Apple Files Appeal in Epic Games Lawsuit, Asks to Delay App Store Changes

[AppliedMicro]

A more apt analogy is a toll road.

...whose tolls are regulated in many parts of the world.

Does anybody look at your salary and declare you are earning too much?

No - but then, my salary is competitively determined in a market with many workers and (relevant) employers.

There is not a lack of competition, there are multiple venues to enter into a market for a fairly low fee and distribute your goods. It so happens the ios app store is a desirable market.

There's very few relevant smartphone app marketplaces.

Increasingly essential to me is an overreach meant to justify an opinion as a fact

It's open to interpretation and opinion, yes (and they are the basic to public policy).

What are you talking about? there is xaomi, samsung, LG, Sony, Amazon, Plus One, Google etc.. etc../
All make Android phones that can do pretty much everything the iphone can do. I think you are confused.

I'm not talking about hardware makers. I'm talking about relevant "App Store"-type marketplaces. By merely adding up the market share of the two largest operators (Google & Apple for the US). we can see that there's considerable concentration in that space.

Alternative app stores means they dont approve anything that runs on the platform

I wasn't talking about alternative app store in particular.

But I fail to see your argument here?! Customers would be free to choose whether they sign up for alternative app store or not, wouldn't they? If you prefer Apple's walled garden you just stay with Apple's App Store only - simple as that.

Apple could not enforce privacy directives etc

They can, by sandboxing apps.

 

[I7guy]

It’s an incredibly stupid argument anyway. Since when have governments been relegated to regulating markets of only the things required for survival?? That would pretty much be limited to food, water, and air. They’ve always regulated markets at large to ensure fair competition.

There are laws on the books for a wide swath of society and business practices. That doesn't mean there isn't a free market aspect aspect to business. A grocery store can't gouge customers when there are shortages, but in normal times if the store raises the price of an item, shoppers will go elsewhere. That's the free market at work. And the same applies to the app store. The app store has to be run fairly but because the market has determined it is the most lucrative app store, doesn't mean a call to regulation is in order.

 

[vipergts2207]

No it’s not, a developer has many choices…

1) Do business on iOS
2) Do business on a multitude of other mobile platforms.
3) Do business on desktop
4) Do business on consoles
5) Get another job

1. True.
2. What are the other “multitude” of mobile platforms? There’s only one other one.
3. That’s a different market. This relates to mobile phone platforms. Read what the judge said.
4. See number 3.
5. See number 3.

The fact that people could find work in other markets or fields is irrelevant. That’s not how anti-trust law works at all.

The world doesn’t owe people a living. Apple doesn’t owe people a living. If you make a business around iOS apps, then you know and understand what the costs are going in and whether it will be profitable for you going forward. You cannot go into a business and make the people you do business with change their model to suit you.

The government can if they decide what you’re doing is against the law.

This is the same for any business owner in any market worldwide. If the terms are not agreeable to your business model, you move on….not whinge and whine that life isn’t fair.

No, actually that’s what courts and regulators are for, if someone thinks another businesses terms are anti-competitive.

 

[I7guy]

...whose tolls are regulated in many parts of the world.

Right, and my tolls have only gone one way, regulated or not.

No - but then, my salary is competitively determined in a market with many workers and (relevant) employers.

No, only if your job is high demand and constrained do you have a competitive advantage. But I don't see a call to regulating salaries. Competition in the app store is not constrained however there are certain fees that are immutable as Apple is providing a virtual platform for peanuts.

There's very few relevant smartphone app marketplaces.

There's a multitude of app stores though. If one wants to develop on ios, its due to choice.

It's open to interpretation and opinion, yes (and they are the basic to public policy).

They clearly increase productivity.

I'm not talking about hardware makers. I'm talking about relevant "App Store"-type marketplaces. By merely adding up the market share of the two largest operators (Google & Apple for the US). we can see that there's considerable concentration in that space.

The court has ruled for the most part companies aren't a monopoly for their own products. This is part of the recent ruling. The fact is there are multiple manufacturers, who can have their own app store. That manufacturers don't want to take that on, does not mean the existing ones should be hamstrung by overbearing governmental regulation.

I wasn't talking about alternative app store in particular.

But I fail to see your argument here?! Customers would be free to choose whether they sign up for alternative app store or not, wouldn't they? If you prefer Apple's walled garden you just stay with Apple's App Store only - simple as that.

They can, by sandboxing apps.

 

[vipergts2207]

There are laws on the books for a wide swath of society and business practices. That doesn't mean there isn't a free market aspect aspect to business. A grocery store can't gouge customers when there are shortages, but in normal times if the store raises the price of an item, shoppers will go elsewhere. That's the free market at work. And the same applies to the app store. The app store has to be run fairly but because the market has determined it is the most lucrative app store, doesn't mean a call to regulation is in order.

You keep saying this, but courts and governments around the world are proving you wrong. Ongoing court cases and legislation drafting going on all over the place, from the U.S. to South Korea to Japan to the Netherlands and the rest of the EU. So far in every single case at least some aspect of Apple’s business has been deemed as being a problem. Oh and India just opened an investigation as well. How does that saying about smoke and fire go again?

 

[I7guy]

1. True.
2. What are the other “multitude” of mobile platforms? There’s only one other one.
3. That’s a different market. This relates to mobile phone platforms. Read what the judge said.
4. See number 3.
5. See number 3.

The judge ruled the market, the largest one, is the gaming mobile market of which there are more than two opportunities. If you can define a market small enough you end up with a monopoly.

The fact that people could find work in other markets or fields is irrelevant. That’s not how anti-trust law works at all.

Anti-trust is not a snap of fingers. Being accused of anti-trust doesn't mean it's true.

The government can if they decide what you’re doing is against the law.

And they also can be overruled.

No, actually that’s what courts and regulators are for, if someone thinks another businesses terms are anti-competitive.

The government doesn't always regulate terms disputes. You can try a legal remedy as Epic did.

 

[I7guy]

You keep saying this, but courts and governments around the world are proving you wrong.

No Judge Rogers is proving me right. Or said another way, Apple in the US prevailed on all counts except for one.

Ongoing court cases and legislation drafting going on all over the place, from the U.S. to South Korea to Japan to the Netherlands and the rest of the EU.

All of this is posturing at this point in time.

 

[vipergts2207]

No Judge Rogers is proving me right. Or said another way, Apple in the US prevailed on all counts except for one.

And the one they lost on is a big one. Otherwise Apple wouldn’t be appealing. You’re also ignoring outside the US where Apple is losing as well and yet more investigations are opened. See India for instance.

All of this is posturing at this point in time.

Posturing in what sense exactly? Do you think courts are ruling against Apple and legislatures are drafting legislation just to maintain the status quo lol? There are changes a-coming, it’s just a matter of when, where, and how significantly.

 

[vipergts2207]

The judge ruled the market, the largest one, is the gaming mobile market of which there are more than two opportunities. If you can define a market small enough you end up with a monopoly.

Anti-trust is not a snap of fingers. Being accused of anti-trust doesn't mean it's true.

That doesn’t matter. Being able to find work in another field (which was one of the other poster’s justifications) has nothing to do with how anti-trust laws work. Do you disagree with that statement? I’m pretty sure Standard Oil never tried to use the argument that anti-trust laws didn’t apply to their case because other would-be oil producers could just mine copper instead.

And they also can be overruled.

Yes, by themselves. If a lower court’s decision is overturned, that’s just the government deciding that it wasn’t against the law. That doesn’t contradict my statement.

The government doesn't always regulate terms disputes. You can try a legal remedy as Epic did.

Uh yeah, that’s why I mentioned courts in the very part you quoted.

 

[I7guy]

And the one they lost on is a big one. Otherwise Apple wouldn’t be appealing. You’re also ignoring outside the US where Apple is losing as well and yet more investigations are opened. See India for instance.

Yes and no on the anti steering. Apple is still entitled to collect commission, it just becomes more difficult. And given there is an appeal and a motion we will have to see where this goes.

Posturing in what sense exactly? Do you think courts are ruling against Apple and legislatures are drafting legislation just to maintain the status quo lol? There are changes a-coming, it’s just a matter of when, where, and how significantly.

Because until it comes to pass that an actionable item comes from the docket, we won’t know.

 

[I7guy]

That doesn’t matter. Being able to find work in another field has nothing to do with how anti-trust laws work. Do you disagree with that statement?

No. But devs aren’t forced to develop on the iOS platform either. Saying there are two markets and they should be regulated is not correct.

I’m pretty sure Standard Oil never tried to use the argument that anti-trust laws didn’t apply because other would-be oil producers could just mine copper instead.

So you believe this is an apt analogy?

Yes, by themselves. If a lower court’s decision is overturned, that’s just the government deciding that it wasn’t against the law. That doesn’t contradict my statement.

SCOTUS can be involved in any law of the land is the point. We don’t know where this entire thing will land until the process is completed.

Uh yeah, that’s why I mentioned courts in the very part you quoted.

Uh right. There are the courts, regulatory bodies and congress.

 

[vipergts2207]

Yes and no on the anti steering. Apple is still entitled to collect commission, it just becomes more difficult. And given there is an appeal and a motion we will have to see where this goes.

Because until it comes to pass that an actionable item comes from the docket, we won’t know.

We don’t even need to wait. Apple already settled with Japan’s FTC on an older case. Of course Japan’s FTC also just opened another investigation into both Apple and Google.

 

[vipergts2207]

No. But devs aren’t forced to develop on the iOS platform either. Saying there are two markets and they should be regulated is not correct.

Says who, you? I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what’s being investigated in multiple instances. In fact, that’s exactly what Japan’s newest investigation is about.

So you believe this is an apt analogy?

Well let’s look at what the other poster said to whom I was originally responding:

No it’s not, a developer has many choices…

5) Get another job

Yes, I believe that’s an apt analogy to the above statement.

SCOTUS can be involved in any law of the land is the point. We don’t know where this entire thing will land until the process is completed.

And yet that still doesn’t contradict what I said, which to remind you, was that governments can in fact step in and force changes to an illegal business model.

Uh right. There are the courts, regulatory bodies and congress.

This was never in dispute, and yet again, contradicts nothing I said. Ya know, it seems that you have a habit of sometimes restating what I myself said and then try to act like what you said is at odds with what I myself already said. I really don’t get that and it’s rather annoying. Is the strategy here to out debate me with my own words and arguments? It’s weird. If you agree with something I say, then just say so. Or leave the point unaddressed, even.

 

[Skewlovevism]

How many blames Apple if they get scammed or get their info stolen on their MacBook? Today the mobile phone is a computer, and there are many reason for not just being able to switch platform. Plus the fact that the customers own the device, don’t they?

It used to be, if something is free then you are the product. But with Apple you pay to become the product. The reason Apple dont want to open up the platform is because they Will then loose this valuable product (the ability to charge for getting access to iOS users).

As far as I am aware, the iPhone is advertised as “privacy, security “ device, not Mac.

Also, I want iPhone to be simple, not it to be a Mac. It is for using apps and concentrate on apps only, not on file system and other distractions.

That you own the device, doesn’t have anything to do with choosing system. I have a Sony camera and TV, but I want Samsung software on it. I know, you will say that smartphone is different, but you buy smartphone for an OS and ecosystem on it, don’t you?

As of your “you pay to Apple = you are the product”. Nonsense. First of all, no one likes to lose their customers, that doesn’t mean they feel they own them. The customers, who pay, spend money, are most likely, taking the product more seriously. If I give you something for free, will you appreciate and care for it the same way? Honest question.
Second, if you advertise for privacy and then your devices will be plaqued by scam from external links, your device will no longer have a feel of privacy and security.


We chose iOS, because we don’t want to deal with this.
You prefer Android experience, it is fine, go to Android.

 

[quarkysg]

Apple is not forced to do business in any one country. Just like developers, Apple is free to leave if they don’t like the terms.

I agree with you. I think Apple does not operate in all counties in the world. But how is that relevant to my reply?

 

[vipergts2207]

I agree with you. I think Apple does not operate in all counties in the world. But how is that relevant to my reply?

You say devs aren’t forced to do business with Apple if they don’t like the rules. Similarly, Apple isn’t forced to do business in countries where it doesn’t like their rules. The point being, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[I7guy]

We don’t even need to wait. Apple already settled with Japan’s FTC on an older case. Of course Japan’s FTC also just opened another investigation into both Apple and Google.

Settling a case means nothing. Apple settles lawsuits as it sees fit. Did anything actionable change? Anyway, we'll see where this goes; right now it's a bunch of chest thumping and a chess game.

 

[Masonry]

There goes hope for those developers that were thinking they could now finally point users to their own save payment portals...

I will never use a payment system outside of Apple. Apple puts enormous resources to making a safe, convenient, and secure payment system.

 

[quarkysg]

If you pay at the checkout it appears you are being ripped off and that could cause the seller to lose the sale. Depending what the product is and how much the taxes are of course. But it does make you think twice about buying the product or not sometimes.

Which was why I said in my reply that taxes are designed for purpose based on the country’s situation. It’s impossible for outsiders to understand without also understanding the context.

Again, comparing taxes to Apple’s business doesn’t make sense.

 

[I7guy]

Says who, you? I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what’s being investigated in multiple instances. In fact, that’s exactly what Japan’s newest investigation is about.

Yep, me and the judge. Investigations and court cases are one thing. Actionable items are another.

Well let’s look at what the other poster said to whom I was originally responding:

Yes in terms of your original statement about being "forced" to use ios.

Yes, I believe that’s an apt analogy to the above statement.

Okay, point noted. I don't.

And yet that still doesn’t contradict what I said, which to remind you, was that governments can in fact step in and force changes to an illegal business model.

Yes and in the US in the epic vs apple case, they were cleared except for one provision that is being appealed.

This was never in dispute, and yet again, contradicts nothing I said. Ya know, it seems that you have a habit of sometimes restating what I myself said and then try to act like what you said is at odds with what I myself already said. I really don’t get that and it’s rather annoying. Is the strategy here to out debate me with my own words and arguments? It’s weird. If you agree with something I say, then just say so. Or leave the point unaddressed, even.

Ok.

 

[quarkysg]

You say devs aren’t forced to do business with Apple if they don’t like the rules. Similarly, Apple isn’t forced to do business in countries where it doesn’t like their rules. The point being, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

I think I said nobody is forced, not just developers.

And again I agree with you. Apple is not forced to do business with anyone or anywhere. The converse is true wouldn’t you agree?

Again I really don’t see your point wrt to my reply tho.

 

[I7guy]

You say devs aren’t forced to do business with Apple if they don’t like the rules. Similarly, Apple isn’t forced to do business in countries where it doesn’t like their rules. The point being, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

There's a difference. The app store model is basically the same for 13 years. And when devs signed on, the TOS hasn't materially changed with regard to how things work. (Sure some things have changed with the times.) However, no one country stopped Apple when it opened their respective app stores saying this way of business goes against our laws. Therein lies the difference.

 

[vipergts2207]

Settling a case means nothing. Apple settles lawsuits as it sees fit. Did anything actionable change? Anyway, we'll see where this goes; right now it's a bunch of chest thumping and a chess game.

Settlements happen when each side makes concessions to one another. Otherwise the plaintiff side would either drop the case or would see it through to a final decision. Feel free to read about Japan’s previous case below.

Apple Japanese antitrust investigation opens as another closes - 9to5Mac

An Apple Japanese antitrust investigation was closed last month, when the Cupertino company made a major concession. But just six weeks ...

9to5mac.com

 

[PlainBelliedSneetch]

You think the fraud was committed by Walmart? How exactly do you think that went down?

The timing was probably coincidental and the fraud was a result of shopping somewhere else or you purchased something on Walmart’s website through a third-party seller. Though even then, I don’t know if third-parties are given your credit card info for payment. I actively avoid shopping there because they’re a garbage company.

Probably someone who works for Walmart.com or some company they outsource to. It was at the start of the lockdown when companies were struggling with work from home. My purchase was from Walmart not a 3rd party seller. After my purchase the fraudulent charges from Walmart.com and samsclub.com started. Walmart has 1.5 million employees do you think they are all honest? I can’t prove it but I hadn’t used the card recently except for automatic payments that had been set up for years.

 

[vipergts2207]

Yep, me and the judge. Investigations and court cases are one thing. Actionable items are another.

The Japanese FTC would appear to disagree with you, otherwise there wouldn’t be anything for them to investigate.

Yes in terms of your original statemeYes and in the US in the epic vs apple case, they were cleared except for one provision that is being appealed.

I wasn’t talking about that case specifically, I was speaking generally, as was the person I was responding to.