wasting time talking was a general comment and you know it.

Yes, workers can be lazy, and we all know that. We also know that many are not. But we also know that socialising at work improves mental health.

So I’m not sure what your point actually is.

 

[Nismo73]

Jeez...my type of work is sort of lab environment work and I've been at work pretty much every day for the past 25yrs even throughout covid. Get your bleeping bleep to bleeping work.

 

[ericwn]

The comment about workers wasting time talking was a general comment and you know it.

Yes, workers can be lazy, and we all know that. We also know that many are not. But we also know that socialising at work improves mental health.

So I’m not sure what your point actually is.

I’m not sure why you’d jump on my comment in #422 then. Assumptions about people we don’t know and wether or not they’re lazy and partying all the time while simultaneously pretending to fear Covid is a fairy tale, not much more. That’s the point I made. While both ways of work have their documented ups and downs, pro and con, my productivity and mental health personally is way better at home when I don’t need to spend hours commuting into some bigger town, have no traffic to deal with, have no driving to do etc.

And I am in plenty social meetings every work day too, that’s all the socializing I need.

 

[ericwn]

Jeez...my type of work is sort of lab environment work and I've been at work pretty much every day for the past 25yrs even throughout covid. Get your bleeping bleep to bleeping work.

Not everyone needs a lab to get their stuff done, as plenty Apple folks and others have proven successfully over the last few years.

 

[steve09090]

Not everyone needs a lab to get their stuff done, as plenty Apple folks and others have proven successfully over the last few years.

Apples opinion actually counts as they run the actual business and they decide how they want to structure their own business. What is wrong with that?

People can decide if they want to work by walking out the door (subject to contracts they signed with Apple). A petition is only as good as Apple want it to be. Suck it up!

And I am in plenty social meetings every work day too, that’s all the socializing I need.

That’s fine for you. And as long as it’s fine for your employer, that’s a double well done to them.

 

[ericwn]

Apples opinion actually counts as they run the actual business and they decide how they want to structure their own business. What is wrong with that?

People can decide if they want to work by walking out the door (subject to contracts they signed with Apple). A petition is only as good as Apple want it to be. Suck it up!

Yup, and the opinion of their staff matters as well - as it's their job and their lives. Just because you don't seem to like others working from home doesn't mean they can't protest for what they want. Apple and the staff will come to a solution - and "suck it up" never solves or accomplishes anything other than attempting to dismiss an ongoing change in first world countries.

 

[seek3r]

Jeez...my type of work is sort of lab environment work and I've been at work pretty much every day for the past 25yrs even throughout covid. Get your bleeping bleep to bleeping work.

“Things suck for me so things should suck for everyone, forever” is a pretty crappy position tbh

 

[I7guy]

Yup, and the opinion of their staff matters as well - as it's their job and their lives. Just because you don't seem to like others working from home doesn't mean they can't protest for what they want. Apple and the staff will come to a solution - and "suck it up" never solves or accomplishes anything other than attempting to dismiss an ongoing change in first world countries.

I don’t know. Some companies have a “suck it up” attitude. And yes, good companies, imo, tend to find middle ground solutions that benefit all.

 

[bunnicula]

My guess is they have gotten nice and cozy working remotely. No commuting, work in PJs, take breaks etc. Who wants to return to an office setting even if only for 3 days week? Well "snowflakes" if you want to keep working for Apple, times are about to change back reality. Quit being crybabies.

There's no way in hell they'll get rid of everyone over this. LOL. This is a tech company that wants top talent, not your local GameStop.

 

[steve09090]

I don’t know. Some companies have a “suck it up” attitude. And yes, good companies, imo, tend to find middle ground solutions that benefit all.

That's true. And Apple it seems is one of those companies. They wanted to get people back 6 months ago, but they held off. They are working with employees to find that solution. Having a permanent WFH situation is not a solution.

 

[sirozha]

That's true. And Apple it seems is one of those companies. They wanted to get people back 6 months ago, but they held off. They are working with employees to find that solution. Having a permanent WFH situation is not a solution.

Drag people to the office with a 90-minute commute one way IS the solution.

It was an asinine idea for Apple to build the spaceship campus. Apple has so much cash they don’t know what to do with that a swanky city within a city felt like a great idea to Jobs. He was wrong. They never really got to use the spaceship. It took many years to complete it, and as soon as they moved employees there and settled them, the pandemic hit. The biggest reason Cook wants to drag everyone back to the office is to fill the spaceship.

The spaceship may be an amazing facility - best in the world - but people don’t want to deal with horrible traffic, having to find parking, etc. before they can even start their work day. It takes them 20 seconds to walk to their desk at home. It takes them 1.5 hours to do so if they work from the spaceship. Then, another 1.5 hours to get back home. People have families, kids, responsibilities, they want to work out, they need to buy groceries, cook dinners for their kids, do homework with them, read to them, put them to bed, etc. Folks have realized they can save 3 or 4 hours per day by working from home and be more productive than working from the office. They don’t want to go back to the pre-pandemic nightmare of wasting their lives in traffic. Can you blame them?

I think the pandemic was a godsend in that it taught the world that building office spaces with a cubicle for every employee is a stupid idea from so many perspectives. We have terrible traffic in most metro areas because everyone drives dozens of miles to the office. We have pollution because of that. We have people wasting their lives in traffic. We have tens of thousands of people getting killed during commutes annually. We have low productivity when people are dragged to the office because of all the ******** that people do when they get together, noisy office floors that prevent people from being able to focus on their work, etc. We have urban sprawl partly because of this. Our downtowns became huge office parks instead of being viable cities where people live. All of that is complete nonsense. At least make some lemonade out if the pandemic and learn the lessons it taught us.

With the modern Internet infrastructure and the excellent collaborative tools like Cisco Webex, Microsoft Teams, Zoom, Google Meet, etc. at least 50% of the workforce in all first-world countries would be better off (for both companies and the employees) working from home. This wouldn’t have been possible 20 years ago, but it’s possible today. The pandemic has proven it.

 

[steve09090]

Drag people to the office with a 90-minute commute one way IS the solution.

It was an asinine idea for Apple to build the spaceship campus. Apple has so much cash they don’t know what to do with that a swanky city within a city felt like a great idea to Jobs. He was wrong. They never really got to use the spaceship. It took many years to complete it, and as soon as they moved employees there and settled them, the pandemic hit. The biggest reason Cook to drag everyone back to the office is to fill the spaceship.

The spaceship may be an amazing facility - best in the world - but people don’t want to deal with horrible traffic, having to find parking, etc. before they can even start their work day. It takes them 20 seconds to walk to their desk at home. It takes them 1.5 hours to do so if they work feom
the spaceship. Then, another 1.5 hours to get back home. People have families, kids, responsibilities, they want to work out, they need to buy groceries, cool dinners for their kids, do homework with them, read to them, put them to bed, etc. Folks have realized they can save 4 hours per day by working from home and be more productive than working from the office. They don’t want to go back to the pre-pandemic nightmare of wasting their lives in traffic. Can you blame them?

I think the pandemic was a godsend in that it taught the world that building office spaces with a desk for every employee is a stupid idea feom so many perspectives. We have terrible traffic in most metro areas because everyone drives dozens of miles to the office. We have pollution because of that. We have people eating their lives in traffic. We have low productivity when people are dragged to the office because of all the ******** that people do when they get together, we have urban sprawl partly because of this. Our downtowns have become dead because people fled to the burns and downtowns became huge office parks. All of that is complete nonsense.

Cry me a river. What did people do with their cats before they became so precious? If they aren't capable of leaving the house to go to work, get help or take a pay cut.

 

[nebojsak]

Ah! A WFH topic - what a nice way to energize everybody on a Monday

That being said, I am really surprised that Apple insists on rolling this out as a one-size-fits-all solution. There might be teams for which all relevant members are in the US and a lot of direct exchange is beneficial, but then others who can either work individually or have parts of their teams on other continents anyway. For the former, 4 days in the office might be right, while for the latter it's enough to just come and meet the local colleagues once every 2 weeks.

Because they have that corporate surveillance mentality. It's when you have that suit-and-tie middle and upper manager-minded person as CEO.

 

[stocklen]

Yes, I can imagine it.

It’s at least 50% of companies out there.

I quit the company I consulted for because they refused to continue WFH after my manger left and a bozo was hired to replace him. That was before the pandemic. I quit and was happy I did. They went 100% WFH shortly thereafter when the pandemic hit. They asked me to come back on 100% remote a year ago. I told them I wasn’t going to the office. They said they didn’t need me to. I’ve been consulting for them 100% remote. I do IT architecture, design, and implementation. No reason to be in t he office. It’s all 100% remote anyway. The boss was a bozo. He is still there. But he is no longer my boss. The director said I didn’t need to report to the bozo anymore. Now I report directly to the director. That’s how it works in the tech world with those who are worth a damn. Those who are not worth anything report to the bozos who drag them to the office to warm chairs.

Cheers!

Well, the poor 'bozo' as you so eloquently put it was probably only trying to do his job and nurture a nice collaborative inclusive working environment where all the team knew each other and made decent working relationships...

It suits you to never set foot in the office and if that works for you and the business then thats perfectly fine of course.

I wonder whether some of your colleagues feel sad that they'll never get to meet you...

 

[sirozha]

Cry me a river. What did people do with their cats before they became so precious? If they aren't capable of leaving the house to go to work, get help or take a pay cut.

No one is crying. People are exercising their freedoms. Good for them. Cook had tried to pull this off twice in the past year and he backed off both times. If he goes through with it this time, he will lose a significant number of most talented employees. Only the mediocrities who are of no interest to competitors will oblige Cook.

 

[sirozha]

Well, the poor 'bozo' as you so eloquently put it was probably only trying to do his job and nurture a nice collaborative inclusive working environment where all the team knew each other and made decent working relationships...

It suits you to never set foot in the office and if that works for you and the business then thats perfectly fine of course.

I wonder whether some of your colleagues feel sad that they'll never get to meet you...

All of my colleagues are now remote. Wake up. The world has changed. No one wants to go to the office. We have reduced the office space from 34 floors to 12 floors. No one has a personal desk anymore. Another office in the same city is being sold. We are vacating it. The 12 floors are only about 15% filled. We will be downsizing the office space further. People work from all over the country and from all over the world.

The sun never sets on the company. The company operates 24 hours a day and most work from home. It’s one of the largest multinational corporations in its field. Before the pandemic, those working remotely were a minuscule percentage. Now about 90% work remotely 100% of the time.

We do meet each other over video conferencing. It works just fine.

The bozo was on a power trip. He now backed off, and everyone who reports to him is now working from home.

This company was completely anti remote work just a few years ago. Now they completely embraced the remote work paradigm. The pandemic showed them the way.

 

[VidPro]

People died, but I get to work at home now. 😂

 

[sirozha]

Yes. I’m in a corporate job and worked in one for 2 years (before Covid happened).

Two years!

 

[sirozha]

Some of these hot takes are hilarious. This is all about employees wanting a silent raise - they get to sit on their zoom calls in their underwear with a shirt/blouse, with the call muted 95% of the time, not having to pay for gas or vehicle wear costs, lunches, wardrobes, etc, and still make the same amount. Because, you know, they work harder and are more productive at home.

Elon Musk is correct on this topic.

Let’s see. You have a problem that they don’t have to pay for gas, vehicle wear costs, lunches, wardrobes, etc. And that’s your argument? You’ve gotta be kidding. Or are you jealous of them wearing underwear?

 

[jlc1978]

I didn’t know that these Californian Apple folks also act as sheriffs. Of course then back into service. Besides that, I’ve worked with plenty companies that offer wfh and while you can’t fake the coffee drinking lazy office worker meeting that’s mostly for socialising you can implement modern day communication tools , have remote meetings etc.

and key loggers and cameras...

 

[ThailandToo]

First of all, why do you believe that working-from-home does preclude being a "valuable part of a team"? Sometimes I wonder which kind of dysfunctional working environment people must have experienced to state such things.



Furthermore... why do you think a qualified, experienced employee would accept such ridiculous conditions? Do you have any idea how starved is the marked of qualified, experienced employees? There is a reason companies offer benefits to these kinds of employees and that's because they want to retain their talent.

Your suggestion kinda defeats the idea of retaining talent and would actually cause talent to leave and mediocre employees with less appealing alternative opportunities to remain.

On top of everything, an employee cannot just label someone a contractor and refuse benefits because they say so: a contractor classification requires the work to have specific characteristics e.g. of independence. Working from home in itself is not enough for such classification, as there are employee jobs which can be performed from home and contractor jobs which need to be performed on-site.

The game you are suggesting Apple to play is actually very dangerous for the company.

You’re missing the point. Apple is giving people the opportunity to work in a place that they dream to work in. To do work they love doing. If they don’t want to work they’re abiding by Apple’s conditions, they should resign. Apple has a duty to pay a fair wage. You think people living in the Midwest of America are paying so much less for rent? I’m originally from the Midwest the city I am from costs about $1500 per month for a one-bedroom apartment that’s nice. Not luxurious but nice. The average pay there is $56,000 annually. Do the math, I would rather make $150k and pay $3k for rent than earn $56k and pay $1500 for rent.

If people want to work from home, they’re bringing in the potential to be classified as an independent contractor. It doesn’t benefit Apple to potentially lose trade secrets by having people work as independent contractors, but it also doesn’t benefit Apple to hire employees who refuse to work in the office as a team.

What got Apple to where it is now is a unique structure of a flatter hierarchy. I agree Tim Cook and the executives take all the money for themselves. Your prerogative is different than Apple’s. Their leadership is paying money to have people work at the headquarters as a team.

Yes it’s hard to hire people who have the talents and supply and demand will balance. Maybe it’s time for Apple to finally pay its executives less so they can pay their employees more. But that isn’t the gig here. If everyone threatens to quit because Apple isn’t paying them enough, Apple will respond. But that isn’t what you’re arguing. You’re saying that people should decide the corporate rules and work wherever and whenever they want. That’s not the way corporations work. If you want that, start your own corporation. If you want to work from home only, then start a union and dictate what the company must allow employees to do. But you will end up making less pay.

Seems to me people moved away from Silicon Valley and are now living on 3x wages of where the costs are less and they don’t want to move back. I read that’s a lot of what’s happened in San Francisco. So they’re arguing a point because they want to work from home or they want to work from home wherever they decide to call home.

The world doesn’t work that way. Liberal mindset will only get you so far when even Apple is a corporation with conservative mindset ensuring its executives and shareholders make the bank. If they don’t care about you, you’re not that valuable to them. Go somewhere that you’re valued. Go somewhere that shares your values. Work and live on less money in a cheaper city. Lots of ways to do it.

 

[ericwn]

and key loggers and cameras...

Yup that stuff can be found in many places. Offices often times are covered in cameras.

 

[I7guy]

[…].

With the modern Internet infrastructure and the excellent collaborative tools like Cisco Webex, Microsoft Teams, Zoom, Google Meet, etc. at least 50% of the workforce in all first-world countries would be better off (for both companies and the employees) working from home. This wouldn’t have been possible 20 years ago, but it’s possible today. The pandemic has proven it.

What was proven is that we people are resourceful, adapted and got work done no matter what adversity faced us. It doesn’t mean wfh is a panacea or the best all-around. Some companies may get rid of their off space and offset that against lost productivity loses.

It’s true that IT work and customer service can benefit from remote collaboration and save money by getting rid of office space, but that doesn’t mean in person work when needed is better and far more efficient.
..

[…]

This company was completely anti remote work just a few years ago. Now they completely embraced the remote work paradigm. The pandemic showed them the way.

Some situations fully remote will work some it won’t. Nobody is in a position to judge whether Tim Cook is filling space or not.

 

[jdclifford]

There's no way in hell they'll get rid of everyone over this. LOL. This is a tech company that wants top talent, not your local GameStop.

Not everyone is whining and Apple should have no problem replacing those who quit. A lot of people want to work for Apple and will gladly jump at a 3-in/2-out workweek.

 

[seek3r]

Not everyone is whining and Apple should have no problem replacing those who quit. A lot of people want to work for Apple and will gladly jump at a 3-in/2-out workweek.

Even if Apple could replace everyone immediately losing a flood of engineers would be a legit crisis for the company. It takes months to bring a new engineer up to speed, and losing institutional knowledge can cripple a project. Losing a key person can literally kill a project, I’ve seen it happen.