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Your suggestion, on the other hand, leaks a fundamental distrust in the programming behind iOS, wanting Apple to not take responsibility for any holes that arise from having third party apps.

It also suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of Apple's liabilities in regards of Apps from the official App Store. Apple basically denies any liability period:

NO WARRANTY: YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT USE OF THE LICENSED APPLICATION IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, THE LICENSED APPLICATION AND ANY SERVICES PERFORMED OR PROVIDED BY THE LICENSED APPLICATION ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" AND “AS AVAILABLE,” WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND.

So there is no need for Apple to further limit liability for apps installed through side-loading compared to the App Store, since they basically offer zero liability for apps from the App Store and there is no such thing as "less than zero liability"...
 
Your suggestion, on the other hand, leaks a fundamental distrust in the programming behind iOS, wanting Apple to not take responsibility for any holes that arise from having third party apps.

No distrust at all. It's an outstanding OS.

OTOH, if people with full knowledge voluntarily choose to eschew the App Store and as a result choose to not rely on the robust security/privacy/etc. scrutiny Apple imposes on submitted apps (with roughly 400,000 rejected in 2022 for various violations), then the user should not ask Apple for help should a sideloaded app cause the user or their iPhone harm.
 
the user should not ask Apple for help should a sideloaded app cause the user or their iPhone harm.

As posted above, Apple actually already denies any liability for apps installed through the official App Store, which are basically available "as is" and at the sole risk of the user.
 
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As posted above, Apple actually already denies any liability for apps installed through the official App Store, which are basically available "as is" and at the sole risk of the user.

And as posted above... the user should be presented with and pressing an "I acknowledge" button before sideloading any app. To protect both the user and Apple against any harm that could result (a very real possibility). Taking roughly an extra 1/2 second.
 
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And as posted above... the user should be presented with and pressing an "I acknowledge" button before sideloading any app. To protect both the user and Apple against any harm that could result. Taking roughly an extra 1/2 second.
You want the process to be unnecessarily more tedious without having any benefit whatsoever. The terms and conditions are already legally binding so that'd be literally useless both from a legal and usability standpoint.
 
And as posted above... the user should be presented with and pressing an "I acknowledge" button before sideloading any app. To protect both the user and Apple against any harm that could result (a very real possibility). Taking roughly an extra 1/2 second.

"I acknowledge" what, that Apple does not take responsibility for the app? Apple does not take responsibility already for App Store apps, so what's the difference?

PS: just to make clear, I'm not against a "warning" that side-loaded apps are not "curated" or whatever, but on the matter of responsibility, Apple does not take responsibility for apps no matter whether the app is from the official store or otherwise.
 
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For a very narrow definition of "need". Do people "need" to use Lightroom? Not like I need oxygen, but if it were critical to my work then I think "need" would be an appropriate term to use.

Can you guarantee that Lightroom will never, under any circumstance, leave the AppStore? If you can't, then you can't say no one will need to leave or to use anything outside the AppStore.
Well the same meaning of need you have for call of duty or angry birds, if it’s critical I would use that term.

its up to the markets and apple to convince if adobe should be available on the AppStore. If it’s critical for you then just go directly to the manufacturer or find an alternative. Vote with your dollars.

Why you only accept this on macros scale but never on the micro scale is baffling
There's something like 4 million apps on the store now. So you think there are about as many applications being limited by policy as aren't? And if the number of apps suddenly doubles, you think people aren't going to go outside the AppStore to get them?

There is no self consistency in your assertions here...
Sure but I mean more in apps including user generated content similar to steam and their use of the workshop category that developers can use.
Do you not see how much weaker a force the Mac AppStore is than the iOS one? Saying "don't worry, it'll just be like the Mac AppStore" isn't a vote in favor of this.

If it's on Steam but not the AppStore then you need to use something outside the AppStore.
Why does the force of the Mac AppStore provide in this context? Shouldn’t that be up to the market if it’s greener instead of corporate policy that protects them from internal competition?

Steam for Mac (march 2010) and Mac AppStore(April 2011) launched almost simultaneously.
But steam simply outcompeted and provided better services and results for the market and won on the merits of innovation. It’s not steam’s fault if developers don’t want to use apples options.

That’s why they have 5.600~ Mac games compared to the 1.400~ Mac games on the AppStore. Steam have about 1.300~ Mac games that are only available there.
And and estimated 200~ that only are on the Mac AppStore.

Steam earned 80%~ of the market by innovating better than everyone else.
You don't need to use iOS when Android exists, for a much broader usage of "need".
How is android a relevant option when it’s not the deciding factor?
Ther exist phones that offer better options than iPhones on subjective metrics.
There exist android versions that are more secure and locked than iOS.
There exist android stores that are more secure than the AppStore.

You don’t need to use iOS, but iOS is not part of the same market as android for the simple fact that everything on ios isn’t separated from the phone.
DMA_designations_Web_thumb_900x600px.jpg


I'm sure it's purely coincidence that there are no European gatekeepers or services being addressed... It does seem awfully convenient that none of the businesses that need to be brought to heel happen to be constituents...


"The trouble with the maples
And they're quite convinced they're right
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
[...]
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
by hatchet, axe and saw"
-- Peart
It’s actually a coincidence, we have a lower bar for what’s anti competitive so our companies are just more regulated compared to U.S. with a much higher thought standard to meet.

  • ASML HoldingASML They killed the American competition and forced them out of business
    • and now they’re world’s leading of chip-making equipment. . That Global foundries, Intel , Nvidia, AMD, Qualcomm, Apple and TSMC wouldn’t exist without
  • SAP with 77% of the world’s transaction revenue touches. Apple ,Google , Amazon and Microsoft use it as their ERP.
    • They outcompeted oracle and other U.S. companies as well.

EU just facilitated the right and opportunity exist, but that’s for the market through competition and consumer demand to decide how to approach the opportunities.
 
Blatantly false on a worldwide basis.
USA isn’t worldwide. So your statement is false in the premise. Eu uses the same anticompetitive laws as they have done for the last 30 years or so.
Yep, they threaded the needle to entrap apple within their regulations.
I think Apple did that completely by themselves. This is just ex-anti implementation of ex-post laws.
 
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You want the process to be unnecessarily more tedious without having any benefit whatsoever. The terms and conditions are already legally binding so that'd be literally useless both from a legal and usability standpoint.

I trust Apple lawyers will carefully make that decision.

As I said earlier, acknowledging would take 1/2 second of time, similar to the "Are you sure" button needing to be pressed before MacOS Trash can be emptied.

Though you'd probably find that and other 1/2 second acknowledgements tedious, life goes on, with planet Earth rotating into the Sun's rays the next morning.

You might not know the majority of Apple's 1 Billion customers are not as tech savvy as you, and should carefully consider sideloading apps. Especially as Apple rejected 400,000 apps last year, for various reasons - including for privacy/security issues.
 
It wouldn't be entirely bad if you could compile iOS apps without Xcode (which would be required to avoid crossing the DMA lines if Apple were to do what you said)
Well you could actually always do that. Xcode is only used for certification purposes as required by AppStore rules to be allowed on.
 
"I acknowledge" what, that Apple does not take responsibility for the app? Apple does not take responsibility already for App Store apps, so what's the difference?

PS: just to make clear, I'm not against a "warning" that side-loaded apps are not "curated" or whatever, but on the matter of responsibility, Apple does not take responsibility for apps no matter whether the app is from the official store or otherwise.

As I said earlier, to protect Apple and Users (who may not be as tech-sophisticated as you - the majority of Apple's 1 Billion customers aren't).

Apple lawyers, rather than a forum member, will come up with the proper language.
 
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As I said earlier, to protect Apple and Users (who may not be as tech-sophisticated as you - the majority of Apple's 1 Billion customers aren't).

That's ok, but your post at the start of the discussion was:

Sideloading is fine as long as users are required to make a choice in their iPhone Terms and Conditions to not hold Apple responsible for any iPhone bricking and security/privacy intrusions.

You should be on your own and take responsibility for any sideloading that causes you or your phone, harm.

Your post suggests that:
  • The Terms and Conditions should not hold Apple responsible for side-loaded apps... which is meaningless as Apple is already denying any responsibility for App Store apps.
  • The user should be the sole responsible for using side-loaded apps... which is also meaningless since the user is already the sole responsible for using App Store apps...
Any notion that Apple would take responsibility for App Store apps as opposed to side-loaded apps is explicitly refuted by the current License Agreement for App Store apps.
 
If you need that Choice that’s what android is for.

you also have that choice.
Ehhh… you know there exist android phones that gives you exactly that same thing you crave right?

You can use
  • The OS
    • GrapheneOS a custom operating system based on Android that is designed for maximum security and privacy. It has a hardened kernel, a verified boot process, and a sandboxed app environment.
  • The store
    • F-Droid: This is an app store that only hosts free and open source software (FOSS) apps. It has a strict review process and a transparent code base, so you can be sure that the apps you download are safe and malware-free. It also respects your privacy and does not track your activity or require any permissions.
  • The phone
 
As I said earlier, to protect Apple and Users (who may not be as tech-sophisticated as you - the majority of Apple's 1 Billion customers aren't).

Apple lawyers, rather than a forum member, will come up with the proper language.
And you say EU is babying their citizens.

Especially when it provides zero legal difference, it could even be so over the top it provides negative legal implications 😅

…and could be argued antitrust by going so overboard depending how you word it.

Google was fined for a similar thing few years ago.
 
USA isn’t worldwide. So your statement is false in the premise. Eu uses the same anticompetitive laws as they have done for the last 30 years or so.
So these new laws are 30 years old?
I think Apple did that completely by themselves. This is just ex-anti implementation of ex-post laws.
Nah it’s anti-American tech sentiment.
 
That's ok, but your post at the start of the discussion was:



Your post suggests that:
  • The Terms and Conditions should not hold Apple responsible for side-loaded apps... which is meaningless as Apple is already denying any responsibility for App Store apps.
  • The user should be the sole responsible for using side-loaded apps... which is also meaningless since the user is already the sole responsible for using App Store apps...
Any notion that Apple would take responsibility for App Store apps as opposed to side-loaded apps is explicitly refuted by the current License Agreement for App Store apps.

And in a subsequent post I included Users realizing I left that out.

There will be a new Agreement that deals with sideloading.
 
There will be a new Agreement that deals with sideloading.

The agreement will deny any responsibility exactly like for App Store apps, the difference being that side-loaded apps will not be licensed from Apple in the first place, for obvious reasons.
 
The agreement will deny any responsibility exactly like for App Store apps, the difference being that side-loaded apps will not be licensed from Apple in the first place, for obvious reasons.

Of course, with specific language addressing sideloading.
 
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