According to Kuo's chart, they are just 'forcing' customers for the 13 and 15" MBP to wait until 2020.
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Apple Expected to Adopt Keyboard With Scissor Mechanism for Upcoming 16-inch MacBook Pro
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Question...
I am definitely in for the 16" MBP if it includes the scissor keyboard. I hate the keyboard on my 2018 MBP.
Should I wait for OLED screens? It could be introduced as a spec bump in 2020 for the 16" MBP. Only guessing.
Is there a real difference in laptop LCD vs. OLED screens?
Thanks
I am definitely in for the 16" MBP if it includes the scissor keyboard. I hate the keyboard on my 2018 MBP.
Should I wait for OLED screens? It could be introduced as a spec bump in 2020 for the 16" MBP. Only guessing.
Is there a real difference in laptop LCD vs. OLED screens?
Thanks
What is frustrating to me with Apple laptop "innovation", is that there used to be a certain patter of how things evolved. Or at least that is how I recall. Function > Form, and shifting what users needed to do.
I know people don't like to hear complaints about dongles, MagSafe removal, no USB-A, but these are legit concerns over basically no transition system that eases out "the old" and brings in the new where you feel that $2000+ in a laptop will not cost you another $200 just to get it to work as you expect it.
I'm hoping that this 16" with the keyboard changes is at least a way for Apple to move forward and realize that they need to listen to customer feedback vs. always jump into the deep end out of "courage".
I know people don't like to hear complaints about dongles, MagSafe removal, no USB-A, but these are legit concerns over basically no transition system that eases out "the old" and brings in the new where you feel that $2000+ in a laptop will not cost you another $200 just to get it to work as you expect it.
I'm hoping that this 16" with the keyboard changes is at least a way for Apple to move forward and realize that they need to listen to customer feedback vs. always jump into the deep end out of "courage".
The tras
The transition is get new cables or new peripherals. Or you can get adaptors and most of them are pretty cheap. If you want to switch to newer tech, you can. I have an ethernet to usb-c which also has an usb-a port and I also had something similar for my 2013 MBP and the only ”lost” port is the hdmi and you rarely need hdmi on the go.
The transition is get new cables or new peripherals. Or you can get adaptors and most of them are pretty cheap. If you want to switch to newer tech, you can. I have an ethernet to usb-c which also has an usb-a port and I also had something similar for my 2013 MBP and the only ”lost” port is the hdmi and you rarely need hdmi on the go.
Where's the proof that scissor-mechanism keyboards are "more durable" or "not as prone to failure from heat, dust and other small particulates"? Is MacRumors going to provide some numbers from the industry there? For example, how often do Lenovo scissor keyboards fail? Or Dell? Or HP? Why not provide some numbers if this issue is going to presented in black-and-white terms? I'll give the answer: there aren't any numbers and there isn't any proof. MacRumors literally has no idea as to what failure rates for scissor-mechanism keyboards are for Apple or for PC laptop makers.
As Apple and official suppliers for these products do not fully report numbers we can only go by statements of anecdotal evidence and subsequent behaviour of the company that is supporting these changes.
While maybe not 100% related to the mechanism itself, since 2016 MacBook's that started using this form of mechanism, Apple has had to announce and support 4 years of keyboard repairs under warranty for this specific issue.
Companies like Apple do not create warranty programs for minor issues that do not have a higher chance of occuring. These programs are specifically setup when there is a known manufacturers defect in which the manufacturer knows they will have to offer additional on going repair and support above that of normal.
The fact that Apple have themselve commented on it means that the issue is more significant than previous models which did NOT require Apple's comment, nor enhanced and extended warranty coverage.
Claiming that despite this, it's not a problem and only hard line facts can sway you only shows that your own personal incredulity at the issue is getting in your way of understanding the issue.
Neither HP, Dell nor Lenovo currently have extended warranty coverage given for free due to manufacturing issues or defects. What also makes the Apple situation so much "louder" and more eggregious to many Apple users is the fact that unlike the other manufacturers, Apple's newest keyboard cannot be replaced easily and requires the complete changing of the top of the chassis. So while defects may occur in other manufacturers, and other's keyboards do fail from time to time. Those fixes are a 15 minute keyboard swap that costs < $150 fater warranty. Apple's requires sending the computer away for a massive part swap and out of warranty costs $600+.
If Apple's own admission, and their constant redesigning of the keyboard, plus the warranty program and the anecdotal stories don't convince you that there's a possible problem, than your mind was likely made up already.
You echoed my thoughts but only in a far more coherent way than I could ever dream of explaining it.
We have to be able to admit that... Apple... can make bad design and engineering choices.
On the contrary, Apple has a history of providing very generous customer service for issues that do not turn out to be major design problems at all. Remember the free bumpers for the iPhone 4? There was nothing wrong with the antenna design relative to the rest of the industry (attenuation was not an unusual issue), but Apple was perfectly willing to provide free stuff regardless. It was worth it to them to avoid the bad tech press, despite the fact that Apple knew it was unsubstantiated. And the more recent battery "controversy"? Apple basically ate a huge amount of $$ that it didn't have to. There was nothing wrong with the iPhone's battery performance or design at all, just a huge internet controversy based entirely on ignorance of how lithium ion batteries actually work in small devices like smartphones. Again, Apple knew there was nothing significantly wrong and still bent over backwards for customers despite that fact.
Now you have the butterfly keyboard design. It actually debuted in the MacBook, but the supposed "problems" with the design somehow magically skipped that hardware and didn't appear in the tech press until the more expensive MacBook Pro started using it. Now you have people treating changes to the mechanism materials and design as if it's "proof" that something was really wrong with it, despite the fact that they have no real numbers to back that up. For example, how does MacRumors know that a switch back to the scissor-mechanism is actually related to "failure rates"? What if it's just an advance in scissor-design that solves the key stability problems that Apple was addressing with the butterfly mechanism?
"Neither HP, Dell nor Lenovo currently have extended warranty coverage given for free due to manufacturing issues or defects."
Which proves...nothing. A simple internet search for 'keyboard problems lenovo' or 'keyboard problems dell' will give you links to all the same keyboard problems that Apple laptops can have, like stuck keys due to dust/crumbs, keys that stop working, and total keyboard failures. Scissor mechanism keyboards have never been immune to those problems. They've always existed. You'll also see those manufacturers providing the exact same types of troubleshooting tips, like using compressed air to dislodge dust/crumbs.
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There isn't a single bit of truth in this post and shows a gross ignorance of the issues.
The battery issue was not related to how Lithium batteries "degrade" overtime. Yes, they do, but the issue here wasn't that they degraded and weren't holding enough lengevity of life. They were unable to meet the peak draw under a spike of performance load. Apple's solution to throttle the CPU was very VERY real and while it is a good work around for a design flaw, the fact Apple snuck it in without telling people and it took over a year where even Genius's at stores weren't told how to test for this. While at the same time, Tim Cook was on record saying they do not throttle phones.
if you are going to go down the path that every criticism of failures of design by Apple are 'nothingburgers' or made up conspiracies than I think we're done here. you've made it perfectly clear that the evidence is irrelevant to your already preconcieved opinions.
Have yourself a good day.
Nope, I only blame him for the products designed at Apple while he was the head of design at Apple.
Darth Tulhu
macrumors 68020
That's one take. The other is they had no choice considering how several high-profile Apple aficionados have stated they will never buy another Apple notebook with the butterfly keyboard, and recommend others follow suit.
Darth Tulhu
macrumors 68020
I wouldn't mind the rounded corners as long as they don't intrude into the UI and block things. I think it looks cool, but I preferm function over form, so...
I can live with the TouchBar (not a touch-typist), even if I find it unnecessary. I feel Apple should offer it as an option, not the default.
As far as the camera, I figured it'd be small enough to fit the narrow bezel, even if it's not visible in the mockup, like on the Dell XPS.
No chance they have a warranty extension programme in place on products that have just released if it was only effecting a small percentage of users. A switch back to a scissor mechanism just seems like further indication that the butterfly keyboard was a dud.
I am always amazed at the lengths people will go to to defend Apple. People willing to peddle spin and nonsense to dismiss any criticism regardless of how valid. It's very odd. I'm not sure I could be bothered even if I was on the payroll.
I am always amazed at the lengths people will go to to defend Apple. People willing to peddle spin and nonsense to dismiss any criticism regardless of how valid. It's very odd. I'm not sure I could be bothered even if I was on the payroll.
So the keyboard is bad because there is a program addressing them? And no, they were not redesigning the keyboard, they added a membrane and used some other materials on a plastic thing and a metal spring. Because the whole mechanism (aside from the so called plastic butterfly) is a metal dome that makes contact with the board. The fact that so many technicians inside or outside of Apple can't figure it out could be just the manufacturing tolerances being exceeded.
And then the drama! a lot of people can't update because the keyboards are bad. They didn't use them, but they must be bad because there's a repair program, right? What about the screens on the previous models, the battery on the 2015 MBP or GPU on 2011 models?
BTW the keyboard swap on older models included the top case and the battery (done by Apple).
Incorrect. The "peak draw" issue you're claiming was exclusive to the iPhone is actually just a standard limitation of lithium ion battery technology in any smartphone. When the battery is EOD, it may have problems supplying proper voltage. When the battery is subjected to cold conditions, it may have problems supplying proper voltage. When the battery charge is too low, it may have problems supplying proper voltage. This is what I mean when I say the issue was largely ignorance of how lithium ion batteries work. And notice that 2 out of those 3 standard limitations for lithium ion batteries and voltage supply have absolutely nothing to do with the age of the battery. They could both happen with brand new batteries, which is one of the reasons I point out that Apple providing discounted batteries was TOTALLY unnecessary.
They’re bad because they’re bad. My 2016 MBP keyboard failed for the b-key. No amount of compressed air solved. Failed within a month of owning it.
Then my wife’s 2018 12” MB keyboard failed for the space bar. No amount of compressed air solved.
Then my MBP failed again, this time the 4 key.
I also own(ed) 2 17” MBPs, 2 MacBook airs, and 3 15” MBPs of various vintages before 2016. None of them ever had any problem with their keyboards. And I own 4 magic keyboards, all of which work fine after many years.
These keyboards suck.
ahh, there you were being so admirably logical, and then you fall into the emotional quagmire ("i don't like the TB so surely no one else does either and it should be eliminated")
You had me at I "prefer arguments that work forward and backward". And then our beautiful relationship fell apart.
Yes they were bad too.
And yes I've got one of these machines, the 13 inch non touchbar, and yes the keyboard is bad and has had to be replaced under warranty. I also owned a 15 inch and again bad keyboard.
Please stop trying to pretend these issues have been invented by people who don't/haven't owned these machines.
Same experience as me.
My 2017 MBP had a problem with repeating characters.
My current 2018 MBP has an issue with the "e" key repeating and the "o" key getting stuck.
Never had this problem with the old keyboards and I have owned MacBook Pros for decades.
So when my 2019's warranty runs out, I'll be able to snag a 16" with all the fixes you folks will complain about for that model too!
Technology, delivering perfect hardware since... never.
Technology, delivering perfect hardware since... never.