Apple Facing Antitrust Probe Over 'Sign in With Apple' and Other Developer Complaints

[BuddyRich]

I know many users will be "Oh shut up, you just don't want to accept it", but there's a bit of a valid argument here. In a ways, it's kind of discriminatory where if you wanted to make things easier for your user by adding a single sign on kind of solution like FB/Twitter/Google, you must add Apple, or you're stuck with regular ol' username/password. Otherwise you're booted from the service. "Other services are optional, but we're mandatory". It's kind of like saying "If you want to use your Visa or MasterCard here, you're required to have a store credit card too, even though you might not use it. Otherwise, just accept cash."

It's stripping away the liberty of the developers to add services without adding a native service so that they're always there. I personally like SIWA and use it, but it kinda sucks that it's such a heavy requirement for a sign in feature. I know I'll get flack from users (heck, Apple users are already becoming a little skeptical of 3rd party developers), but to quote Marilyn Manson "something beautiful, or something free".

Im actually all for SIWA and use it when I can but on the surface it does seem like a clear class of tied selling. I mean something similar got MS in trouble in the 90s... forcing IE with Windows.

Im curious does anyone know if Google requires Sign-In with Google in Android Apps if you use Sign-in with Twitter or Facebook? Is Apple the only maker that forces developers to bundle its sign-in option if you use a competing option?

Is sign-in with apple offered on android at all. I think it is on websites - but maybe only via Safari...

 

[dontwalkhand]

Im actually all for SIWA and use it when I can but on the surface it does seem like a clear class of tied selling. I mean something similar got MS in trouble in the 90s... forcing IE with Windows.

Im curious does anyone know if Google requires Sign-In with Google in Android Apps if you use Sign-in with Twitter or Facebook? Is Apple the only maker that forces developers to bundle its sign-in option if you use a competing option?

Is sign-in with apple offered on android at all. I think it is on websites - but maybe only via Safari...

It works on any browser, it just pulls up a page to type in your Apple ID and password instead on non-Safari browsers.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

So are developers actually angry because apple has done something bad or are they angry that they’re not harvesting the personal data of all of their users? If I can use Google to login without complaint from devs, what makes Apple so different? Or do Apple share less data than Google?

I don’t get the antitrust arguments. I’ve seen many a dev point out that App Store fees (for example) provide hosting, big finding, promotion, update delivery and payment handling which outside the App Store would cost a fair bit.

 

[dumoore]

I like the privacy but I tried logging into an (expensive) subscription website on my wife's laptop but there was no way to log in. At least provide a way for 'sign in with apple' and use 2FA for 'other apple id'.

 

[macsimcon]

This is outrageous. Of COURSE Apple has a monopoly on app stores on iOS devices. Sony has a monopoly on a store for PS games. So what? Apple doesn't control the smartphone market, Google does.

If Apple imposed onerous conditions AND they had the majority share of the market, the DOJ would have something to complain about. But we don't live in that world.

This is just stupid.

 

[dontwalkhand]

I like the privacy but I tried logging into an (expensive) subscription website on my wife's laptop but there was no way to log in. At least provide a way for 'sign in with apple' and use 2FA for 'other apple id'.

That is on the website owner, because Sign in with Apple works fine on non-Apple browsers and platforms on the websites. Nintendo does this.

 

[Suckfest 9001]

Im actually all for SIWA and use it when I can but on the surface it does seem like a clear class of tied selling. I mean something similar got MS in trouble in the 90s... forcing IE with Windows.

Im curious does anyone know if Google requires Sign-In with Google in Android Apps if you use Sign-in with Twitter or Facebook? Is Apple the only maker that forces developers to bundle its sign-in option if you use a competing option?

Is sign-in with apple offered on android at all. I think it is on websites - but maybe only via Safari...

Yeah it’s an atrocious sign in experience, opening a web page to your OS provider’s competitor’s portal.. like wut

 

[mansplains]

Apple SSO is wonderful for loyalty accounts or what could almost be considered a burner account. I can make an account for McDonald's within their app, order food with Apple Pay, and the only blatant information passed on was my name. This pipeline of not having to supply my address etc to every company who doesn't need it is much needed, especially in the era of smart lightbulbs etc needing an account.

 

[dontwalkhand]

Yeah it’s an atrocious sign in experience, opening a web page to your OS provider’s competitor portal.. like wut

Apple is like Tesla. Everything is generally done through the one company.

Just like how with Teslas, only Teslas can charge at Tesla charging stations, only Teslas software is allowed on the car infotainment system, and everything is managed through your Tesla account, etc. The Tesla charging connector = Lightning cable. Most other EVs uses CCS...CCS, is "USB-C"

 

[Ethosik]

Wait, what? App store rules make it difficult to switch to another device makers. Does Windows make it easy to switch to Linux?

With .NET 6, even UI based apps will be simple to switch to Linux.

 

[aesc80]

Im actually all for SIWA and use it when I can but on the surface it does seem like a clear class of tied selling. I mean something similar got MS in trouble in the 90s... forcing IE with Windows.

Im curious does anyone know if Google requires Sign-In with Google in Android Apps if you use Sign-in with Twitter or Facebook? Is Apple the only maker that forces developers to bundle its sign-in option if you use a competing option?

Is sign-in with apple offered on android at all. I think it is on websites - but maybe only via Safari...

I took a look at the Google Sign In requirements, and all it mentions is UI stuff (logos, graphics, placements), but that's it. It's not like you're locked into Google Sign In if you use a third party SSO. If memory serves me well (cause while I have access to Android devices, I'm not as up to date on the OS's like Apple), the apps on Android uses Google Sign In as an easier way to streamline yourself into the app, but not as a requirement. Where as for Apple, its a necessity in order to be on their platform.

SIWA is offered on Android, but it's more of the classic "username/password" sign in through a webpage, instead of the fancy pants FaceID/TouchID/unlock code like Apple. I think there's also a 2 factor authentication too (login + text or use your other Apple devices for authentication).

 

[thislsmadness]

You didn’t disagree properly - I never said this was bad for consumers. I love this feature and use it all the time but requiring devs to implement it is plain wrong and anticompetitive and clearly many other actual devs out there agree

It depends on what perspective is taken. From the perspective of Apple and many of its users, this is a security/privacy feature and developers should not be given a choice of whether or not to support it. Its necessary because of how negligent developers have been with user email. Unfortunately, we don't have a government that is worth a damn so it is Apple's responsibility to maintain the safety and privacy of iOS and/or provide its users with the tools to do it themselves... which is something sign in with Apple tries to do.

Mind you, I think there are other areas of iOS/Apple practices that deserve this scrutiny, I just don't think sign in with apple is one of them.

 

[Ethosik]

You didn’t disagree properly - I never said this was bad for consumers. I love this feature and use it all the time but requiring devs to implement it is plain wrong and anticompetitive and clearly many other actual devs out there agree

Anti-competitive is typically involving consumer's impact NOT developers.

 

[1984]

But is ”Sign in with Apple“ a requirement? From what I understand it is an option, not mandatory for users to select or use. Their site also states that participating apps can choose to support this feature. Is this now a requirement for all apps to accept?

It is a requirement for developers to offer it as a login option for users.

 

[1258186]

Apple’s antitrust problems are mounting up. They can’t possibly escape all this attention without making significant changes.

 

[Suckfest 9001]

It depends on what perspective is taken. From the perspective of Apple and many of its users, this is a security/privacy feature and developers should not be given a choice of whether or not to support it. Its necessary because of how negligent developers have been with user email. Unfortunately, we don't have a government that is worth a damn so it is Apple's responsibility to maintain the safety and privacy of iOS and/or provide its users with the tools to do it themselves... which is something sign in with Apple tries to do.

Mind you, I think there are other areas of iOS/Apple practices that deserve this scrutiny, I just don't think sign in with apple is one of them.

Yeah so it boils down to whether people are comfortable with the fact that apple is trying to play the login police. It makes less sense when you consider that it’s not mandatory if the app hosts its own accounts, which is far more likely to be hacked versus Google and Facebook. This is why it’s more anti-competitive than it is Apple playing the login police and trying to keep people safe

 

[Wildkraut]

jesus I never thought apple would get so good at marketing to the point where people are literally begging to give up their freedom and own individual capacity for critical thought

It’s not the first time this happened, just look at all the history of humanity, this happened multiple times. There is also a good german movie that shows this sheep like behavior.

The Wave (2008 film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Suckfest 9001]

It’s not the first time this happened, just look at all the history of humanity, this happened multiple times. There is also a good german movie that shows this sheep like behavior.

The Wave (2008 film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you for the suggestion it’ll be an interesting watch for sure

 

[317342]

"Developers are unhappy."

...and water is wet.

 

[GadgetBen]

The biggest issue with 'Sign in with Apple' is that Apple are the only company that require you to have an App Store app in order to display an image for your brand.

Many companies just want to use the service for web based apps only.

 

[Wildkraut]

"Developers are unhappy."

...and water is wet.

...and Apples rot faster once bitten.

 

[Ethosik]

All apps that have other sign in services. I thought that was sort of implied given that Sign In with Apple has been discussed to exhaustion but sorry I’ll make it clearer going forward

Thank you I was spending some time looking at some pages and ToS and stuff to see if even a Hello World app needed it

 

[coolfactor]

In security, this is called a middle-man attack giving Apple visibility into all your email accounts. Plus, domain name registrars have implemented alias email proxy long before Apple.

Completely untrue. The whole essence of Apple providing a Sign-In feature is that they have built in around user privacy. Apple doeesn't "gain visibility" into email accounts.

The main motivation for the other companies (eg. Google, Facebook, etc.) is to get your information. Have you ever used Facebook as a sign-in service to another company? You are presented with a disclosure that "Company X will be able to read your profile information, your posts, etc.". By contrast, Apple doesn't give any personal information to other companies. Two totally different business models build into the same user feature (sign-in).

I don't see this as anti-competitive. Users are given plenty of choices, with Apple being just one more. What's anticompetitive is when a company *forces* a user to sign in using a single option or limited options.

You know those newspaper sites that have implemented a "discussion feature" on each article, yet it's powered by Facebook? Talk about having your head in the sand. They are limiting discussion to only those that have a Facebook account.

 

[aesc80]

"Developers are unhappy."

...and water is wet.

And chefs and cooks can have short tempers when people keep rejecting food over petty requirements.

 

[Ethosik]

That’s a fantastic point. Sign in with FB/Google are platform agnostic, but Apple’s 100% locks you in

Not sure what you mean by this. I can Sign in with Apple on Skillshare on Microsoft Edge on Windows 10 on my custom built Windows PC. Nothing Apple hardware in it.