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Can someone please explain to me how the government is protecting consumers here?


The government is protecting the markets. The goal is not to protect consumers, even if that is one effect of the laws involved here.

These laws were written long before "consumers" were an identified interest group. The intent was to remove barriers to the workings of a free market, and not to "protect consumers".

How is Apple guilty of price fixing if the agency model gives power to the publisher to set prices on books instead of the retailer? Apple has no control over prices under the agency model.

Apple rasied that objection, and the judge dealt with it specifically:

"Cue asserted fromthe witness stand, Apple did not raise prices;the Publishers raised prices. Apple claims it should not beheld liable for the “business decisions” the PublisherDefendants made in the early part of 2010.

Apple is correct that the conspiracy required the fullparticipation of the Publisher Defendants if it were to achieveits goals. It is also correct that the Publishers wanted tochange Amazon’s pricing policies and to raise e-book prices, andthat they had wanted to do that for many months before Applearrived on the scene.

But, those facts do not erase Apple’s ownintentions in entering into this scheme. Apple did not want tocompete with Amazon on price and proposed to the Publishers amethod through which both Apple and the Publishers could eachachieve their goals.

The record is equivocal on whether Apple itself desired highere-book prices than those offered at Amazon. It is unequivocalthough that Apple embraced higher prices so convincingly thatthe Publishers believed that Apple was content with, and evenwanted, higher prices, and that Apple’s cooperation with thePublisher Defendants enabled themto raise prices.Apple was an essential member of thecharged conspiracy and was fully complicit in the scheme toraise e-book prices even though the Publisher Defendants alsohad their own roles to play"
 
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So you're OK with Apple's monopoly of the music industry then. Gotcha.

As far as I know, there have not been issues with the prices Apple is charging for its music. The prices are pretty much on par with other similar services, with similar terms and contracts with the recording labels. Last I read, when Apple negotiated the radio stuff for instance, it was paying a bunch more than Pandora, etc. Controlling the market isn't the sin, controlling the market and using that to destroy competition is.

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IMO, the DOJ should investigate Amazon's strategies, and if found to be illegal, the DOJ should prosecute Amazon.

Are you surprised by that opinion?

No, it just wasn't apparent from your other positions. Glad we can agree on something.
 
but (so far) having left Amazon, holding 90% of the market AND engaging in behavior clearly limiting competition, to continue happily?

What behavior is that?

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IMO, the DOJ should investigate Amazon's strategies, and if found to be illegal, the DOJ should prosecute Amazon.

Are you surprised by that opinion?

The DoJ investigated Amazon and they found nothing illegal
 
Controlling the market isn't the sin, controlling the market and using that to destroy competition is.


Amazon, to date, has not been found guilty of doing anything other than being very successful with their business model to sell eBooks.

And if you think Apple isn't bent on destroying competition, you're misinformed.

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Selling books under cost and profiting by using their market position/resources to continue that loss in a way that makes it impossible for others to succeed in the same market. You are reading this thread before posting, right?

Select books. Overall the eBook market was profitable.

Why are you (and others) ignoring the facts.

And Apple could have easily succeeded by simple not taking 30%. Amazon did not force Apple to keep to their "cut." Apple could have sold books for the same price as Amazon and just made less. They chose not to.
 
Selling books under cost and profiting by using their market position/resources to continue that loss in a way that makes it impossible for others to succeed in the same market. You are reading this thread before posting, right?

You know that Amazon's ebook division was profitable, don't you? You know that DoJ investigated that division and found nothing illegal, don't you?

So, what behavior are you talking about?

You are reading this thread before posting, right?
 
In providing cheaper ebooks to consumers? OH NO.

I guess I forgot that in your eyes Apple "dominating" the world is good, but some other company like Amazon that doesn't price gouge the ever loving hell out of every product it sells is just pure evil.

You "forgot" something that isn't true. Please point out evidence that "in my eyes" anyone dominating the world is good.

Keep trying... you will be here a long time.
 
I think you misunderstand the Court's role here...

Amazon 1 - Apple 0 - Consumers 1(today) 0 (tomorrow)

No misunderstanding at all, this is what you get with "Closed Ecosystem"

Consumers (yesterday) 0 - Apple and publishers 1 (collusion to fix prices...)

Score now reversed
 
You know that Amazon's ebook division was profitable, don't you? You know that DoJ investigated that division and found nothing illegal, don't you?

So, what behavior are you talking about?

You are reading this thread before posting, right?

Allow me to start by apologizing, I should not have snarked you and pulled the conversation down.

A "division being profitable" is not the same thing as "not selling books below cost to destroy competition". As my other comments make clear, I do not believe the DoJ has applied reasonable attention to Amazon's practices, and find it's attack on Apple to be motivated by cheap politics and headlines over a concern for a properly functioning economy. Amazon's charges less for its books AND controls 90% of the market and others have not been able to compete (exist and make a profit on the same products). Soemthing stinks there. Apple can exist in the market taking a loss, and even then occupies a small sliver. If even Apple couldn't compete with their iphone/ipad backing, how could a small entity? A company's dominant size should not be allowed to justify it's ownership of a market.
 
As a consumer - I care about getting the best price for what I want to buy. So no - I don't care that Amazon wants to take a hit sometimes. Do I want Amazon to be the only eBook seller. No. But they won't ever be. The market won't allow it. As soon as they have achieved "monopoly" and (as some fear) start jacking up prices - that's when competition can enter the marketplace and charge less - just like Amazon used to.

If Amazon didn't think they could do EXACTLY that and be successful at it, they wouldn't have spent a decade LOSING a BILLION dollars just to drive out all their competition. Your perspective on this is so naive it makes Pollyanna seem as worldly as a Staten Island bus driver by comparison.
 
Allow me to start by apologizing, I should not have snarked you and pulled the conversation down.

A "division being profitable" is not the same thing as "not selling books below cost to destroy competition". As my other comments make clear, I do not believe the DoJ has applied reasonable attention to Amazon's practices, and find it's attack on Apple to be motivated by cheap politics and headlines over a concern for a properly functioning economy. Amazon's charges less for its books AND controls 90% of the market and others have not been able to compete (exist and make a profit on the same products). Soemthing stinks there. Apple can exist in the market taking a loss, and even then occupies a small sliver. If even Apple couldn't compete with their iphone/ipad backing, how could a small entity? A company's dominant size should not be allowed to justify it's ownership of a market.

So if you started a business and it became wildly profitable and a juggernaut and you did it all above board - ie- you did not break any laws - you would welcome the government stepping in to make sure other people could compete with you?
 
A "division being profitable" is not the same thing as "not selling books below cost to destroy competition".

Yes, it is the same, because you're implying that Amazon was selling all the books at a loss and that is not true. Selling some books at a loss is not illegal.


As my other comments make clear, I do not believe the DoJ has applied reasonable attention to Amazon's practices, and find it's attack on Apple to be motivated by cheap politics and headlines over a concern for a properly functioning economy.

Then it is opinion, but not facts
 
I think some of you are confused or believing the government position hook line and sinker.

The publishers did have control over pricing but they priced books individually based on a number of factors including projected popularity, genre and whether the ebook had interactive features that were obviously not in the paper copy.

The price of individual books would have fluctuated based on demand. The more popular a book was, the cheaper it could become after the initial sales. Early buyers/adopters always pay more.

What you guys are not seeing here is that some ebooks were more interactive than others and that interactivity should command some sort of premium.

It was Amazon that was trying to enforce some sort of broad wholesale price on books regardless of how much a particular book cost to produce. They were trying to leverage their market position to not only keep prices artificially low as a barrier to entry but also willing to take a lose out of their own pocket to drive sales of their hardware.

The Amazon model will result in some books simply not being published because they might not be popular enough to justify the initial investment and printing because of the rock bottom prices from Amazon. Those lower prices forced other stores to also lower their prices below cost or forced publishers to sell below their wholesale cost.

This battle is not just about eBooks but the entire book industry. You should not be in favor of dumping or predatory pricing because in the long run, you will miss out on some books that never see the light of day.

One more thing, Amazon devices typically did not support interactivity which is part of the reason why they just want ebooks to be basically PDF versions of the paper book wrapped in DRM.

They want to drive Apple out of the industry because Apple can provide a better experience for ebooks than they can.
 
If Amazon didn't think they could do EXACTLY that and be successful at it, they wouldn't have spent a decade LOSING a BILLION dollars just to drive out all their competition. Your perspective on this is so naive it makes Pollyanna seem as worldly as a Staten Island bus driver by comparison.

Your snark aside - you've missed business 101. Even if Amazon destroyed all businesses - and then raised prices - another business would come in and undercut them. That's how free enterprise works.

That's not being pollyana or naive. It's called economics.
 
Yes, it is the same, because you're implying that Amazon was selling all the books at a loss and that is not true. Selling some books at a loss is not illegal.




Then it is opinion, but not facts

Selling the RIGHT books at a loss with the purpose of destroying competition could very well be illegal, WHATEVER the rest of the company is doing, including ending war, feeding the homeless or battling Mothra.

Re: opinion vs. fact, glad you learned that distinction. I don't recall saying that I was adjudicating the issue for the courts.
 
Right, that's why we're annoyed with the DoJ.

I've responded to the same point you make below in another post.

Well (sadly) I'm afraid you're going to have to get over it. Apple was found guilty. The agency model is pretty much dead. And even if Apple appeals and wins - the agency model won't return.
 
What you guys are not seeing here is that some ebooks were more interactive than others and that interactivity should command some sort of premium.

What has to do that with the case?

It was Amazon that was trying to enforce some sort of broad wholesale price on books regardless of how much a particular book cost to produce. They were trying to leverage their market position to not only keep prices artificially low as a barrier to entry but also willing to take a lose out of their own pocket to drive sales of their hardware.

They didn't take a lose, the division was profitable


The Amazon model will result in some books simply not being published because they might not be popular enough to justify the initial investment and printing because of the rock bottom prices from Amazon

Publishers get the sholesale price

One more thing, Amazon devices typically did not support interactivity which is part of the reason why they just want ebooks to be basically PDF versions of the paper book wrapped in DRM.

DRM is not forced by Amazon, but for publishers. By the way, X-Ray

They want to drive Apple out of the industry because Apple can provide a better experience for ebooks than they can.

I didn't knew that Apple was selling books in 2008
 
I think some of you are confused or believing the government position hook line and sinker.

The publishers did have control over pricing but they priced books individually based on a number of factors including projected popularity, genre and whether the ebook had interactive features that were obviously not in the paper copy.

The price of individual books would have fluctuated based on demand. The more popular a book was, the cheaper it could become after the initial sales. Early buyers/adopters always pay more.

This is complete BS.

On July 23, 2010 I paid $4.15 for the Kindle version of A Song of Fire and Ice.
Do you know what the price is today? Demand for Game of Thrones has surely skyrocketed since then. This ebook is $9.99 now.

I was going to buy the rest of the books but noticed the exhorbitant price increases after Apple got involved.

I can't believe you people are not seeing what went on here.

There is no "interactive" features in this book.
 
Your snark aside - you've missed business 101. Even if Amazon destroyed all businesses - and then raised prices - another business would come in and undercut them. That's how free enterprise works.

That's not being pollyana or naive. It's called economics.

I asked you before what the point of anti-trust law is then. Apparently if it gets Apple it's ok, because the market can't save us from Apple, but if it attacks Amazon it's bad, because the market can save us from Amazon.
 
Selling the RIGHT books at a loss with the purpose of destroying competition could very well be illegal, WHATEVER the rest of the company is doing, including ending war, feeding the homeless or battling Mothra.


And exactly why can be illegal? By the way, the DoJ didn't found it illegal.

Guilty until even if proven innocent much?

Re: opinion vs. fact, glad you learned that distinction. I don't recall saying that I was adjudicating the issue for the courts.

The it is clear that the discussion doesn't make sense.
 
S'funny. People who believe that functioning markets are a necessary basis for capitalism generally like it that the DOJ did both of those things.

The DOJ is the worst enemy of free markets. Actually, true capitalists like me don't think anti-trust laws should exist.

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No, she said that they the government can prove the case after looking at the evidence.

She said they were likely to prevail before hearing any of the evidence.
 
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