Apple Facing Antitrust Probe Over 'Sign in With Apple' and Other Developer Complaints

[Altivec88]

Exactly. The fact they can randomly come up with new mandatory rules is ridiculous. Not every dev/company can just pick up prescribed mandatory development work from Apple just like that. It’s super anti competitive because it basically asserts that “if our competitors dipped their hands into your login process then we require that you add us as well because AppStore rules lol”

it’s just not OK. I love the feature but I don’t love this inherent dipping their hands in and forcing developers to do stuff with their app. They provide a storefront and it shouldn’t ever require mandatory additions to app code that’s just ridiculous

Welcome to life. I get changes to End User Licensing Agreements all the time (Banks, Software, etc). It doesn't matter if I been using that bank or software for 20 years. Rules get added and changed all the time. We were highly invested in Adobe software and it was ridiculous they changed to subscription only, but its their right as a company. All I can control is if I agree to their new rules or not. I didn't sit there and cry over it and hope governments short on cash meddle in businesses by screaming "anti-competive" as a guise to get easy fine money. Instead I chose to slowly remove all Adobe products from our company and moved on with my life.

This does not affect consumers in any way because Apple did not say you must remove other sign-ins, so from a consumer perspective, this just adds more choice. From a developer perspective, it's exactly what I have stated above. You sign an agreement when you become a developer. This agreement states you must follow the rules and that the rules can change at any time without notice. It is also common knowledge that you can leave at any time. Bottom line. as a developer, if the rules exceed the rewards, then don't develop for that OS. There are many other platforms to develop for instead.

iOS is a highly lucrative OS because it attracts a certain type of user that spends money. The problem is, it attracts this type of user is because of "the rules".

 

[Wildkraut]

Welcome to life. I get changes to End User Licensing Agreements all the time (Banks, Software, etc). It doesn't matter if I been using that bank or software for 20 years. Rules get added and changed all the time. We were highly invested in Adobe software and it was ridiculous they changed to subscription only, but its their right as a company. All I can control is if I agree to their new rules or not.

Wrong!

Used software firms win small victory in shrinking on-premises world

US next battleground as vendors flee to the cloud

www.theregister.com

 

[twilson]

It would be equally anti-competitive if suddenly Facebook, Twitter and Google decide to enforce the exclusion of SIWA, if devs wants to use their services. It must be in the hands of the developer to decide what kind of sign-in method he wants to offer in his Apps.

The key difference in your example is exclusion, rather than Apple’s requested inclusion is “100% anti-competitive behaviour”. How is that not blindingly obvious?

 

[Baritone_Guy]

In security, this is called a middle-man attack giving Apple visibility into all your email accounts. Plus, domain name registrars have implemented alias email proxy long before Apple.

First it is called an MITM or Man In the Middle Attack And this is not that. Second, it doesn’t give apple visibility into anything.

 

[Wildkraut]

The key difference in your example is exclusion, rather than Apple’s requested inclusion is “100% anti-competitive behaviour”. How is that not blindingly obvious?

Ahh I see, like excluding third party AppStores, right. Time to enforce side loading then...

 

[Wildkraut]

First it is called an MITM or Man In the Middle Attack. Second, it doesn’t give apple visibility into anything.

You clearly have no clue what kind of information and relationships, server side web service access logs can reveal.

 

[Christian 5G]

I have multiple email accounts that I use and each has its own purpose. I gotta admit the Sign In with Apple is a pretty neat option especially that it limits all the spam crap.

 

[antiprotest]

So let's make it fair and force the devs to also implement Sign in with Apple on their apps on all other platforms.

 

[rictus007]

So it’s a monopoly to force more than one option to login ?

 

[SDJim]

I support this investigation - I think that requiring all devs to implement this is super anti-competitive and is a thorn in the side for many developers that have to support this in cases where it clearly messes up the flow of their registration process. Especially with how it was just shoehorned into agreements without a concept of grandfathering out of it.

I think you're omitting, importantly, that Apple only requires "Sign-in with Apple" where dev's are already making third-party sign-in services available. Want to only allow people to use their email and create a password? Done deal. Adding Sign-in-with-Apple is also baked into the development tools provided to the developers for free by - you guessed it - Apple.

If it were some sweeping, arbitrary requirement, sure, I'd agree with you. But it isn't. If you're going to give people the opportunity to have their identities purchased by Facebook, you're going to provide them the chance to not even give it fully to you. Not anti-competitive at all. If anything, it's introducing new competition to a tiny niche (third-party sign-ins).

 

[Altivec88]

Wrong!

Used software firms win small victory in shrinking on-premises world

US next battleground as vendors flee to the cloud

www.theregister.com

Why am I wrong? Because one judge or one government ruled on something that it feels should be a "rule". Isn't that the same thing that is being argued. Some developers are saying it isn't fair that Apple keeps changing "the rules", Apple can say the same thing. It's no fair these countries keep changing the rules. Just like I say that the developers choice is to drop that OS if its not lucrative, I say the same thing to Apple. If the rules make it so that their business is not lucrative to run in that country, then don't do business in that country. Apple has no control over the rules these countries make just like developers have no control over the rules apple make. Sometimes the rules are warranted, sometimes they are just flat out dumb but in the end, if there is money to be made, businesses will follow. If there isn't then that business will slowly fade away. The pocketbook is how things always get decided.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I know many users will be "Oh shut up, you just don't want to accept it", but there's a bit of a valid argument here.

No, there’s not. BUT, your attempt to create validity where none exists should be commended. It was a herculean task and you stepped up to it. Bravo.

 

[frenchcamp49er]

I support this investigation - I think that requiring all devs to implement this is super anti-competitive and is a thorn in the side for many developers that have to support this in cases where it clearly messes up the flow of their registration process. Especially with how it was just shoehorned into agreements without a concept of grandfathering out of it.

So can’t I just use an alternative email that I only use for signing in? Apple is protecting your privacy. I never use my main email to signup for anything. When I can I use Apple sign in. Everything they send goes straight to the trash.

 

[jonnysods]

Man, it may lock people into the ecosystem but I sure appreciate it. With the number of data breaches in companies these days, I like that my info isn't scattered across the cybersphere.

 

[d7d19285f0bd48]

You didn’t disagree properly - I never said this was bad for consumers. I love this feature and use it all the time but requiring devs to implement it is plain wrong and anticompetitive and clearly many other actual devs out there agree

The App Store is filled with guidelines that require "devs" to implement a variety of features. Not sure how this is any different. And if an App is already offering SSO (such as this requirement) its like 30 seconds of additional (copy/paste) code.

There is only one reason to be against 'Sign In with Apple" if an App already offers other SSOs and that is because devs want to mooch your data for profit. That is it.

 

[DJMarty]

They want us to log in thru them so they can reach us about some important information about our car's extended warranty.

 

[hsilver]

Can someone explain how the Apple sign-in interacts with the site? To someone not very savvy about security, it looks like I'm on someone's site and a pop-up window asks for my Apple ID AND password! Someone please tell me why it is stupid to think this?

 

[jdawgnoonan]

Wait, what? App store rules make it difficult to switch to another device makers. Does Windows make it easy to switch to Linux?

Actually Microsoft does not do much that makes it difficult to switch to Linux. Many of their primary applications even have Linux versions, but Microsoft service accounts are all compatible with Linux applications (unlike Apple's). Whereas, anything using your Apple login with two factor turned on isn't even compatible with standard two factor authenticator apps. Instead, you have to get the stupid iDevice 2 factor prompt that won't work for you if you don't have an iDevice handy and then request that you be sent a text due to their incompatible two factor prompt.

 

[I7guy]

Actually they don't do anything that makes it difficult to switch to Linux.

And Apple doesn't hinder switching to another phone, e.g. Android. There are ways to move your personal data across operating systems. You might not get the exact apps, but it's the same with moving from Windows to Linux.

 

[Kabeyun]

This monopoly crap is such a crock, and the dev fee thing is a joke when you understand that Apple doesn’t charge any more than anyone else. I’d much rather see regulators go after Comcast for having a monopoly over my broadband.

 

[ikramerica]

"complaints on restrictions on location tracking and other forms of tracking that Apple's own apps are not subject to." I believe this is not true at all. is the article factually stating that there are complaints about something that doesn't actually happen, or is the author alleging that these complaints are true? Please clarify, Apple has stated numerous times that these anti-tracking conditions do apply to Apple apps

Apple asks about these features during setup of the phone itself, or when a new iOS version adds features, or the first time you use a feature. They are incredibly upfront about tracking and sharing and options to limit or turn things off. There are also very thorough with options to control sharing information with each built in app.

 

[threesixty360]

Exactly. The fact they can randomly come up with new mandatory rules is ridiculous. Not every dev/company can just pick up prescribed mandatory development work from Apple just like that. It’s super anti competitive because it basically asserts that “if our competitors dipped their hands into your login process then we require that you add us as well because AppStore rules lol”

it’s just not OK. I love the feature but I don’t love this inherent dipping their hands in and forcing developers to do stuff with their app. They provide a storefront and it shouldn’t ever require mandatory additions to app code that’s just ridiculous

They are forcing developers because developers hardly ever want to do the right thing for their users!

the lovely angelic “devs” are the ones who are injecting trackers and selling users data everywhere in the first place! Apple wants to make its customers happy, not just “devs” so it has to enforce things.

you can’t have nice things because collectively you’re a shady bunch of people and you’re upset that youre getting checked on your shadiness.

Apple is customer first, that’s all you need to know.

 

[farewelwilliams]

I think that requiring all devs to implement this is super anti-competitive

Wrong. All devs DO NOT have to implement this.

 

[LeadingHeat]

How is it anticompetitive? More than sign in with google or Facebook? Devs can still use their own email sign in forms, and offer the other provider sign in options, but if they do the latter they’re just asked to also include the Sign In with Apple option. (They don’t need to build much into it, the API is already there for them).

It’s not like it’s only offered on iPhones. You can see the Sign In with Apple on websites too. If they make the API available for Android I can see this whole investigation go away instantly. Which it may be already, I’m not familiar enough with the API.

 

[amartinez1660]

I love Sign in with Apple.

**** Sign in with Facebook. If they offer this, they should have to offer Sign in with Apple.

But is ”Sign in with Apple“ a requirement? From what I understand it is an option, not mandatory for users to select or use. Their site also states that participating apps can choose to support this feature. Is this now a requirement for all apps to accept?

What is Sign in with Apple? - Apple Support

With Sign in with Apple, you can privately sign in to participating third-party apps and websites using your Apple ID.

support.apple.com

I have 2 apps that support this but I elected to continue using my old accounts as opposed to the SIWA option.

I would like to love it too! Just read the linked article and few extra sub-links. I actually have already a few SIWA apps/web, however what’s not clear to me is how to do things like convert my Dropbox or any other regular account to SIWA and keep the history, subscription, comments (if it was a blog), etc. I would convert them in no time... the amount of times I have to change passwords because “this password has been found on a data security breach” is incredible, the amount of times I have been told about an Apple data security breach? zero.

Would be great also regarding these things if they could just ask consumers, ask us if we don’t want SIWA, ask us if we want a fully open platform with all the potential implications for the user, if we would love to have tons of fragmented devices with even different gpu architectures for the same models region dependent (heck, it’s already chaos if the modem differs slightly on this side), if we would like to skip neat amazing comfortable feature because it locks more to the ecosystem (hint, it’s welcomed, else there’s the Android option), etc

But it does allow users to use other platforms....I have used Sign in with apple on Windows computers before, without issues. You just have to type in your Apple ID and password....A great example of this in action, Nintendo accounts. You can even use it on a Switch...

There’s something here.
All those things Switch Store and account, PSN store and accounts (only usable on Sony things and PlayStations for the most part), XBox (arguably the most reaching of the batch), m are mostly closed for their platforms only, yet somehow manage to escape all the antitrust and anticompetitive battles going on.