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citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,950
25,928
Distress? I care more of the purpose of it.
Don’t see any real reason to go beyond: do you want to install this unverified app? Yes/no.
Questioning more the purpose of a ToS as you described it or if the intention is to dissuade people from using installing third party software.

Because trying to scare them will not fly legally.

It's not to scare people. It's to let regular people (those not into tech, and the majority of Apple customers - hairdressers, car salespeople, grocery store clerks, real estate agents, home builders, postal carriers, gardeners, artists, etc) know the app they're about to sideload has not been subject to the scrutiny that Apple enforces on the App Store. And thus there could be adverse consequences that they would have to deal with.

If a user is OK with that and doesn't mind dealing with potential adverse consequences, no worries, simply click the "I agree" button.

Most tech people who are OK with sideloading and deaing with potential adverse consequences will simply and reflexively click the "I agree" button as they do when emptying the Trash on a Mac. Which takes around an extra 1/2 second.
 
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Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,965
11,694
Sure, if you want to misrepresent everything I said then that's the camp I'm in 👍

I think you're in luck then, because that's not all it'll do, nor is that all that I've suggest it will do. If all you're going to do is twist my words then I don't really get the point in discussing this.

I honestly didn't intend to twist your words... Everything you're saying so far though is that nothing is going to change, nobody will leave the AppStore, we won't need to use anything other than the AppStore, and this will just give a path for the very few questionable applications that Apple doesn't like to reach iOS.

I don't think it's bad faith though to point out what I view as wishful thinking. I don't see how the EU gets the effect it's looking for without a change, and I don't see how the math holds together on the idea that it's only upside.

That's certainly your opinion. One could argue that there'd be no need for this regulation against gatekeepers if they hadn't been acting like gatekeepers for so long, but we're both just guessing what alternate timelines would bring at this point. Anyway, you're clearly not interested in having a good faith discussion so I'm tagging out.
✌️

It's not my opinion, it's the law. Article 3 is the list of thresholds.
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,265
Berlin, Berlin
It's harming me, because it allows software to exist outside the App Store.

I want all software to exist in the App Store or not at all.
Nobody cares what you want. You can safely ignore the mere possibility to side-load apps. But you want to suppress the choices of other people, which makes you ...

... an enemy of freedom. 🕊️
 
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JapanApple

macrumors 65816
Sep 16, 2022
1,300
4,258
Japan
Well, someone who used to do sideloaders/sideloading for a long time. I say no. Seeing how hackers manipulate apps etc. I wouldn't recommend it. (If I spend as much as I am these days, why would I be doing this to my devices? ). Apple needs to protect the data and safety of its buyers and its data. If that is done there is no reason why this can be!
 
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boss.king

macrumors 603
Apr 8, 2009
6,143
6,907
I honestly didn't intend to twist your words... Everything you're saying so far though is that nothing is going to change, nobody will leave the AppStore, we won't need to use anything other than the AppStore, and this will just give a path for the very few questionable applications that Apple doesn't like to reach iOS.
Okay, one last post just to clear up what I’m actually saying. Firstly, just because apps aren’t able to be distributed through the App Store doesn’t make them sketchy. It’s a great propaganda line if you work for Apple PR but it’s blatantly false.

And yeah, I don’t think this will meaningfully harm those who don’t wish to sideload. The idea that for one distribution method to succeed, the other has to be made worse is frankly kinda stupid and unfounded.

I don't think it's bad faith though to point out what I view as wishful thinking. I don't see how the EU gets the effect it's looking for without a change, and I don't see how the math holds together on the idea that it's only upside.
New, lucrative apps and app categories, like game streaming, etc are allowed to compete on iOS. Win for consumers and previously disallowed devs.

Apple gets to keep its walled garden with easier distribution for devs who need it and users who want a relatively idiot-proof experience. Win for Apple, existing devs, and users.

Devs who currently distribute through the App Store can continue to sell their app through the App Store, but also offer versions that might include more powerful features or previously disallowed experiences, or offered with different pricing models (just like devs currently do on MacOS). Win for Apple, existing devs, and users.

There’s increased competition and choice for the consumer, increased opportunity for devs who were previously limited by app review rules, and Apple can continue to profit from users who want a more locked-down experience.

This is pretty similar to what we already see on Android and on MacOS (although to a lesser extent as the Mac App Store is kind of a dumpster fire of Apple’s making).

It's not my opinion, it's the law. Article 3 is the list of thresholds.
It says right in the thing you linked to that this came as a result of companies amassing considerable economic power. I’m saying if Apple hadn’t squeezed so much money out of the App Store over the years while being the sole decider of who gets to compete on their platform, maybe this regulation would never have come about. It has, so it doesn’t really matter, but hopefully that makes my position clearer.
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,265
Berlin, Berlin
EU is like the Christian god. He tried to create humans in his own image and did a lousy job. Instead he should have left it up to evolution.
But it was always illegal to hinder competition by locking down the AppStore. Apple just ignored it, thinking mobile was a new market with new rules. So the EU legal system began to produce specific antibodies to fight this particular infection of the free market system. Now evolution will force Apple to adapt or die. Nobody can expect everyone to live by the law without a police force enforcing it. The sheriff is watching over his town like he always did. And he won't allow that some people want to play Hatfields & McCoys and take the law into their own hands. No auto-immune infections in this body of law.
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,426
2,262
Scandinavia
I honestly didn't intend to twist your words... Everything you're saying so far though is that nothing is going to change, nobody will leave the AppStore, we won't need to use anything other than the AppStore, and this will just give a path for the very few questionable applications that Apple doesn't like to reach iOS.

I don't think it's bad faith though to point out what I view as wishful thinking. I don't see how the EU gets the effect it's looking for without a change, and I don't see how the math holds together on the idea that it's only upside.
  1. Nobody will need to leave the AppStore
    • They will just exist on alternate planforms in parallel/specialised stores simultaneously(if possible)
  2. You don’t need to use anything outside the AppStore
    • But the option to use others with a better/specialised experience.
  3. It will give a path to few questionable applications
    • And millions of those that are just limited by technical limitations decided by policy
And here I will try to explain it with an existing policy
  1. Nobody will need to leave the Mac appstore
    • but alternate planforms such as steam/GOG can also provide a competitive storefront with different possibilities for developers.
  2. You don’t need to use anything outside the AppStore
    • But the option to use steam who offers greater specialized curation for consumers more interested in.
    • Use Firefox who also offers a great diversity and curation of extensions.
  3. It will give a path to few questionable applications
    • And millions of those that are just limited by technical limitations decided by arbitrary morals such as the Binding of Isaac or papers please being rejected for containing objectionable content and Agains
 
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Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,265
Berlin, Berlin
Well, someone who used to do sideloaders/sideloading for a long time. I say no. Seeing how hackers manipulate apps etc. I wouldn't recommend it. ( If I spend as much as I am these days, why would I be doing this to my devices? ). Apple needs to protect the data and safety of its buyers and its data. If that is done there is no reason why this can be!
The mere fact that Apple doesn't have the courage to outright forbid side-loading on macOS and cut the platform off of thousands of its most valuable apps, tells you everything of how much better iOS could be with side-loading. Every time the iPad Pro gets updated this whole forum complains that ipadOS wasn't even able to utilize last year's chip. This is in part the fault of Apple's own programmers, but in a bigger part it's also the fault of their gatekeeper strategy to shut out third-party developers from doing anything on/with the platform. macOS rules over iOS and you know it.
 
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JapanApple

macrumors 65816
Sep 16, 2022
1,300
4,258
Japan
The mere fact that Apple doesn't have the courage to outright forbid side-loading on macOS and cut the platform off of thousands of its most valuable apps, tells you everything of how much better iOS could be with side-loading. Every time the iPad Pro gets updated this whole forum complains that ipadOS wasn't even able to utilize last year's chip. This is in part the fault of Apple's own programmers, but in a bigger part it's also the fault of their gatekeeper strategy to shut out third-party developers from doing anything on/with the platform. macOS rules over iOS and you know it.
personal opinion is fine. I care more about safety.
 
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bsolar

macrumors 68000
Jun 20, 2011
1,534
1,735
personal opinion is fine. I care more about safety.

Safety is one of the reason I actually look forward to the possibility of side-loading as IMHO Safari is not the safest browser option. Currently on iOS every alternative browser option is basically a Safari reskin.
 
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Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,965
11,694
Okay, one last post just to clear up what I’m actually saying. Firstly, just because apps aren’t able to be distributed through the App Store doesn’t make them sketchy. It’s a great propaganda line if you work for Apple PR but it’s blatantly false.
I didn't say sketchy, I said questionable. You said adult material that Apple doesn't like or emulators that might be legally dubious. "Questionable" is more a one word summary of what you're saying than it is propaganda.

And yeah, I don’t think this will meaningfully harm those who don’t wish to sideload. The idea that for one distribution method to succeed, the other has to be made worse is frankly kinda stupid and unfounded.
Apple gets to keep its walled garden with easier distribution for devs who need it and users who want a relatively idiot-proof experience. Win for Apple, existing devs, and users.

The walled garden works because there are enough people in it that developers are willing to follow Apple's rules to access those users. It's like collective bargaining-- individually nobody cares what we think, but together we're worth paying attention to.

What will break it down is when the big players exit. As I've said in other threads, I expect Meta to leave first because they can finally duck the privacy controls. Google for the same reasons, and because they have the Play Store infrastructure in place so will just make that cross platform and distribute their stuff from it. Microsoft and Adobe because they're big enough to do it and can control their brand presentation. Epic because the world revolves around them. Steam because they have a working distribution platform already. If the anti-steering ruling doesn't make the streamers happy, Netflix and the others will retreat to their own sites.

The fact that they can now offer sideloads for both Android and iOS makes it easier to message now, and they they know they can always cry to the EU to force Google and Apple to make sideloading easier.

The problem here is that I don't want to leave the walled garden, but will be forced to when apps I depend on leave. The more people get peeled away to the alternate app stores, the less collective bargaining power we have.

It's not that the AppStore has to be made worse for side loading to succeed, it's just a natural consequence of the change.

New, lucrative apps and app categories, like game streaming, etc are allowed to compete on iOS. Win for consumers and previously disallowed devs.
I'll have to take your word for it that game streaming is worth all this... To me it seems like a petty reason to gut an entire business model. I get that theres things you want to do that you can't on iOS. But you can on Android. Android seems a better fit for people that want to treat their phone like it's a linux box and treating the phone like a linux box undermines the entire ethos of Apple and the reason many of us prefer Apple's products.

Devs who currently distribute through the App Store can continue to sell their app through the App Store, but also offer versions that might include more powerful features or previously disallowed experiences, or offered with different pricing models (just like devs currently do on MacOS). Win for Apple, existing devs, and users.

Why do you think they will? As I keep pointing out, it costs money and effort to do that. You can accuse me of propaganda, bad faith and word twisting all you want, but I keep seeing you and others insist that the world "can" be various ways while ignoring the economic realities.

It says right in the thing you linked to that this came as a result of companies amassing considerable economic power. I’m saying if Apple hadn’t squeezed so much money out of the App Store over the years while being the sole decider of who gets to compete on their platform, maybe this regulation would never have come about.

You're not reading the document. It's not anti-competitive as discussed in the Epic case, it is presumed to be anti-competitive because it's successful as measured by the user count and revenue and Apple's market cap. It has nothing to do with "squeezing" money out of the App Store, and specifically to the point you were making:
They could have opened up the App Store to more types of apps — game streaming, adult content, emulation, etc
it's not my opinion that wouldn't have changed anything. There are specific thresholds and Apple's success crossed those thresholds. Opening up to more revenue sources would only put them further past them.

The EUs response to their presumption of anti-competitiveness is to drain the platform of its popular uniqueness and essentially declare it a utility. What this means is that we will never again have a non-Android like platform that exceeds a certain level of success-- because it won't be allowed to.
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,965
11,694
  1. Nobody will need to leave the AppStore
    • They will just exist on alternate planforms in parallel/specialised stores simultaneously(if possible)
  2. You don’t need to use anything outside the AppStore
    • But the option to use others with a better/specialised experience.
For a very narrow definition of "need". Do people "need" to use Lightroom? Not like I need oxygen, but if it were critical to my work then I think "need" would be an appropriate term to use.

Can you guarantee that Lightroom will never, under any circumstance, leave the AppStore? If you can't, then you can't say no one will need to leave or to use anything outside the AppStore.

  1. It will give a path to few questionable applications
    • And millions of those that are just limited by technical limitations decided by policy
There's something like 4 million apps on the store now. So you think there are about as many applications being limited by policy as aren't? And if the number of apps suddenly doubles, you think people aren't going to go outside the AppStore to get them?

There is no self consistency in your assertions here...

And here I will try to explain it with an existing policy
  1. Nobody will need to leave the Mac appstore
    • but alternate planforms such as steam/GOG can also provide a competitive storefront with different possibilities for developers.
  2. You don’t need to use anything outside the AppStore
    • But the option to use steam who offers greater specialized curation for consumers more interested in.
    • Use Firefox who also offers a great diversity and curation of extensions.
  3. It will give a path to few questionable applications
    • And millions of those that are just limited by technical limitations decided by arbitrary morals such as the Binding of Isaac or papers please being rejected for containing objectionable content and Agains
Do you not see how much weaker a force the Mac AppStore is than the iOS one? Saying "don't worry, it'll just be like the Mac AppStore" isn't a vote in favor of this.

If it's on Steam but not the AppStore then you need to use something outside the AppStore.

You don't need to use iOS when Android exists, for a much broader usage of "need".
 
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Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,965
11,694
DMA_designations_Web_thumb_900x600px.jpg


I'm sure it's purely coincidence that there are no European gatekeepers or services being addressed... It does seem awfully convenient that none of the businesses that need to be brought to heel happen to be constituents...

"The trouble with the maples
And they're quite convinced they're right
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
[...]
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
by hatchet, axe and saw"
-- Peart
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,265
Berlin, Berlin
I'm sure it's purely coincidence that there are no European gatekeepers or services being addressed ...
The largest European country has only 0,083 billion citizens. Even if a single company could corner this entire market, it wouldn't amount to much. That's why politicians knew, Europe had to unite to play ball with Americans and Chinese. If Europe could be just one nation, one language, one culture, it would've steamrolled California twice already. But that's not how history turned out. Instead the EU is a multitude of vectors attacking American complacency from all angles. So you're big, Goliath! Huh?
 

Jackbequickly

macrumors 68030
Aug 6, 2022
2,501
2,560
I think the EU is getting too big for its britches. They are sticking their nose in everything and it is dangerous. It amazes me that their citizens think it is fine.
 
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amartinez1660

macrumors 68000
Sep 22, 2014
1,586
1,622
Game consoles are a highly competitive market and are generally sold at cost where they make up their revenue in software sales, and there are other alternative markets aside from game consoles like PC and mobile. This isn't like with smartphones where there are literally only two mobile operating systems, iOS and Android, and iOS software distribution is controlled solely by Apple and Apple alone.
I won’t defend Apple but I won’t defend gaming consoles either for a business decision they decided to make on their own… no matter “if it is hard”, or “competitive”, etc.
Don’t sell them at a loss then? Rethink the market if there’s no business?

We are already saying over here time and time again that macOS is the same as Windows, as iOS and as Android in that regard: “nobody is crying on macOS so they won’t cry on iOS”.
The Xbox basically runs windows too. The Switch has that Android approach of sorts, same for all the rest.
Plus, “if you don’t want it don’t use it, it’s always good to have the option”?. So let blanket make it an option.

If we are to go that route, better to commit: anything that’s a computer that can install things from the manufacturer, an AppStore or similar… should be forced to allow installing ANY sort software by the user.

If we are going to stick to side loading, then really stick to sideloading… even add cars’, TVs’ and whatnot operating computers and infotainments.

Isn’t the motto: “It’s MY device, I should be able to do what I want with it?” Okay, fine, roll that ball.

Else, making these distinctions is where the gates to unfairness, trickery and corruption happens.
 

falkon-engine

macrumors 65816
Apr 30, 2010
1,219
2,899
Mac with m1 m2 m3 allow for side loading. iPad with m1 and m2 disallow side loading. Internal inconsistency.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,310
24,046
Gotta be in it to win it
You're not allowed to tell me what I do with my iPhone. You don't own it. I do.
This is a nonsense post. Nobody is telling you what you can do with your phone. You can throw it off the cliff, jailbreak it throw it into a toilet. But it or not. It’s common sense if you don’t like the way a particular product operates, especially if it’s a lifestyle product, then don’t buy it.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,310
24,046
Gotta be in it to win it
But it was always illegal to hinder competition by locking down the AppStore.
Blatantly false on a worldwide basis.
Apple just ignored it, thinking mobile was a new market with new rules. So the EU legal system began to produce specific antibodies to fight this particular infection of the free market system. Now evolution will force Apple to adapt or die. Nobody can expect everyone to live by the law without a police force enforcing it. The sheriff is watching over his town like he always did. And he won't allow that some people want to play Hatfields & McCoys and take the law into their own hands. No auto-immune infections in this body of law.
Yep, they threaded the needle to entrap apple within their regulations.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,310
24,046
Gotta be in it to win it
The mere fact that Apple doesn't have the courage to outright forbid side-loading on macOS and cut the platform off of thousands of its most valuable apps, tells you everything of how much better iOS could be with side-loading. Every time the iPad Pro gets updated this whole forum complains that ipadOS wasn't even able to utilize last year's chip. This is in part the fault of Apple's own programmers, but in a bigger part it's also the fault of their gatekeeper strategy to shut out third-party developers from doing anything on/with the platform. macOS rules over iOS and you know it.
Their gatekeeper strategy has made apple the most valuable company. If the masses didn’t like apples policy as a sticking point they wouldn’t be buying the phone. (And before you say you don’t know how many really want sideloading, nobody does, but it’s clearly not a sticking point in preventing enough sales to make this valuable) sideloading and uncontrolled app loading only can propel apple into negative territory with all of this issues with the current App Store that people today complain about, warranted or not.
 
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