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So for me, skeumorphism has a place, I just think Forstall drew on it in the wrong ways. Yeah, game center-->gaming-->Vegas-->craps table, but then it just went cartoonish with the Flintstones typeface and silly table format for listing games. There's nothing really wrong with Notes looking like a notepad, but don't mock me with that stupid marker felt font; if you want my notes to look like handwritten notes, let me write handwritten notes. And then when you scale those things up to the iPad or the Mac, yeesh.

But it doesn't have to be that way. A few of my favorite apps (To Do, Evernote, Penultimate) have skeumorphic qualities that really help. Especially on the iPad, where ToDo really behaves like an advanced todo notebook and Penultimate looks just like my moleskine. The difference is that the devs didn't go full cartoon with it.

I'm skeptical for what Ive will do. My concern is that we'll get something equivalent to a plain white background and black text.
 
I do hope that it really is what Ive wants, and not what "das interwebz" is telling Apple to do.

No need to worry because we're talking about Apple and not Microsoft who seem to be like the unpopular kid trying to be popular based on what everyone else considers 'cool'.

As for hiring more engineers - I wish people would read up on 'the mythical man month' because throwing more engineers at a problem isn't going to solve a problem. What Apple need to actually do is merge a lot more of the lower levels of OS X together, share a lot more of the frameworks and enhance LLVM more so that parts of the testing and debugging can be automated. Do you hire another 100 people with shovels or do you buy a bull dozer with a single driver to do the same job?
 
1. How are they listening to analysts?
2. Innovation can't be done every darn year. It's a slow process. Should iPhone have holograms or what exactly do you want Apple to "innovate"?
3. Debt was issued because it was less expensive than bringing over their money from across the world.

Maybe you should become CEO. I'm sure you'd lead Apple to "glorious" decision making. :rolleyes:

A lot of you tend to assume they know what Apple should and should not do. You guys are a joke. I'm sure Apple would be seeking your "glorious" advice if it was so wise, but it isn't which is why they aren't.

O.K now I want my iPhone to have holograms :D
 
As for hiring more engineers - I wish people would read up on 'the mythical man month' because throwing more engineers at a problem isn't going to solve a problem. What Apple need to actually do is merge a lot more of the lower levels of OS X together, share a lot more of the frameworks and enhance LLVM more so that parts of the testing and debugging can be automated. Do you hire another 100 people with shovels or do you buy a bull dozer with a single driver to do the same job?

Someone should inform Apple. I mean, they just threw a bunch of extra engineers on iOS... Clearly iOS 7 was a problem that required more "hands on deck". Now if only they had some extra hands, OS X's team would not have had anyone pulled away from it.
 
WWDC June 10-14

With Apple's WWDC being roughly a month away doesn't logic dictate that about 98% of iOS7 is already designed, updated with whatever new features it's going to have?

I would think that any developers that are being "pulled over" from Mac OS and the overtime "if it even exists" is insuring that it's ready for the Developer Conference where it will be shown for the first time.

The time for adding new features and major design changes would have to be finished by now.

Apple will not have another "Map" episode.
 
Someone should inform Apple. I mean, they just threw a bunch of extra engineers on iOS... Clearly iOS 7 was a problem that required more "hands on deck". Now if only they had some extra hands, OS X's team would not have had anyone pulled away from it.

This isn't the first nor the last time employees get pulled off one project and on to another. I'm sure it happens at a lot of companies on a regular basis. I know where I work it happens all the time.
 
However, I think everyone is getting too caught up in this, iOS needs far more than just a fresh coat of paint, it needs many many improvements in how the OS operates. We still do not have quick reply for text messages, actionable notifications, quick settings toggles, status bar notification icons, etc, etc. I believe it needs all those and more just to catch up to the competition, and no matter what anybody says, third party widgets are sorely needed.

Actionable notifications, yes, status bar notifications, I sincerely hope not. The status bar, even on my HTC with 4.7" of screen real estate, can only show so many icons, making it pretty useless and cluttered looking. Even worse, if I download 5 things from google play, it shows the google play icon 5 times instead of just once... really, really stupid. I find icon badges to be far more useful; even more so than the notification center itself.
 
Aristotle was a son of a doctor, so he may at some point have considered this interesting concurrency problem. However, I think it was Fred Brooks who became famous for that quote.

Yeah I know, just is funny to stick Aristotle's name into any quote :D
 
Stupid

Stupid thing to fire Apple's most talented engineering manager and then trash skeumophism. Especially, since Apple's greatest manager ever over the history of time, Steve Jobs, is said to have supported it.

I'm dubious about the alternatives to skeumorphism that engineers are trying to build up. I'm sure there is no shortage of engineers who love this sort of abstract software stuff, but regular people don't. That is what Steve Jobs brought to Apple that managers at other companies never had - a motivation to design products (especially software) that connect with ordinary people - not necessarily engineers. Engineers are often the last to adopt humanistic design principles in software (witness the number of geeks and engineers who still insist on changing the skin over Windows XP or later so that it still looks like Windows 98 or NT. They think this save a couple clock cycles on their gpu or something. OK. Does anyone in the real world actually care?).

Designing software is not the same as designing hardware. Nobody really needs to see the hardware, so that's why simple lines and clean interfaces are optimal.

Alternatively, the software needs to communicate intuitively to the user the use of the particular "mode" that the device is in, and skeumorphism is a very efficient, recognizable and intuitive way to connect with users on that. It's comforting. They like it.

I would liken it to the difference between the canvas and frame of a painting, to the painting itself. The device is like the frame of the painting. It should be simple and unintrusive. However, the paint on the canvas is the software. Not all aspects of it are orderly or it would be boring and uninteresting. It has a historical and social understanding and meaning that is not necessarily based only on the engineering principles of paint or its use. It draws on people's experience in life and culture, and so the social context is extremely important. People make an emotional connection to the painting, as opposed to the frame, which they don't. If there is a humanistic component to a painting (and the most celebrated paintings have that), it is in the application of the paint and not in the frame.

I think Steve Jobs understood this well, and communicated it best when he talked about his love of classical artistry in typefaces as one of his inspirations for the Mac. It would have been easier and simpler to stick to a single font like Courier font like say MS DOS, but that's not what life is about and that's not how 95% of people connect (even if engineers and designers wish that they would).

I worry that the new software interface will lose the connection that ordinary people have to their iOS devices.

An analogy might be like an old Braun TV set with wonderful device styling, but which comes preloaded with programming that consists only of inaccessible European art house films with intentionally difficult to follow or boring plots. You know, those films that are shot in modern homes with straight lines, and where they try to pare the script down to as few words as possible so that 40% of the movie is totally silent.

For software interface design, Apple needs an artist who is more like a painter or a graphic design artist, than someone who is like an architect or engineer. Someone who sees art in what an ordinary engineer may see as only extraneous. Someone who taps into his intuition and not just his logical brain. I don't know Forstall personally, but it seems like he may have been that sort of person.

Worrisome. But we'll have to see what comes out.

MS Metro is so wonderfully abstract and looks modern and slick, but guess what; hardly anyone likes to use it. After you get over the initial novelty it appears quite boring and your eye doesn't really catch on any one tile in any unique way over any other.

Hey, If Jony wants to get rid of skeumorphism and its analogous design principles altogether, why not get rid of the software buttons, software toggle switches, and hey, just put a command line and we can all run UNIX commands from Siri voice recognition. That would be awesome from the engineering standpoint. However 99% of the population doesn't connect with that, even if there are some engineers who could. That's why this could be a bad idea.
 
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MacRumors said:
Apple Engineers Working Overtime on iOS 7's 'DeForstallization'

Hundreds of Apple engineers working 18 hours a day to painfully delete millions of unwanted texture resources in iOS! :rolleyes:
 
I just hope were not all telling Jony to keep his day job :rolleyes:

Seriously, iOS, since it was iPhone OS, had skeumorphism. Remember the original dock? It was perforated metal like the Dashboard in Tiger.

Sure it could be toned down a bit, but there's nothing wrong with it. Plus I've always known Apple since I was a child to be fun. What's next, axe the cat names? They already took Mac out of Mac OS. I suppose we'll be saying goodbye to Finder in the distant future. I love the quirkiness of OS X, I hated how Windows was all business!
 
Stupid thing to fire Apple's most talented engineering manager over - skeumorphism. Especially, since Apple's greatest manager ever over the history of time, Steve Jobs, is said to have supported it.

One, its doubtful Forstall was fired because of this and two, Jobs is gone so just because he liked it doesn't mean Apple should keep it forever. Steve wasn't always right about everything. I mean he was a fan of the hockey puck mouse. :)
 
This is called Tim Cook in charge:

- Listen to anal-ysts and follow them instead of leading on your own;
- Stop innovating;
- Turn a natural growth stock into Nestlé/Microsoft;
- issue debt when no debt is needed.

If you think that Apple stock could have remained a "growth stock," I'd suggest you read up a bit on how the law of large numbers affects finance. If you think "no debt is needed," you're technically correct but Apple would have been foolish to ignore the opportunity that debt creates in this low interest rate environment, particularly given the inability of Apple to repatriate its cash stockpile.

As to your first two points, I think the jury is still out. But I think his decision to shuffle management to promote Ive and sack Forstall was both gutsy and justified. Will it lead to innovation? My guess is yes, but we'll see.
 
New iOS UI

Really, It will be interesting to see what really happens to the iOS UI, rumors don't mean Jack!
 
I'm dubious about the alternatives to skeumorphism that engineers are trying to build up. I'm sure there is no shortage of engineers who love this sort of abstract software stuff, but regular people don't. That is what Steve Jobs brought to Apple that managers at other companies never had - a motivation to design products (especially software) that connect with ordinary people - not necessarily engineers. Engineers are often the last to adopt humanistic design principles in software (witness the number of geeks and engineers who still insist on changing the skin over Windows XP or later so that it still looks like Windows 98 or NT).

I'd like you to show me one person who likes the iPad over the competition simply because the calendar app has a stitched leather border along the top. Who likes the iPad only because the notepad app actually looks like a notepad.

You might find three if you look hard enough.

Humanistic design principals aren't about making your UI look like something you'd see in real life. If that were the case, Microsoft Bob would've set the world on fire back in the early 90's. It's more about ergonomics, flow, and general attractiveness. Is it easy to read? Can you find everything you need right up front without having to dig for it? Is it too crowded? Too sparse? What about the font? Do the icons work well together and present information clearly?

You can do this without making iBooks look like an actual bookshelf. Skeumorphism is just one design choice among many. It's not required to make a UI look "humanistic" or whatever. Much like anything, it can be put to great use, or end up being absolutely terrible.

And like all things in tech and fashion, two waves Apple tries their best to ride, what's cutting edge today is old hat tomorrow. Like it or hate it, skeumorphisms are old hat right now. No one likes them anymore.

...and like someone else said (I think) earlier in this thread, we'll probably end up going crazy stupid for them again in another 5-10 years.
 
When the biggest talking point from Apple about iOS7 is how they're going to make it uglier, I start to worry.
 
Engineering talent is scarce, why do you think the big companies keep trading between themselves. Also throwing more Engineers at a problem can actually be detrimental.

Engineers who understand design enough to be UX experts are scarcer still.
Designers who understand enough engineering to be UX designers are just as hard to come by.
 
What concerns me a bit with this is that it all seems a bit rushed, what with calling engineers off of other projects and all that.

Last time Apple wanted to get back at "the enemy" we had the maps fiasco. I wonder if they are trying a bit too hard to remove all trace of Forstal and might end up with a "cutting off your nose to spite your face" problem. These other new mobile operating systems (such as Windows 8) obviously had a lot of time and effort put into how they look and feel rather than just "making them flatter".

I was going to buy an iMac to replace my dying PC last week but Ive's obsession with thinness put me off, I'd rather have an inch thick iMac that performs competitively (and has a still-useful optical drive for burning discs) than one 4mm thick at the edges for the sake of being 4mm thick at the edges... I'm hoping we don't end up with iOS7 being iOS 6 with all the shiny bits taken out and nothing new about the functionality here.
 
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