Apple Facing Potential Suspension of Italian Sales Amid Warranty Concerns

[Drago89]

..

I like Apple, but here i go with Italy And i don't understand all the diss from all americans. What's your problem actually is ? There'r walls in Eu and they are for everyone, including apple, whether they like it or not. If they want to sell their computers, then they have to deal with that. Why americans have to pay for extended warranty, and europeans not, some say ? - well that's your problem

 

[blackburn]

In Denmark - the issue is furthermore, that they don't actually respect the EU directive when you have a problem.

If you contact Apple or any of their resellers, outside the 1year standard Apple coverage - they immediately ask if you have AppleCare, and otherwise refuse to fix the problem without charge.

Eg. battery in MBP goes completely dead after 14 months suddenly. Not just less capacity - NON FUNCTIONAL. First I both call Apple and the Reseller. They both claim that since I'm outside AppleCare coverage they won't fix it.

1. I refer to the law which states a 2 year warranty on all parts of the product.
2. They ignore this, and say that they don't cover replacement of batteries - as this is seen as a naturally decaying part of the product.
3. I highlight the fact, that I'm not complaining that my battery doesn't last the full 4-5 hours. But that it doesn't work at all after 14 months. And it was a sudden incident - going from a status of about 80% to not working in an instant.
4. Same bla bla response
5. I mention to Apple that I actually have an extended AppleCare (I bought because I was taking the MBP to the US on exchange, and wanted the Worldwide coverage).
6. I immediately get an Apple repair number and get the battery exchanged within a few days - no charge

TLDR: It's not only about how they advertise AppleCare. They actively refuse to actually honor up to the local laws - and only honor AppleCare.

The same thing happens in other countries like Portugal. They systematically refuse to provide warranty on products after the 1 year. Asking the complains book sometimes help them to honor the warranty tough. The trick is to buy insurance and when it breaks you just toss the mac/ipod/ipad to ground an claim the "accidental" damage insurance, many friends of mine do that and even some retailer employees suggest that (I wonder why).

 

[alfistas]

Germany and the UK are obviously in the EU, therefore Apple has to provide its employees in these countries with proper benefits like high minimum wages, 6 weeks min paid holiday, paid sick leave, maternity leave, paternity leave etc- things they either don't get or are watered down in the US. On top of that consumers har better rights in the US- this 'warranty' for one, distance selling laws etc. I am NOT saying that is a bad thing, in fact for all the benefits European consumers and employees get compared to US counterparts I think and extra ~5% after VAT is a bargain, rather there is good reason for higher prices.

I was referring to the German ONLINE store. All European Online stores are situated in Ireland...

Need I say more?

 

[allmIne]

With the greatest of respect to the vast majority of informed, personable and genuinely lovely Americans - if I see one more person criticise the European economic situation, with no reference to where that particular economic storm birthed, I'm going to go mad.

Oh, and defending Apple in this regard is taking 'fanboy' to hitherto unreached levels, given it actively harms the consumer.

And one last thing. A poster earlier specifically identified himself as American, then went on to criticise 'Europeans' for taking 2 month vacations. Every time an American says something like that - something so completely basis, so far removed from fact as to be a pointless contribution - the 99.9% of your country that is wonderfully informed on world affairs dies a little inside!

 

[Galatian]

If I had a penny every time this argument came up...

Your statement is simply NOT TRUE! and this is why:

US APPLE STORE
Retina MacBook Pro: $2,799.00 (high end model)

German APPLE STORE
Retina MacBook Pro: $2,954.95 ex.vat 19% (high end model) -- at today's exchange rate from (www.xe.com)

-----------------------------------


The price difference is $155.95


I would do the UK Apple Store too, but I'm not sure my heart can take it...

Ahhhh I don't get this...the German store sells the base model 15" rMacBook Pro for 2279€ which includes VAT and translates to 2870$ as of today. The American Apple store sells the rMBP for 2199$. You'll have to add anything between 0-10% VAT on that which in worst case add another 220$ so that'll be 2420$, which is still 400$ less then what Germans (and other European customers have to pay).

Or when you look at just base price without VAT Germans have to pay 1915€ = 2412$, while Americans pay 2199$ base price...

No matter how you turn and twist it: Europeans pay substantially more...

Europe must be dumb. Apple offers a much more useful one year warranty than anyone else's two year warranty. This absurd.

I gaurantee you Apple's one year warranty is better than almost anyone else's two year warranty.

All this means is Apple will create a much less beneficial two year warranty for Europe. Apple has one of the best warranty programs and services in the world. Good job screwing that up Europe.

Yeah people don't get it. Apple already provides one year of premium warranty with its products. They are not necessarily going to just extend that to two. Instead Italians will get the same crappy two year warranty every company offers and they can buy three years of premium apple care support on top of it. All this does is turn one year of a premium warranty service into two years of worthless warranty service.

Ouch...warranty = warranty. If it's broken because of a material damage they have to fix it...as I already stated Apple Care here in Europe does not offer anything more besides this basic repair. It is not an insurance. Tell me exactly HOW Apple is overing a "premium" warranty?

If you mean by premium the practice of Apple to give you a refurbished phone as a replacement for you entirely new (but broken) phone then you might go with that definition...for the rest of the world who has their head straight on this is just business as usual and nothing special or intact subpar compared to manufactures who actually give you a brand new product.

Oh and whoever said Dell is more expensive: Their warranty is actually 150€ compared to Apples 299€ - 399€ Apple Care here in Europe and they actually offer more service (and an additional insurance). This is definitely much more for much less money.

Please stop being such an Apple Sheep it is embarrassing. This company drives by making people think they need completely useless things which are way overpriced (100€ for 16GB more Flash...really?!? or a 399€ insurance which only adds one more year)

 

[Mad-B-One]

In Denmark - the issue is furthermore, that they don't actually respect the EU directive when you have a problem.

If you contact Apple or any of their resellers, outside the 1year standard Apple coverage - they immediately ask if you have AppleCare, and otherwise refuse to fix the problem without charge.

Eg. battery in MBP goes completely dead after 14 months suddenly. Not just less capacity - NON FUNCTIONAL. First I both call Apple and the Reseller. They both claim that since I'm outside AppleCare coverage they won't fix it.

1. I refer to the law which states a 2 year warranty on all parts of the product.
2. They ignore this, and say that they don't cover replacement of batteries - as this is seen as a naturally decaying part of the product.
3. I highlight the fact, that I'm not complaining that my battery doesn't last the full 4-5 hours. But that it doesn't work at all after 14 months. And it was a sudden incident - going from a status of about 80% to not working in an instant.
4. Same bla bla response
5. I mention to Apple that I actually have an extended AppleCare (I bought because I was taking the MBP to the US on exchange, and wanted the Worldwide coverage).
6. I immediately get an Apple repair number and get the battery exchanged within a few days - no charge

TLDR: It's not only about how they advertise AppleCare. They actively refuse to actually honor up to the local laws - and only honor AppleCare.

Without AppleCare (I know, you had it but just for the argument you wouldn't): Sorry to tell you that batteries are not covered by the law. They are products that break under normal wear and tare. Like in a new car, you have breaks and oil wear and you don't have a warranty on those either. So, it would be your responsibility indeed to replace the battery. Now, if it is the logic board which caused the defect on the battery, that is different, but if the battery is fried because you have it plugged in 99% of the time (or any other unusual use resulting in the battery to break) or just by normal use, sorry buddy, that's still on you.

 

[rsocal]

Money

Any Big Company that has money is a target for this nonsense! It appears Italy has taken a lesson from America, any big company with lots of money's they will face crap such as this! Attorney's have made a business out of placing blame for whatever stupidly a person engages in, it's not there falt, it's whoever has money that blame will be placed on for lawsuit purpose's! In America it pays good money to be a stupid jackass mother ****er, you just need a smart jack ass attorney mother ****er to make sure we are not held accountable for our stupidity, it must be everybody else and the one with the money pays off the idiots. Apple has always or at least since I've been a customer for 10+yrs and their C.S and warranty's are better then any business out there! Italy is looking for something, Money's, Naaaaaaaa not us.......

 

[frabber]

Yes, we got two year warranty in the EU and we love it. Lot's of macbooks got replaced because of this year extra warranty. No need for applecare, or "please explain to me how notes works" crap paid service.
You guys in US got screwed one year of warranty, is how I see it...

 

[applesith]

I think the law should be applied in the same way.

It isn't about support though, it is about the warranty protection. I don't have a problem with Apple charging for extended support. I bought Applecare for this very reason as a switcher from Windows.

I don't think companies like Apple OR Dell should be charging people for warranty protection for a product from 12-24 months. Any computer should be built to last more than 12 months. If there is a hardware failure after 16 months for example then that indicates a substandard piece of hardware and as such the manufacturers responsibility to deal with it.

They still have to build that warranty into the price regardless if its replacing/repairing or making better longer lasting products. it costs more either way.

----------

What do you mean it's not free? I'm expecting a product to be of high quality and last at least two years. I'm already paying for quality. If a device lasts me shorter than 2 years, it's not of high quality. Period.

Regardless of what you expect, warranties always cost more with anything you buy. Even if it's included, that extra cost is part of the price.

 

[kevinof]

Who law? The U.S? hate to tell you but U.S. law doesn't apply in Europe.

I had to replace my daughters battery in her iphone after about 19 months of use. It, and a broken mic were covered under the 2 year warranty.

Without AppleCare (I know, you had it but just for the argument you wouldn't): Sorry to tell you that batteries are not covered by the law. They are products that break under normal wear and tare. Like in a new car... .

 

[albusseverus]

Oh, and defending Apple in this regard is taking 'fanboy' to hitherto unreached levels, given it actively harms the consumer.

Currently AppleCare clearly shows 1 year warranty, in Gitmo Nation Spaghetti.

http://www.apple.com/it/support/products/mac.html

Here's a screenshot, in case it's fixed in future.

 

[Konrad]

Shortly after moving one of freshly purchased (in CA) 30 inch cinema displays from my house in LA to my house in Europe the thing was replaced about 4-5 times already well into the 3rd year since invoice, all under warranty, diligently shipped back and forward from the Apple warehouse in Ireland via FedEx until some guy in India gave a go ahead or a new unit. It would indicate for US purchased apple goods back then (2006) to automatically fall under the EU warranty policy. I also experienced a similar situation with HP, where despite the origin of the device, it was not only repaired, but also factory converted to 230VAC and delivered to my house by a courier all at no charge. Generally all is more expensive in Europe retail, except for bread, here without going into pages of comparisons... It is of course a certain compromise where in no doubt the winner today is Europe.

 

[michiemme]

I was referring to the German ONLINE store. All European Online stores are situated in Ireland...

Need I say more?

Nope.
One thing is where physically the store is, another thing is where legally works.
The Italian on line AppleStore has an Italian business registration number, necessary to easier sell inside the Country.
Otherwise, due the different VAT imposition between the EU partners, there's a very long procedure (buy without VAT, exporting process, local customs declaration, etc..) in charge of the buyer. And it becomes even worse if you are a professional customer....

I think that in any EU country is like this.

As a long term (Italian) Macuser, I can remark the weird behaviour of Apple, whatever they claim in their web site.
I had some issue with first Gen iBook, iPod, powerbook, iPhones and iPad bought through a reseller or directly (both online and shops). Sometimes I got issues in the second year and, after a weak resistance by the apple guys, they always accepted the warranty.

So the reason of this battle is simple. A part people like me and, I think, most of you who knows very well Apple and the tricks and its own rights, how Apple is managing the warranties in Italy is simply not legal.

that's it.

 

[Sackvillenb]

Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

Regardless of the debate about how it might raise prices, I think that intrinsically, most products should have MORE than a 1 year warranty. It's a matter of principle. If I make you something, and I say that I guarantee it will work for 1 year, but after that you are on your own, what does that say about the quality of my product? It does not reflect well on my quality standards. If I make you something and I guarantee it for 2 years (or even more), that says something quite different about the quality of my product. I think this is especially true of expensive devices like Macs. And, importantly, there are some companies (though not many) that DO offer 2 year warranties on electronics. A great example was when I worked at a general electronics retailer, we had these CHEAP laptops, I think they were MSI's, decent specs for the price though, and they had a 2 year warranty on them. So, if this company can make cheap laptop with DOUBLE the warranty of Apple, HP, Dell, and Sony, that (to me) tells me something about the product. And let's face it, it's all a money racket. These company have short warranties to save money, and so they can charge you for extended warranties. And that's balls. Especially on a computer that costs at least $1000 to $2000... Although I will say this, the price of applecare for an iMac is not terrible... considering...

 

[Daveoc64]

Sorry to tell you that batteries are not covered by the law. They are products that break under normal wear and tare. Like in a new car, you have breaks and oil wear and you don't have a warranty on those either.

As has been stated several times in the thread, the law doesn't give you a two year warranty.

It gives you an expectation of how long a product should last, with the opportunity to get a remedy for any problems from the retailer.

An ink cartridge doesn't have infinite capacity and might not last as long as the printer it came with, but if the ink cartridge becomes empty after printing a single page then it's clearly not good enough and you'd be entitled to get a replacement.

On the other hand, if you print several hundred pages with the cartridge in a month, then that would be reasonable.

The amount of time that you can expect the product to work for varies with both the type of product and how it's used.

 

[vladi]

Impressive thread!

How about this: No warranty at all! You buy your product and wait and see if it's going to work at all. It would be like lottery!! Awesome stuff, entertainment for everyone! Sometimes you will have to buy it multiple times and sometimes you will have to buy it just ONCE! Only once if you are lucky enough. Are you lucky?

This is how world would look if corporations would have their way instead of government. Sad thing is we have so many supporters of big corporatism and that is really scary. I am against government intrusion into peoples lives but I also believe in moral standards, so far I have yet to see a big corporation that has one and that is self initiated.

Apple sells their iPhones to carriers for approx around $500-600 and to end-consumer for around $700. In that price full device replacement is already calculated in. Now it all comes down to statistics and failure rate.

 

[kmv2012]

Without AppleCare (I know, you had it but just for the argument you wouldn't): Sorry to tell you that batteries are not covered by the law. They are products that break under normal wear and tare. Like in a new car, you have breaks and oil wear and you don't have a warranty on those either. So, it would be your responsibility indeed to replace the battery. Now, if it is the logic board which caused the defect on the battery, that is different, but if the battery is fried because you have it plugged in 99% of the time (or any other unusual use resulting in the battery to break) or just by normal use, sorry buddy, that's still on you.

Sorry buddy, but YOU are wrong. Under Danish consumer law companies have to replace a laptop battery if it fails within 2 years. This is loosely translated from Danish consumer law site:

"A portable computer is not portable if the battery doesn't work and it is to be expected to last at least to years without failing. If the battery is expected to last significantly shorter than 2 years it should be stated".

My Macbook Airs battery is supposed to run 1000 cycles before failing. My Mac is about 16 months old, app. 250 charge cycles, so if the battery fails it has to be covered. Period.

 

[iStudentUK]

I was referring to the German ONLINE store. All European Online stores are situated in Ireland...

Need I say more?

The German online Apple store will still sell at the same price as a German physical Apple store. My point still stands- employing people and selling to consumers is more expensive in th EU than the US due to better worker/consumer rights. So we pay more, I think it's worth it, but whatever people think about these rights Apple's prices aren't pure greed (part greed yes!).D

 

[j4zb4]

Silly German. It's called "You nailed it!"

Don't mix that up with "You nailed her!" which is the same as "You scewed her!" which is not the same as "You scewed it!" which is the opposite of "You nailed it!"

At least it wasnt a "grab into the toilet."

hahahah...

Btw that was what I meant... It has many iterations in different parts of the world...

Or maybe too much of internet forums and posters like "calidude" are "screwing up" my expressions big time...

 

[SilenceBe]

Apple often fixes their products out of warranty.

In a lot of European countries there aren't any Apple stores or they are limited to just one. When you have problems you need to go the closest Apple Premium Reseller to fix your problems. They don't have any room to give you "free" fixes.

I had a friend a couple of years ago whose Macbook pro broke after one year, and he got an invoice of 900 euro's ( > 1000 dollars) to fix his broken motherboard. In the end it was cheaper for him to contact a lawyer that sent Apple (in Ireland) a letter to explain some basic consumer laws, that they surely already know by heart. I've seen this same story happening on numerous European or local macboards. It always involves some strong-arm tactics to make Apple comply with the law.

The funny thing is that there is a big markup in prices and to be honest I see the sales tax argument but in the end the difference can't be explained by the sales tax. Europeans are mostly getting shafted as a lot of companies see Europeans as rich by some kind of weird reasoning. But that isn't only Apple's doing. You need to see the price differences for a photoshop licenses (even digital) between the US and Europa, it is a lot more then even the highest sales tax in Europe.

To be honest Apple is wonderful in the first year, but damn if something breaks in the years that follow and you don't have apple"care".

 

[Denzo]

Sorry buddy, but YOU are wrong. Under Danish consumer law companies have to replace a laptop battery if it fails within 2 years. This is loosely translated from Danish consumer law site:

"A portable computer is not portable if the battery doesn't work and it is to be expected to last at least to years without failing. If the battery is expected to last significantly shorter than 2 years it should be stated".

My Macbook Airs battery is supposed to run 1000 cycles before failing. My Mac is about 16 months old, app. 250 charge cycles, so if the battery fails it has to be covered. Period.

I agree with this. Why? Because a car battery, if run down too much can damage - and is therefore prone to failure caused by the treatment of the user.

A laptop battery needs to be able to drain and charge and drain and charge, repeatedly - big difference.

 

[alfistas]

The German online Apple store will still sell at the same price as a German physical Apple store. My point still stands- employing people and selling to consumers is more expensive in th EU than the US due to better worker/consumer rights. So we pay more, I think it's worth it, but whatever people think about these rights Apple's prices aren't pure greed (part greed yes!).D

Perhaps you'd care to explain how you came to this conclusion?

CHINESE APPLE STORE
Retina MacBook Pro: $2,972.97 ex.vat 10% (high end model) -- at today's exchange rate from (www.xe.com)
The price difference is $173.97!!!!!!

And we all know that Apple products are designed in California and MANUFACTURED IN CHINA

 

[Mad-B-One]

Sorry buddy, but YOU are wrong. Under Danish consumer law companies have to replace a laptop battery if it fails within 2 years. This is loosely translated from Danish consumer law site:

"A portable computer is not portable if the battery doesn't work and it is to be expected to last at least to years without failing. If the battery is expected to last significantly shorter than 2 years it should be stated".

My Macbook Airs battery is supposed to run 1000 cycles before failing. My Mac is about 16 months old, app. 250 charge cycles, so if the battery fails it has to be covered. Period.

Law or ruling? Can you cite? Would be interresting.

----------

As has been stated several times in the thread, the law doesn't give you a two year warranty.

It gives you an expectation of how long a product should last, with the opportunity to get a remedy for any problems from the retailer.

An ink cartridge doesn't have infinite capacity and might not last as long as the printer it came with, but if the ink cartridge becomes empty after printing a single page then it's clearly not good enough and you'd be entitled to get a replacement.

On the other hand, if you print several hundred pages with the cartridge in a month, then that would be reasonable.

The amount of time that you can expect the product to work for varies with both the type of product and how it's used.

For the lack of better words in the English language: They give you a 2-year limited warranty. In German, they have 2 different words for it: "Garantie" - which is including more and "Gewaerleistung" which is the limited warranty. Either way, a warranty is nothing else than the promise that a product will work without failing for a certain amount of time and regulating how reimbursment is handled in case of defect. I specified if before, so you might have read my post on that as well... anyways, you are wrong if you state it's not a warranty. It is - just not the same as a full replacement warranty or extended warranty. It is pretty basic - hence limited.

----------

Perhaps you'd care to explain how you came to this conclusion?

CHINESE APPLE STORE
Retina MacBook Pro: $3,303.30 (high end model) -- at today's exchange rate from (www.xe.com)

The price difference is $504.30!!!!!!

And we all know that Apple products are designed in California and MANUFACTURED IN CHINA

And what is the VAT and other tax? Most countries have to include that in the price. USA is always showing prices without tax. Did you think about that?

 

[alfistas]

And what is the VAT and other tax? Most countries have to include that in the price. USA is always showing prices without tax. Did you think about that?

Yes have a look at my other posts

 

[Mad-B-One]

Yes have a look at my other posts

I did and I could not find it. Germany should have a 19% higher price, Sweden 25%, etc due to VAT. If it is even more, THEN you have an argument. You didn't specify China's pricing (either incl. VAT or not, how high the VAT is and if there is something like lux-tax as well like in Belgium). So, could you elaborate? Just mentioned European countries because that was the argument. China does not have the European guideline with 2 years limited warranty mandated. So, China does not really play into your argument.