5 million might sound a small amount, and they are for Apple, but 5 million here and 5 there...
Having lots of money is a think, wasting them is another, while 5 million won't hurt Apple, I am sure they are not happy about losing them.
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Apple Fined Another €5 Million Over Dating Apps as Dutch Regulators Say Apple Has 'Refused to Put Forward Any Serious Proposals'
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Having lots of money is a think, wasting them is another, while 5 million won't hurt Apple, I am sure they are not happy about losing them.
All these comments and not one plausible explanation for Apple's stubbornness that I could find.
Even if we argue that €50 million is chump change for Apple, how do you think regulators feel with each passing week?
What I am suggesting is that regulators' stances are only hardening towards Apple.
The more arrogant and indifferent Apple comes across, the harder regulators are going to want to spank them.
So... why is Apple doing this? What's the end game?
Even if we argue that €50 million is chump change for Apple, how do you think regulators feel with each passing week?
What I am suggesting is that regulators' stances are only hardening towards Apple.
The more arrogant and indifferent Apple comes across, the harder regulators are going to want to spank them.
So... why is Apple doing this? What's the end game?
Buy time to negotiate a better deal: could be lower App Store fees or a “proportional” cut in “external” payment agencies fees or both. Red line is Anything that enforce sideloading. Off App payments can be monitored…
I may have this wrong and if so apologies but it looks like it to me that the dutch ACM are telling Apple that must allow dating app developers to provide BOTH payment options within their app thus allowing the user to chose the one they would like to use but in doing it this way Apple cannot enforce commission because one of the payment systems is out of Apples control thus they would fall foul of regulator laws if they tried to get commission on something that has nothing to do with them BUT with trying to get the dating app developers to make the choice on what payment system they use in their app, Apple could still get their commission if the Apple payment system was chosen by the app developer.
With having an app having both options, only the app developer would know which payment system the user chose, not apple, thus commission cannot be charged. This is why I think Apple is figthing to hard with the ACM because Apple have said the dating apps are to have one or the other payment system, not both whereas the ACM are saying dating apps are to offer both.
With having an app having both options, only the app developer would know which payment system the user chose, not apple, thus commission cannot be charged. This is why I think Apple is figthing to hard with the ACM because Apple have said the dating apps are to have one or the other payment system, not both whereas the ACM are saying dating apps are to offer both.
Wonder if it’s like some other European laws that allow if required a company to be fined 10% of its entire annual profit of turnover can‘t remember which, in fines. That’ll affect the stock price.
Maybe you’re right. Though I understood subscription management and payment are not the same, hence as long as Apple controls App management albeit payment can be made through 3rd parties, it would enable Apple to keep track of subscriptions.
I think it’s the case that in both instances Apple will charge commission.
The commission is charged automatically when a user pays through Apple IAP.
The commission is remitted back to Apple after the fact when a user pays through a 3rd party payment system.
Change the system going forward and don’t be a Monday morning quarterback and now regulate what the system allowed. (Unless there was some societal safety add aspect)
The ruling was to allow multiple forms of payment. Apple complied.
It makes sense to target one of the smaller (with big pockets) categories of Apps. If it pushes through It sets precedence for other app categories to follow suit.
This is very naive, The Netherlands is part of the EU single market. European treaties do not permit such geoblocking based on country of residence [1]. Both for physical goods and online purchases. This is probably also the reason why e.g. if you are in NL, you can just create a German Apple account and purchase from the German iTunes/App store.
If Apple would attempt to remove their products from the Dutch market, this would trigger EU-level action. And those fines would definitely not be pocket (or ash tray) money for Apple.
Besides that, as a result of the Apple/Google App Store duopoly (among other things), the EU is preparing legislation that would require platforms to support side loading and alternative app stores. I would definitely not like that from a security perspective, but the Apple/Google platforms have becomes utilities [2], so either they start acting like utilities (meaning ending the greedy/absurd 30% commissions) or they will be regulated. In the long term, Apple is shooting themselves in the foot, but it seems that current management is blind to this issue.
[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32018R0302
[2] It doesn't matter that the basis of Android is open source, or that there are multiple vendors, Google effectively regulates the whole platform, since an Android phone is pretty worthless without the proprietary Google Play Services and Google App Store.
The Netherlands have to raise the fines dramatically by the factor 10 or 100. They should install a new law for big tech companies. Apple doesn't care about 50 million dollars - maybe Apple would care about 500 million or 5 billion dollars.
But I think the EU has to kick in to get Apple moving. Go for it!!!
But I think the EU has to kick in to get Apple moving. Go for it!!!
With that philosophy we’d all be living in the feudal system of medieval times. No thanks.
Are app stores really considered utilities now? What makes something a utility?
‘a utility is a basic service that your business needs to keep running’.
Do developers need app stores to keep running or can they run their businesses on the open web? It’s quite difficult to argue that dating apps need App Stores to run their business as dating websites successfully operated prior to the app store existing.
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Except that this is is not what the ruling says. If you read the ruling [1], it says that Apple uses it's position of the exclusive gatekeeper of the platform to impose unjust regulation upon dating app providers. They say it is valid for Apple to apply limitations to ensure quality, privacy, and security, but many other regulations are unfair and not necessary to protect privacy, etc. Not allowing other payment methods is one major example of this abuse of power.
[1] https://www.acm.nl/sites/default/fi...ruik-economische-machtspositie-door-apple.pdf
The ACM ruling is quite clear about that: they point out that modern dating utilities require the infrastructure offered by Apple's and Google's platform, such as reliable delivery of notifications, geolocation, etc. These are all possible to some extend on the web, however it's clear that native applications can hook into background refresh, etc.
The law?
The EU is putting forward legislation to consider app stores and other platforms as utilities (well, except that they call them gatekeepers):
The Digital Markets Act: ensuring fair and open digital markets
Discover how the Digital Markets Act ensures large online platforms in the EU behave fairly, and allows new players to enter the market, thus developing a fast evolving digital sector.
So, stronger regulation is coming. It's FAANG's own fault, if they cannot regulate themselves and abuse users/businesses, it's time to regulate them. But I realize that this is my perspective through mainland European glasses. In contrast to what others in this thread say (it's a money grab, corrupt governments), this is what we do in Europe. European businesses are regulated as well and often it's good for consumers (e.g., we have far better warranty than in other places).
The ACM ruling is quite clear about that: they point out that modern dating utilities require the infrastructure offered by Apple's and Google's platform, such as reliable delivery of notifications, geolocation, etc. These are all possible to some extend on the web, however it's clear that native applications can hook into background refresh, etc.
The law?
The Digital Markets Act: ensuring fair and open digital markets
Discover how the Digital Markets Act ensures large online platforms in the EU behave fairly, and allows new players to enter the market, thus developing a fast evolving digital sector.ec.europa.eu
So, stronger regulation is coming. It's FAANG's own fault, if they cannot regulate themselves and abuse users/businesses, it's time to regulate them. But I realize that this is my perspective through mainland European glasses. In contrast to what others in this thread say (it's a money grab, corrupt governments), this is what we do in Europe. European businesses are regulated as well and often it's good for consumers (e.g., we have far better warranty than in other places).
It's not so much regulating themselves it's that they have become more popular than they ever dreamt and have ended up in this situation without actually doing anything intrinsically monopolistic or predatory to get there. Apple's App Store terms have, after all, got more generous over time, not less.
I think this is why some people don't like what is now happening; the Apple App Store has become successful because Apple took a risk and invested a lot of money into something no one knew would turn out to be so successful. Now some people see Apple being punished for taking that risk instead of celebrated and see it as a threat to innovation.
There's also the issue of regulators ruining products and services for people in the name of competition. Just look at how annoying GDPR cookie notices are. There's a worry that regulators are about to ruin iOS and make it like Android with their broad brush approach.
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One thing that puzzles me about this case is that not only myself but others in here have touched on it as well which is, if as Apple supporters put it, Apple would still recieve it's commission if both payments options were offered in the app because Apple would know that it's payment system was the one that the user selected to use. Well if that is true then why is Apple so against the idea and recieving constant fines for it?
the dutch ACM is saying dutch dating app's are to offer both payment systems together in the app, Apples payment system and a 3rd party payment system and the user gets to chose which one to use but Apple is saying no. Therefore the commission idea from Apple supporters must be wrong then. The only other reason I can think of is that Apple want control of what goes on with the dating app and make the decsions of what the app developer is allowed or not allowed to do.
the dutch ACM is saying dutch dating app's are to offer both payment systems together in the app, Apples payment system and a 3rd party payment system and the user gets to chose which one to use but Apple is saying no. Therefore the commission idea from Apple supporters must be wrong then. The only other reason I can think of is that Apple want control of what goes on with the dating app and make the decsions of what the app developer is allowed or not allowed to do.
Oh it already is a. EU issue as they are currently under an anti competitive probe related to the AppStore
Apple is fundamentally against the idea of allowing 3rd party payment systems in the first place even if they will continue to collect commission on those payments.
I suspect for Apple it's about having sovereignty over their own products and services rather than being told by regulators what they can and can't do. Apple are also strongly consumer driven and this action is from developers trying to drive a wedge between consumers and Apple.
1: dating app developers where the ones to file the complaints.
2: EU already have launched an investigation in the AppStore
3: EU investigations takes precedence over national courts and would essentially force them to wait if they included anything more.
iOS is. Remember they are talking about the iOS and the AppStore. Not the hardware.
iPhone competes with Samsung, BBK, Xiaomi, Huawe etc.
Apple iOS competes with google android
Don’t think so. Where the public safety and security regulate away. Leave business to battle it out with their customers via voting with your wallet. No thanks to this system either, the feudal system is no different than this.