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It’s already here. It will be implemented in 2023 as borth parlament and the commission have shown overwhelming support and practicaly guaranteed to pass

And this proposal hails advertising and ads: "provide companies advertising on their platform with the tools and information necessary for advertisers and publishers to carry out their own independent verification of their advertisements hosted by the gatekeeper"

Instead it should have gone the opposite direction and labeled unsolicited advertising as a human right violation.
 
You license the OS, the device is yours.
Can you please provide any legal paperwork I signed to license anything? Because anything signed after ownership is not legally binding. You understand this fundamental thing?
You can't do what you want with the operating system Apple supplies. The second you purchase an App on the store, it's running on the OS. Just like EPIC proved that an update to their app could completely change how the app worked outside the rules they agreed to follow. Anything you purchase via the app store IS subject to the 30% or whatever cut Apple is supposed to get. You "could" still go to EPIC's website and buy your digital currency outside the App "Stores".
Please tell me what I can’t legally do with the OS apple supplied to me? I will gladly dot shy thing and and sit to apple and wait for their illegal lawsuit that will never happen.
Within the STORE, no. You can't go to Target and pickup a fire tablet and pay Amazon for it at the register. There is no ads in Target that say "Buy direct from Amazon, Save Money!"
Indeed, untill I purchase that tablet I can buy things on it, and it would be none of targets business.
Again you own the device. You license the OS. They are not forcing any concurrent sales. You can purchase that digital currency from the developer directly OR another store. There is zero wrong here. And nothing that wasn't already agreed to.
Again I have never signed any legal agreement to license iOS. It’s already been ruled by EU that software EULA can be ignored as null and void.
You may not like it, but that has $#!T to do with it. I want a rocket I can go to space with. It's not fair Elon and Jeff charge so damn much to go. US government, make them charge less or allow a 3rd party to charge me less so I can go!
I don’t live in USA, and EU seem to be forcing this whether apple like to or not
I can't buy Spotify from Apple or Netflix.
Well I never wanted to buy them from apple. I wanted to pay for them in their app, that exist on MY PHONE.
I'm also fairly certain that the App stores in general are all cheaper (% of the sale price going to the store) than any physical store? So, that could be considered an upgrade?
It being cheaper isn’t relevant in Europe. The fact apple stops different payments system after the purchase is done is the problem.
They do follow me to the door. Both usually have greeters there, and they check my receipt (sometimes they forget).
I mean your house…
I argue for the right of Apple and or Google to charge 30% or whatever they seem fit to charge on top of the developers cost, as a cost of doing business. You are in the store, you pay the developer and the store. This happens in the real world too. At a greater cost to the developer at that. It's cheaper for them to do it online, sure. But, there is a cost to that. And again, nothing stopping you from going direct to EPIC (sorry to keep picking on EPIC but F them for this mess) and get the In-App-Purchases the same as via the digital stores. Bypassing Apple and Google entirely.
If apple want’s more money they can ether increase the cost for selling on the store, increase the split or do like Epic and have a license agreement requesting a 12% cut of any revenue done with apple Xcode. Apple would just not be allowed to stop other programs to be used.
How is it no one is seeing that Microsoft (of all companies) have setup a Web App that totally bypasses the App stores and streams Xbox games to your device as a clear cut way Apple has already allowed you to go round?
Streaming something isn’t circumventing anything. Does Netflix circumvent apple apps tire by allowing people to use a glorified web browser in an app?
EPIC could have done this, chose not to. They choose to go to court. Wasting money, and time for what? A F'n link?
A link inside the app is a good thing for everyone else. I’m glad Epic sacrificed themself for the greater good.
Your not allowed to show that information (lower price) within the AppStore
That’s okey m, I have no problem with this
or App from the app store.
That’s a big BiG problem. This is anti competitive against competing payment systems.
There is nothing stopping you from charging whatever you want on your own website or to other platforms. THAT would be some wicked collusion between the same parties that would like to see Apple fail. You couldn't control Google play, Microsoft Xbox, Sony Playstation, and Nintendo all by being in the Apple Appstore. Not to mention your own site/store and any gift cards from physical or online retailers like Amazon, Target, BestBuy, *including other countries physical or online stores here*, etc.
What are you even trying to say 😂 iOS apps aren’t available anywhere else but the apple store. Only books, streaming services and in app purchase can be bought somewhere else. Come back when an Xbox game or target have an app I can just install on my phone and we can talk.
Installing and app from my computer is more inconvenient which I don't want. It's the main reason I'm defending the status quo. I would rather pay more to have convenience and conformity.
That’s completely okey. Me having this availability won’t affect you in any way.
Allow developers to have an expensive option( apple store IAP version etc) and a side loading price. If the apple apps tire is so great it won’t be as bad, right?
 
It didn’t, it was a Pr ******** and apple stopped using the loophole before the trial ended. If it was perfect they would still use it.

You have an incorrect timeline.

2015: Apple switches from the Double Irish with a Dutch twist to the new Green Jersey technique
2016: EU Commission found Ireland to have been given illegal state aid to Apple
2016: Ireland and Apple appeals the decision
2019: The trial starts (?)
2020: Ireland and Apple are acquitted
2021: EU appeals

Apple is extremely good at delaying their taxes and moving most of their tax burden to the US.
 
Isn’t there a better way for Apple to charge for this than IAP?

If you can come up with something better which would

* Give Apple the same amount of money
* Be easily enforceable
* Don't lower the sales of iPhones
* Don't lower customer satisfaction
* Don't lower the availability of important apps on the platform
* Survive all legal challenges all over the world

Apple would probably appreciate such a proposal.
 
Do you understand what a mature market is and how that relates to the iPhone in the early days versus a decade and a half later? If you do, then you understand that absent some colossal screw up like pulling the App Store, would-be challengers trying to compete with Apple and Google are all but certain to fail. The near impossibility is why nobody is trying. Amazon, MS, Samsung, and Facebook would be in a better position than anybody out there to try, but they aren’t because they understand how this market works. It would be money and resources thrown straight into the garbage.
EPIC through money strait into the garbage with this lawsuit. Well it went to lawyers and they had to pay back Apple but, seriously it went strait into the garbage.

Again, none of this is Apples fault. They took the risk and so did Google when others had VASTY different plans for the future of their mobile device. They failed. It's allowed to happen. Apple/Google succeeded, and didn't do so behaving as a monopolist (at least Apple in this case).

It makes no sense that Apple or Google should have to change their business model because they are successful. If they broke no rules or laws or regulations, they are free to continue business as usual. As others are free to attempt to compete against them.
 
Which gives developers access to the tools and platform to develop apps, as evidenced by the fact developers who have paid the membership can develop and run apps on their iOS devices.

Yes, but Apple grants those things independent of that fee.

Apple can also increase that price or start requiring additional fees in certain circumstances. In the US at least, there is almost no limit to how they can charge a commission, especially now they have found to not have monopoly power.
 
Sorry but wrong, and using some tech article as evidence? She specifically said she was not ruling on them being a monopoly either way, only that epic failed to prove it. I'm not going to continue to go back and forth on this.

"Thus, and in summary, the Court does not find that Apple is an antitrust monopolist in the submarket for mobile gaming transactions." -Epic vs. Apple judgement

To me this means Apple were found not to be a monopolist in the relevant market.

How could such a statement be interpreted to go either way?

Is it the phrase "does not find"?
 
I don't care what Apple did or didn't do, without those developers Apple would be nothing 🙄🙄🙄
who invented what the dev’s use to make their money?
it’s such a silly argument.
its not like the devs decided to bless Apple with their presence. They were enticed to. Apple created the first easy to use dev package that got their software in devices all over the world with very little hassle. Plus apple had already sold tons of iPods so devs knew their would be a big market for their apps.

people really love to rewrite history. If the app market we know today was innevitable and Apple wasnt the catalyst for it, why didn’t Nokia and blackberry do the same thing? maybe it’s got something to do with how bad their sdk’s were or their app distribution setup? Or maybe it was their comparatively rubbish hardware.
Or why did google pivot with android when it saw apples iPhone and turned it into a device that worked less like a blackberry and more like the iPhone they saw?

the thing is, I was there. I remember exactly why and how things happenEd. and Im also a programmer and know exactly what the motivation was to develop for iPhone.
apple did wonders for the industry. Without Apple and iPhone, a great deal of developers would be nothing, and they know it.
 
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Can you please provide any legal paperwork I signed to license anything? Because anything signed after ownership is not legally binding. You understand this fundamental thing?
Please tell me what I can’t legally do with the OS apple supplied to me? I will gladly dot shy thing and and sit to apple and wait for their illegal lawsuit that will never happen.
You can’t reverse engineer iOS and sell it on non-iOS hardware.
Indeed, untill I purchase that tablet I can buy things on it, and it would be none of targets business.

Again I have never signed any legal agreement to license iOS. It’s already been ruled by EU that software EULA can be ignored as null and void.

I don’t live in USA, and EU seem to be forcing this whether apple like to or not

Well I never wanted to buy them from apple. I wanted to pay for them in their app, that exist on MY PHONE.

It being cheaper isn’t relevant in Europe. The fact apple stops different payments system after the purchase is done is the problem.

I mean your house…

If apple want’s more money they can ether increase the cost for selling on the store, increase the split or do like Epic and have a license agreement requesting a 12% cut of any revenue done with apple Xcode. Apple would just not be allowed to stop other programs to be used.

Streaming something isn’t circumventing anything. Does Netflix circumvent apple apps tire by allowing people to use a glorified web browser in an app?

A link inside the app is a good thing for everyone else. I’m glad Epic sacrificed themself for the greater good.

That’s okey m, I have no problem with this

That’s a big BiG problem. This is anti competitive against competing payment systems.

What are you even trying to say 😂 iOS apps aren’t available anywhere else but the apple store. Only books, streaming services and in app purchase can be bought somewhere else. Come back when an Xbox game or target have an app I can just install on my phone and we can talk.

That’s completely okey. Me having this availability won’t affect you in any way.
Allow developers to have an expensive option( apple store IAP version etc) and a side loading price. If the apple apps tire is so great it won’t be as bad, right?
 
Thanks, you're right. I think that proves my point even more - Apple collects a fee for developers to be able to distribute their app, so they're double-dipping by requiring developers to distribute their non-free apps in their App Store and collecting a fee there as well rather than letting them distribute apps without Apple's distribution infrastructure.

There is no problem getting paid multiple times for the same thing. A lot of people think that's illegal or immoral. No, it just a common business practise.

Very strange that

f(x) = ax and f(x) = c is both kosher but

f(x) = ax + c is not.
 
Yes, other developers ARE COMPLAINING, stop the lying 🙄
You are free to believe the earth is flat despite all the evidence present. Your are also free to believe other factual information is a 'lie'. However, just because you believe in such ridiculous notions, it doesn't make it so.
 
Facebook pays lower rates per room (at least in your scenario) because they’re spending more money at that hotel in total than Joe Blow renting one room. It’s a bulk discount and is extremely common for all kinds of things. That’s irrelevant to the the App Store model though. Are you Facebook or Netflix worth hundreds of billions with whole teams of devs using Apple’s tools? Ok you pay next to nothing to Apple for the tools and resources here that everybody claims are so valuable simply because of the way your app works. Are you some guy worth nothing who’s trying to start something from the ground up? Ok, you pay Apple 15% for the privilege.

Yes, but I am using it as an example were big companies pay less than small companies. They just do it for a different reason. And the hotel is probably not using Facebook's revenue to calculate their price.

It's the same with the App Store. The revenue of the company is basically irrelevant. If the revenue is irrelevant there can't be a surprise that there exists conditions which makes the smaller company pay more to Apple than the bigger one.

Apple probably learned from the US tax code where rich churches and religious organisations are exempt and the common man must pay their due.

Also, Apple's policies allows for much more diversity in how you are treated:

#1 Poor companies pays a lot
#2 Poor companies pays nothing
#3 Rich companies pays a lot
#4 Rich companies pays nothing
and everything between.

Very few business models are so diverse. It's pretty amazing.
 
In 2006 neither iOS or Android existing in the market place. The smartphone market was huge. And yet both Apple and Google succeeded.

Social media. Look at Tik Tok, even with dominant players like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Twitter, Youtube and others, Tik Tok succeed just in the last few years. Or SnapChat for that matter.

And in the desktop market, you are forgetting Chromebooks.
The smartphone market was huge in 2006? Is that a joke? About 3% of the population had a smartphone in 2006. These days it’s over 80%. And Apple and Google succeeded by offering something that was friendly and useful to everyday consumers. Nobody had done that before, everything was business oriented before that. Everybody was on a level playing field back then as nobody had an App Store with millions of apps already on it. Anyone trying to come into the market these days are at an insurmountable disadvantage because without apps there are few potential consumers and with few potential consumers you’ll never get market penetration to the point where devs see value in developing for your platform.
 
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EPIC through money strait into the garbage with this lawsuit. Well it went to lawyers and they had to pay back Apple but, seriously it went strait into the garbage.

Again, none of this is Apples fault. They took the risk and so did Google when others had VASTY different plans for the future of their mobile device. They failed. It's allowed to happen. Apple/Google succeeded, and didn't do so behaving as a monopolist (at least Apple in this case).

It makes no sense that Apple or Google should have to change their business model because they are successful. If they broke no rules or laws or regulations, they are free to continue business as usual. As others are free to attempt to compete against them.
Actually, apparently they’re not free to continue with business as usual. We’re seeing that reality play out in courts and legislatures all over the world.
 
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Actually, apparently they’re not free to continue with business as usual. We’re seeing that reality play out in courts and legislatures all over the world.
Right now it is business as usual. It may not be shortly. There could be countries without app stores, who knows? But then again that won’t be BAU.
 
False equivalence as these things your saying have nothing to do with this movement. Nobody is arguing that apple can’t take a cut from a purchase ON the App Store. Nobody is arguing that apple can’t take a fee for be out ON the store
That seems to be exactly what people are arguing. They EPIC (in this case) want to bypass the store entirely. They want Apples customers and they don't want to pay Apple anything for it (anymore).

Governments (EU ,Asia, US, etc.) want alternate in-app purchasing systems. And they some how want that to exist within the same store Apple and Google have setup. Which is no different to having another register within a physical store that pays the developer directly. But, Apple/Google is still allowed to collect a fee or commission on that sale. And since none of these governments can control the price Apple/Google will charge. It's almost a moot point to even bother. Your best bet will be to leave the app and go to the developers online store (WHICH YOU CAN DO TODAY), and get whatever in-app-purchase you want. While today the limitation is you can not advertise that fact within the store, or the app itself. Which to be honest is no different than how it works at a physical store. So if these rules get implemented they will have the same affect to physical stores as well. I expect that my nearest BestBuy will have an Amazon register along side the Best Buy one. And a Target, and a Macy's and whomever else. All yelling at each other and you trying to get you to pay for something thru them. Like an auction but going down in price.
what everyone is arguing is apple should not be allowed to force every in app purchase to pay a cut to apple.
Your not forced. You can go to EPIC's site and get your digital coins or IN-App-Stuff outside of Apple entirely. It works across consoles as well.
 
Actually, apparently they’re not free to continue with business as usual. We’re seeing that reality play out in courts and legislatures all over the world.
Let us know when it's the law of the land. I don't see any changes as of yet on my iPhone's appstore.
 
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Can you please provide any legal paperwork I signed to license anything? Because anything signed after ownership is not legally binding. You understand this fundamental thing?
You didn't "sign" for anything, you agreed to the terms and conditions (EULA)
Please tell me what I can’t legally do with the OS apple supplied to me? I will gladly dot shy thing and and sit to apple and wait for their illegal lawsuit that will never happen.
You can do what you wish with it. But if you try and resell a modified version of it, they can sue you.
Indeed, untill I purchase that tablet I can buy things on it, and it would be none of targets business.
Target doesn't make the tablet. IF they did, and they forked an Android OS on it (A la Amazon), and they had an Appstore on it. They would/could setup the same set of rules as everyone else.
Again I have never signed any legal agreement to license iOS. It’s already been ruled by EU that software EULA can be ignored as null and void.
The EU. "
Consequences

This decision does not mean only that software developers cannot prevent second hand sales of their software by their European licensees. It means software licence agreements and all their terms and conditions (not just the one prohibiting transfer) can be ignored by European courts if the licence period is indefinite, and probably even if it is tied to the lengthy period of copyright in Europe - 70 years after death of last surviving programmer. Such a license will be regarded as a simple sale and sales of personal property cannot be tagged with conditions on how the property can be used."

This doesn't seem in any way to impact what we are discussing here. Since you can only install iOS on an iPhone. And you can only get iOS apps from Apple AppStore. Even if you "ignored" the EULA (which clearly you have already done). You couldn't do anything other than try to hack it on another device (pointless), or put a hacked version on another iPhone. Of which, if you published that. Apple would most likely still sue (even if this above consequence still somehow took precedent) Since you don't actually pay for the OS, and they don't "sell" it separately.

I don’t live in USA, and EU seem to be forcing this whether apple like to or not
Go ahead and force it EU. Force it good and hard.
Well I never wanted to buy them from apple. I wanted to pay for them in their app, that exist on MY PHONE.

It being cheaper isn’t relevant in Europe. The fact apple stops different payments system after the purchase is done is the problem.

I mean your house…

If apple want’s more money they can ether increase the cost for selling on the store, increase the split or do like Epic and have a license agreement requesting a 12% cut of any revenue done with apple Xcode. Apple would just not be allowed to stop other programs to be used.
So Apple should wait for what, each quarter to collect? Year? When should the Apple tax man come by and collect? Should Xcode cost $10k? What about $100k? US or Euro?
Streaming something isn’t circumventing anything. Does Netflix circumvent apple apps tire by allowing people to use a glorified web browser in an app?

A link inside the app is a good thing for everyone else. I’m glad Epic sacrificed themself for the greater good.
I'm glad they did too. To show everyone else how not to be a dumb F***.
What are you even trying to say 😂 iOS apps aren’t available anywhere else but the apple store. Only books, streaming services and in app purchase can be bought somewhere else. Come back when an Xbox game or target have an app I can just install on my phone and we can talk.
I can't use my purchase of an Xbox game on my Playstation if they both have the same game. I can't use my purchase from Android for an App to apply on iOS. BUT, I can get my in-app-purchases to link up. Even if I bought it someplace else.
 
Wait, Apple said publicly it was pleased with the ruling, now it wants to appeal it??
Apple won 9 out of 10 elements of the lawsuit. That's a great result! They are appealing the one count that they didn't win, and are perfectly within their rights to do so.
 
I don't think Apple will successfully appeal that part of the Epic vs Apple trial judgement. The fact that you can sign up for some VoD providers like Netflix on their web site and download the related app from the store shows they are already doing it.
Apples and oranges comparison. Netflix has an array of VoD movies and TV shows, but these are not supplied by Apple. If a game offers add-ons to supplement their gameplay, they are supplied by Apple.
 
Thanks, you're right. I think that proves my point even more - Apple collects a fee for developers to be able to distribute their app, so they're double-dipping by requiring developers to distribute their non-free apps in their App Store and collecting a fee there as well rather than letting them distribute apps without Apple's distribution infrastructure.
I think it is exactly the opposite. The membership fees allows anyone to place their app in the store. It supports the core functionality of signing and allowing apps to be downloaded anywhere in the world.

the membership does not pay for all the services provided by Apple. They set the store up it a core philosophy of lowering the barrier of entry for smaller developers. Or even larger one for that matter. Apple is entitled to charge a fee that they feel is fair for their services, I am not going to debate the 15-30%. But just state that it more than transaction processing. Part of the way that they set the store up is that all apps can be provided free. Nothing else will be charged but the developer fee. If the developer opts to monetize their app via ads or external purchases which may be used within the apps then Apple still charges no fee. They opted to charge a fee based on the direct modnetization (sales) of apps or IAP.

Personally, I would not want to see a model that significantly changes this. I have the option of releasing my app for free on the store and monetizing myself or using paid app mechanisms. The latter provides low effort to implement and requires I do no direct marketing or other effort sell.

the only other viable alternatives are to 1) increase all fee for all apps and developers, or 2) demand sales reports from developers and invoice after the fact. There is nothing wrong with Apple charging fees for all that they provide to developers (hint - it is a lot more than CC transaction processing). Many other IP providers to the latter, including EPIC with thei engine license fees. ISP makes the revenue identification and fees calculation easy, but it is surely not the only method. And not using IAP but some other mechanism does not automatically relieve developers of owing fees.

this is not an easy answer and I am afraid Apple will revise the rules such that the fees calculation is harder and will be applied to more developers than does today.

for everyone saying the apple and iPhone would be nowhere without the developers that may be true. But there are a ton of developers that would never had had the chance to even deploy an app if Apple has used the more traditional model (look at Xbox and the like). And many of those developer that would ever have been around are common names and major players today.
 
Not everyone want a giant mega corp to have total control of his/her life and determine what decision he/she should make.

In fact, people have been calling out breaking up these mega corps because they are way too powerful.
If this "Not everyone want a giant mega corp to have total control of his/her life and determine what decision he/she should make" actually describes your life, you probably should swear off digital devices.
 
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I call BS on this. Again, the iPhone existed BEFORE DEVELOPERS made 1 single app.
It was $499+. They sold without any developer having written a single app for an AppStore that didn't even exist for another year. I very much doubt that iOS would be nothing.
And it sold out with lines around blocks all over the world. And with only one carrier in each country. And it sold with a contract and without any price concession. Something that was unheard of at the time when phones were free (or close enough to it) with contracts. At least in the US and some other countries - I can’t speak to all of them.
 
Your best bet will be to leave the app and go to the developers online store (WHICH YOU CAN DO TODAY), and get whatever in-app-purchase you want. While today the limitation is you can not advertise that fact within the store, or the app itself. Which to be honest is no different than how it works at a physical store.
I wanted to respond to this point in particular. If I buy a game at Target the developer is absolutely allowed to include all kinds of advertisements in the game box for micro-transactions that you can buy from them. Target would not get a cut of those purchases even though you bought the game there. Developers could even advertise in the game itself that you can purchase various micro-transactions and Target does not get a cut of those either, even though the game itself was purchased there. The developers app is not Apple’s store any more than the game I bought at Target is Target’s store.
 
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