Apple Expected to Adopt Keyboard With Scissor Mechanism for Upcoming 16-inch MacBook Pro

[MistrSynistr]

The keyboard relief will soon pass once you realized you're trapped in dongle hell seconds later.

 

[ionutc]

Yes they were bad too.

And yes I've got one of these machines, the 13 inch non touchbar, and yes the keyboard is bad and has had to be replaced under warranty. I also owned a 15 inch and again bad keyboard.

Please stop trying to pretend these issues have been invented by people who don't/haven't owned these machines.

I'm not saying the issues were invented, because they are real, but they are overblown by people that didn't use them.

 

[Rob_2811]

So when my 2019's warranty runs out, I'll be able to snag a 16" with all the fixes you folks will complain about for that model too!

Technology, delivering perfect hardware since... never.

Again its a bit of a myth that people complain regardless, people complain about defective product design.

I have literally never heard anybody complain about the MacBook Pro/Air Keyboard prior to 2016.

 

[ionutc]

Same experience as me.

My 2017 MBP had a problem with repeating characters.

My current 2018 MBP has an issue with the "e" key repeating and the "o" key getting stuck.

Never had this problem with the old keyboards and I have owned MacBook Pros for decades.

Try holding the laptop upside down and on the sides and press teh repeating key multiple times. I've had that problem and it went away. None of the keys that repeated looked like it was failing though. The bigger problem is that you can't just pop the keys out to clean the mechanism because of the risk of damaging them. Yeah, it's a sensitive keyboard, i'll give you that and yes, there are issues out there.
[doublepost=1564151484][/doublepost]

Again its a bit of a myth that people complain regardless, people complain about defective product design.

I have literally never heard anybody complain about the MacBook Pro/Air Keyboard prior to 2016.

And no repair program until these pesky keyboards.

 

[gnipgnop]

I have literally never heard anybody complain about the MacBook Pro/Air Keyboard prior to 2016.

And yet YouTube is full of do-it-yourself videos on repairing keyboards and keys on pre-2016 MacBook Pros. The idea that scissor mechanism keyboards didn't fail is completely false. They have all the same kinds of issues that people report with the butterfly mechanism...sticky keys, keys that stop working, total failure of the keyboard.

 

[Rob_2811]

And yet YouTube is full of do-it-yourself videos on repairing keyboards and keys on pre-2016 MacBook Pros. The idea that scissor mechanism keyboards didn't fail is completely false. They have all the same kinds of issues that people report with the butterfly mechanism...sticky keys, keys that stop working, total failure of the keyboard.

Nobody is saying it didn't fail. There will always be hardware failure but just how widespread the complaints are about the butterflykeyboards should tell you all you need to know.

Interestingly no warranty extension programme for the old keyboards..

 

[duffman9000]

Bring back all the useful ports, while you're at it.

View attachment 849844

No sale. Missing PS2 port.

 

[gnipgnop]

Nobody is saying it didn't fail. There will always be hardware failure but just how widespread the complaints are about the butterflykeyboards should tell you all you need to know.

"Widespread" is meaningless without hard numbers. Apple doesn't provide them. Neither do PC laptop manufacturers. So you can't draw any conclusions there in regards to who reports them. Nobody does. As for internet comments, everyone knows that some people may be legitimate users of the product and some people may not be. So no real conclusions to be drawn there either. Can you draw a conclusion from Apple extending the keyboard warranty? Not really, because Apple is the only one that knows whether this is the result of lack of confidence in the design or the exact opposite. And typically companies that offer longer warranties are more confident, not less confident.

 

[Rob_2811]

"Widespread" is meaningless without hard numbers. Apple doesn't provide them. Neither do PC laptop manufacturers. So you can't draw any conclusions there in regards to who reports them. Nobody does. As for internet comments, everyone knows that some people may be legitimate users of the product and some people may not be. So no real conclusions to be drawn there either. Can you draw a conclusion from Apple extending the keyboard warranty? Not really, because Apple is the only one that knows whether this is the result of lack of confidence in the design or the exact opposite. And typically companies that offer longer warranties are more confident, not less confident.

Ok, yeah its all a conspiracy.

 

[gnipgnop]

Ok, yeah its all a conspiracy.

I can't prove that it's a conspiracy and you can't prove that it isn't. I can provide anecdotes about scissor keyboards failing and you can provide anecdotes about butterfly keyboards failing.

 

[Nugget]

I can't prove that it's a conspiracy and you can't prove that it isn't. I can provide anecdotes about scissor keyboards failing and you can provide anecdotes about butterfly keyboards failing.

We don't need to rely on anecdotes to understand the situation. The existence of the Apple Keyboard Service Program for the butterfly keyboards is compelling evidence that the butterfly keyboards are more problematic than previous keyboards.

The fact that the butterfly keyboards are comparatively unreliable is not a controversial opinion whatsoever. I'm not sure why you seem so resistant to this. Apple have acknowledged that:

* Letters or characters repeat unexpectedly
* Letters or characters do not appear
* Key(s) feel "sticky" or do not respond in a consistent manner

This sort of direct and unambiguous acknowledgment of problems is unusual for Apple and certainly indicates that the current keyboard is unlike previous keyboards with regard to reliability.

 

[Rob_2811]

We don't need to rely on anecdotes to understand the situation. The existence of the Apple Keyboard Service Program for the butterfly keyboards is compelling evidence that the butterfly keyboards are more problematic than previous keyboards.

The fact that the butterfly keyboards are comparatively unreliable is not a controversial opinion whatsoever. I'm not sure why you seem so resistant to this. Apple have acknowledged that:



This sort of direct and unambiguous acknowledgment of problems is unusual for Apple and certainly indicates that the current keyboard is unlike previous keyboards with regard to reliability.

Exactly.

But people just prefer to believe that Apple has implemented the Apple Keyboard Service Program to show that they have confidence in the product (shortly before they move back to the old mechanism!).

 

[gnipgnop]

The fact that the butterfly keyboards are comparatively unreliable is not a controversial opinion whatsoever.

Unreliable compared to what? My original post in this thread was related to the total lack of comparisons to be made. What constituted "reliability" in Apple's prior scissor keyboards? What about reliability in PC laptops? What are the standards? I've already pointed out that scissor keyboards replicate all the same issues that people complain about with butterfly keyboards...sticky keys, keys that stop working, problems with dust/crumbs, total keyboard failure etc. Since that's true, how do you rate "reliability" other than with numbers/percentages? Where are the numbers? Nobody provides them. Not Apple. Not PC laptop manufacturers.
[doublepost=1564156157][/doublepost]

But people just prefer to believe that Apple has implemented the Apple Keyboard Service Program to show that they have confidence in the product (shortly before they move back to the old mechanism!).

The reports are that it's a new design that improves on prior scissor mechanisms, not a return to the 2015 and earlier designs. And I can already guess what tech sites and tech influencers are going to do: rush to be the first ones to say that the new scissor design has problems.

 

[ux4all]

Let's take a big step back here that we can all agree...

1. We are in a forum that will ultimately create confirmation bias. If you are angry about something or a piece of evidence (keyboard program) appears, you will find a unified group of people that agree.
2. That programs like this are common across almost every industry. The fact that Apple is delivering a fix (versus antenna issues of the iPhone 4) is unique as they usually don't do that. (I believe that the outlying nature of the Apple approach has created a sense that it is a huge problem... whereas, I believe that Steve Jobs was overly concerned with the brand and that was why we never saw a program like this in the past).
3. There is in fact an issue, but there are issues all the time. WIth the information age in full swing, we are far more aware of issues and quicker to react.

My keyboard very well may fail in short order (my 2019 is my daily driver nearly 8 hours+ a day). My Subaru, has had 2 recalls already (fuel gauge, the head unit) that were significant. The seat base was not installed correctly on most of my model year, so that was fixed too). Do I lament and get frustrated or do I respect the fact that I have 0 out of pocket costs on my repairs for a vehicle that I use less than 1 hour a day total.

It isn't whether you have problems, it's how you respond to them.

 

[oscarbonill]

I hope to God this is true, and that the Macs look like the render.

EDIT:
My 2011 17" now necessitates a shell script I wrote to start up while avoiding the discrete graphics card because of the graphics issues those models were prone to.

Hopefully I can keep it going long enough to redo my entire Apple infrastructure in 2020 (2011/12 iMacs and MBPs) and move to just one of these and an iPhone.

Would you be able to share that script? I was having the same issue with my late 2011 MBP and I was unable to disable csrutil in order to make this switch permanent. I have to type in the nvram commands every time my machine powers off.

 

[frosty18]

I had luck with both the 2017 and 2018 models so far, but my wife's 2018 from December needs a replacement already. The butterfly just sucks.

But to the OP, if you want a 13, you probably will have to live with the butterfly and the 2nd gen membrane. Just don't eat or drink while you use it and you should be ok

I never eat close to my MacBook and keep it clean. I’ve seen people be super careless and messy and those are probably the people that have so many failures

 

[smetvid]

Us working Pro's don't want to fiddle looking though our bags to find that dam dongle! And if its forgotten what then?

We need onboard USB-A ports (2) We still want the USB-C (4) But the rear two need to be setup to support a MagSafe plug thats flush with the case. We also need SD card support and Ethernet.

Its all within the PCH logic! This is not a big hurdle to do. Remember Function over Form!

You make it sound like a bad infomercial where the actor spills a can of soup all over themselves trying to use a can opener. It is only fumbling if you want it to be. It really isn't that big of a deal. I do it all the time and you can buy a small pair of USB-c to USB3 adapters for $6. Keep a bunch in your bag and you should never forget them.

This is such a non issue.

 

[ignatius345]

That would make a lot of people very happy; makes navigation screens so much easier.

As a writer, I’m a constant user of the different modifier+arrow combos for navigating and selecting text without taking my hands off the keyboard. It’s a massive massive timesaver.
[doublepost=1564169174][/doublepost]

I never eat close to my MacBook and keep it clean. I’ve seen people be super careless and messy and those are probably the people that have so many failures

Sigh. This is been said many many times but I’ll repeat it for you since you don’t seem to understand: a keyboard should be able to function in the same environment people live in. That means dust, that means the normal stuff that’s in and around your working environment. If you have to use your keyboard in some kind of special sterile environment, it’s a poor design, period.

And once again, the previous scissor switch keyboards did not jam up every time they were exposed to a random piece of dust or whatever. The stupid narrative people like you keep bringing up that implies anyone whose crappy butterfly keyboard has failed must be a slob, well, that’s ********.

The fact is, the butterfly keyboard was very aptly named. Like a butterfly, it’s thin, beautiful, and dies quickly if touched too much.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

Someone else asked so here's the full steps:

1. Boot to single user mode:

POWER, then CMD +r + s

2. Create 'start.sh' script at the root level:

cd / (in case you're not there for some odd reason)
sudo vi start.sh
(Enter your admin password)

3. Edit the file:

i (enter insert mode in the command line so you can write in the file)

4. Insert the below:

!/bin/bash
nvram fa4ce28d-b62f-4c99-9cc3-6815686e30f9:gpu-power-prefs=%01%00%00%00
reboot

5. Save and exit:

ESC :wq

6. Assign the right perms for the file to run:

sudo chmod 755 start.sh
(Enter your admin password)

7. Execute file:

./start.sh

Computer should reboot (without the striped screen) normally. I have an SSD in there so it boots in about 5 secs (High Sierra).

I haven't put any effort in automating this further, since I rarely reboot my machine. Once it crashes (for whatever reason) I just boot into single user mode again and run the start.sh.

 

[Zdigital2015]

You make it sound like a bad infomercial where the actor spills a can of soup all over themselves trying to use a can opener. It is only fumbling if you want it to be. It really isn't that big of a deal. I do it all the time and you can buy a small pair of USB-c to USB3 adapters for $6. Keep a bunch in your bag and you should never forget them.

This is such a non issue.

At my previous employer, I telecommuted...so I had an El Gato Thunderbolt 2 Dock at the office (part of our lease) and one at my residence. I switched to the 2016 MacBook Pro and I bought the TB2<->TB3 adapter and kept on trucking. I have two Apple USB-C to USB-A dongles that I rarely use, because any USB peripheral with a detachable USB cable on the device end got replaced with a high quality USB-C to whatever (Type-B 3.0, Mini-B, Micro-B, Type B 2.0, Micro-B USB 3.0) and other than one less than stellar USB-C to USB 2.0 Type-B for my Focusrite audio interface, I have had zero problems. Come to find out, the problem with my Focusrite was a KEXT that has since been deprecated. I removed it and now all is well. I also have a SandDisk USB-A/USB-C flash drive and my SanDisk Extreme Portable SSD has a clever USB Type-A dongle that come with it should I need it.

I really have never been able to live without a Dock since the 2012 15" Retina MacBook Pro became my daily driver and then we leased the 2015 model and the 2016-2019 really is no big deal once you've adjusted your mindset to make sure you are equipped. I have zero use for a VGA or HDMI adapter in my day to day and so I don't own any. If I needed them, I would have them in my messenger bag. If I needed a CFast reader, I would make sure I owned one, or an SDXC reader, XQD, Red Mini Mag, et al. because if I was freelancing in that sort of creative capacity, I want to make sure I have the right equipment to show I am prepared and I am a professional.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

As a writer, I’m a constant user of the different modifier+arrow combos for navigating and selecting text without taking my hands off the keyboard. It’s a massive massive timesaver.
[doublepost=1564169174][/doublepost]
Sigh. This is been said many many times but I’ll repeat it for you since you don’t seem to understand: a keyboard should be able to function in the same environment people live in. That means dust, that means the normal stuff that’s in and around your working environment. If you have to use your keyboard in some kind of special sterile environment, it’s a poor design, period.

And once again, the previous scissor switch keyboards did not jam up every time they were exposed to a random piece of dust or whatever. The stupid narrative people like you keep bringing up that implies anyone whose crappy butterfly keyboard has failed must be a slob, well, that’s ********.

The fact is, the butterfly keyboard was very aptly named. Like a butterfly, it’s thin, beautiful, and dies quickly if touched too much.

I've been eating in front of and over my 2011 17" every single day since I got it (in Feb 2011) and NEVER had a keyboard problem. Ever. I cannot remember having any keyboard problems aside from when I spilled liquid on my 2011 Magic Keyboard. All my Macs are from 2011/2012.

Incidentally, I've been eating over my WORK laptop (Lenove T470s) for 2 years or so and haven't had a problem yet either (and it feels wonderful to type on).

The moment I heard Apple say I needed to clean an MB/P keyboard with compressed air, I knew something was awry. My computers are a long-term investment (clearly). And I am strictly personal use with Macs. So, I'm holding off until they FIX this to plunk down any money to replace my now obsolete hardware.

 

[ignatius345]

I've been eating in front of and over my 2011 17" every single day since I got it (in Feb 2011) and NEVER had a keyboard problem. Ever. I cannot remember having any keyboard problems aside from when I spilled liquid on my 2011 Magic Keyboard. All my Macs are from 2011/2012.

Incidentally, I've been eating over my WORK laptop (Lenove T470s) for 2 years or so and haven't had a problem yet either (and it feels wonderful to type on).

The moment I heard Apple say I needed to clean an MB/P keyboard with compressed air, I knew something was awry. My computers are a long-term investment (clearly). And I am strictly personal use with Macs. So, I'm holding off until they FIX this to plunk down any money to replace my now obsolete hardware.

Same. And going back further, I’ve seen absolutely grotesque old desktop keyboards with all manner of stuff gunked into them. And yet they kept working. Robust keyboards have been a solved problem for years... at least they were until Jony Ive decided to make ones that were only safe to use in that sterile white void from the Apple product videos.

 

[smetvid]

No, just no. The current USB-C ports won't be able to magically support any future tech, even if that future tech uses the physical USB-C connector. There is more to the hardware than just the connector, the circuitry behind it has to support it. You can buy laptops now with USB-C ports that don't support HDMI for example, because they don't have that part of the circuitry implemented. Those particular USB-C ports won't ever support HDMI. USB-C is actually a huge mess, and not at all the magical one-port-for-all that you are imagining. And worse, the physical connector is badly designed, and is prone to working loose and dropping the connection. USB-C is a horrible disaster.

And duh, your 2011 doesn't have TB3 because it didn't exist back then.

Your logic is flawed. Dumping all ports bar USB-C is a failed idea. You will note that the new Mac Pro and iMac Pro, both have a multitude of ports, including USB-C, but also including all sorts of still useful ports. The new Pro Workflow Group at Apple is bringing back the ports, and I will be astounded if the new 16" MacBook Pro doesn't bring back the ports also.
[doublepost=1564108849][/doublepost]

Noooooooo! Haven't you ever had to reboot your mac while there are people sleeping in the same room???!!! The bong was an abomination!

That may be true for some crappy laptops but the MBP does support HDMI and many other standards. Despite how things change in the future TB3 has 4x the bandwidth that USB3.1 has right now so it is a lot more future proof than you think it is. USB-c on its own can be a limitation but not when those USB-c ports are true TB3 ports which the MBP is. TB3 is more like a PCI Express slot than it is a USB connection.

Other Macs have other ports because they have plenty of space to do so. There are a lot of people that would hate to sacrifice two TB3 ports just to add a USB3 and HDMI port. Now perhaps Apple could find a way to keep four TB3 ports and add a single USB3.1 port and I would be ok with that but I will never be ok with sacrificing the number of TB3 ports.

As for HDMI ports they also have standards and older HD rated HDMI ports cannot support 4k displays and so forth. HDMI is also stuck using broadcast standards making it a very limited port for non standard resolutions. I would much rather have TB3 ports that I can adapt as needed to the monitor I want. The 2015 MBP HDMI port for example will not support a 5k display the new 6k display or any future 8k displays. It is forever limited to HD and 4k displays. Even gamers that prefer high refresh rates like 144 hz now prefer DP over HDMI. HDMI is a nice to have but not everybody needs it which is why it is ok to not build it in. Thanks to TB3 I can probably support 8k displays in the future with the proper adapter and add whatever eGPU I want to support beyond that if need be.
[doublepost=1564171986][/doublepost]

I don't think anyone is suggesting we ditch USB-C. What we're saying is, we all have tons of devices that use other ports, and we need those ports to have a useful, dare I say, "Pro", computer. I have yet to even see a USB-C device IRL, but I plug in USB3.1 and DisplayPort every day, and quite regularly use my HDMI port and SD card reader.

Yes and a tiny little fingernail size adapter is easy to plug in. They are small enough to even keep them plugged in if you really are that forgetful.

This is such a non issue of the highest first world problem magnitude. I have been a video producer, UX designer and mobile app developer and never once have I ever felt somehow USB-C was holding me back.

It literally takes 2 seconds to grab a HDMI adapter and plug it in. We do it every single day in the office at work. The UX team does it and the mobile app dev team does it so don't talk to me about "pro" use. None of us ever once complained about using adapters. Even the business side does it without even thinking about it. It really is a non issue for the hundreds of people I work with that use USB devices and HDMI ports for presentations.

 

[majorsl]

Thank goodness. I love my MBP, but it seems that I'm always "blowing out the keys." The smallest thing seems to get wedged. It isn't like I'm eating over it either, usually typing on my desk. Maybe I need to wear a hairnet...

 

[Cloudane]

Press 'F' to pay respects to decent Apple keyboards.

Just don't press it on a butterfly keyboard or you'll get 2 of them.