Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
And I'd rather sell a hundred gadgets at $500 each than a thousand at $10 each. Which is exactly what Apple is doing in both the computer and the mobile phone markets. And that's exactly the right approach.
Generally I agree with much of your post. However, "and that's exactly the right approach", is only one approach, and it's nothing more than an opinion as well.

It's the right approach if all you care about is maximizing profit (and don't get me wrong, that's certainly not a bad thing).

However, there's nothing wrong at all with maximizing market share, even if it comes at the cost of a low margin. A lot of times, maximizing market share at the expense of lower margins in the short term translates into continuous, steady profits for the long term.

Game consoles are a perfect example of this. A lot of the times, the console maker will sell the system at a low margin (or a loss) in order to maximize the number of individuals buying the system. That translates into far more people buying peripherals, games, etc., all which result in sustained profit (and with time, the costs of the console itself will come down, meaning eventually most console makers end up generating a decent profit on the system as well).

Don't discount the marketshare approach just because it's not Apple's desired business strategy (at times).
 
Because supporting features that haven't even been released yet = worthless?

TRIM was just finally pushed out. Linux and Windows 7 had TRIM support *before* TRIM was even available yet for users to upgrade to.

What's your definition of innovation then? Only features that Apple themselves creates/provides?

Innovation suggests they created something. You need to look up Innovation because it doesn't mean what you think it means. Trim was not a creation product so it is not Microsoft's Innovation. You should be praising their initiative.

innovation |ˌinəˈvā sh ən|
noun
the action or process of innovating.
• a new method, idea, product, etc. : technological innovations designed to save energy.
 
Innovation suggests they created something. You need to look up Innovation because it doesn't mean what you think it means. Trim was not a creation product so it is not Microsoft's Innovation. You should be praising their initiative.

innovation |ˌinəˈvā sh ən|
noun
the action or process of innovating.
• a new method, idea, product, etc. : technological innovations designed to save energy.
Then what has Apple truly "innovated" recently? From what I've always seen, Apple has usually taken already-existing ideas, and improved upon them. It's certainly a great business plan, but then per your defined meaning for innovation (and I will admit, mine was wrong), Apple rarely "innovates" also.
 
thats pretty awesome considering apple only has one phone on the market at a time while nokia who is #1 has many different phones available at the same time
 
Almost everything they touch.
Name something then. That's all I'm asking.

I view Apple as being a great improver on existing technologies:

iPod - MP3 players existed long before the iPod. Apple simply improved the functionality, connectivity and portability.

iPhone - Smartphones, including touch screens, existed before the iPhone. Apple improved upon them.

iTunes - music apps, even those designed for MP3 players, existed before. Apple improved.

OS X - an improvement upon BSD, taking a Unix-based OS that a consumer could likely never get into, and opening up the stability and features to the masses.

Many of the software products Apple now offers were once developed/owned by other companies, and Apple either bought the companies outright, or purchased the software itself. They improved upon them, definitely, and now they're vastly more popular, but once again, it's improvements, not innovation.

mDP is a recent feature I can think of Apple pushing fairly well. Firewire in the late 90s (and its various incarnations since). Otherwise, I can't think of much that Apple has really done, that didn't already exist in some form prior.
 
My dictionary has this definition for the verb "innovate". Seems to align more closely with what Apple does? Then again, it's the Apple "Spotlight" dictionary that I used. :D

innovate |ˈinəˌvāt|
verb [ intrans. ]
make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products

You know a thread has pretty much hit bottom when definitions are being thrown around. :)
 
Name something then. That's all I'm asking.

I view Apple as being a great improver on existing technologies:

iPod - MP3 players existed long before the iPod. Apple simply improved the functionality, connectivity and portability.

iPhone - Smartphones, including touch screens, existed before the iPhone. Apple improved upon them.

iTunes - music apps, even those designed for MP3 players, existed before. Apple improved.

OS X - an improvement upon BSD, taking a Unix-based OS that a consumer could likely never get into, and opening up the stability and features to the masses.

Many of the software products Apple now offers were once developed/owned by other companies, and Apple either bought the companies outright, or purchased the software itself. They improved upon them, definitely, and now they're vastly more popular, but once again, it's improvements, not innovation.

mDP is a recent feature I can think of Apple pushing fairly well. Firewire in the late 90s (and its various incarnations since). Otherwise, I can't think of much that Apple has really done, that didn't already exist in some form prior.

Based on current definitions, pick virtually any product they introduced in the last decade. There's kind of a reason they're where they are now, dontcha think?
 
My dictionary has this definition for the verb "innovate". Seems to align more closely with what Apple does? Then again, it's the Apple "Spotlight" dictionary that I used. :D

innovate |ˈinəˌvāt|
verb [ intrans. ]
make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products

You know a thread has pretty much hit bottom when definitions are being thrown around. :)
Pfft, well clearly the only definitive source is the Oxford English Dictionary:

innovate, v.
To bring in (something new) the first time; to introduce as new.

:p

(and I'm just kidding about it being the only definitive source)
 
However, there's nothing wrong at all with maximizing market share, even if it comes at the cost of a low margin. A lot of times, maximizing market share at the expense of lower margins in the short term translates into continuous, steady profits for the long term.

There is plenty wrong with maximizing market share if you are going to destroy your brand in the process. What is Dell known for now? Cheap computers. Want a cheap computer? You buy a Dell! So when Dell introduces an expensive (read: good profit margins) computer model, everyone says "$$$$ for a Dell? Screw that!" How do you ever recover your brand from bargain-bin status? Not an easy task. I don't think that's exactly the position a company should want to be.

I believe Steve Jobs once said in an interview that you don't lower prices because you can never raise them again. And Dell is now relegated to the status of selling $399 computers to the world. Bad move.

Game consoles are a perfect example of this. A lot of the times, the console maker will sell the system at a low margin (or a loss) in order to maximize the number of individuals buying the system. That translates into far more people buying peripherals, games, etc., all which result in sustained profit (and with time, the costs of the console itself will come down, meaning eventually most console makers end up generating a decent profit on the system as well).

Game consoles are a perfect example of what not to do.

Newsflash: Microsoft is still billions in the hole with Xbox. Billions! Sure, they say theirs is a long-term strategy that will result in "sustained profit" as you say, but by the time they're digging out of their original hole they have to introduce a new console (at a loss) and start the whole bleeding process again. It's a never-ending process of losing money.

Nintendo started selling the Wii at a profit from day one. You don't think Sony or Microsoft would rather be in Nintendo's shoes right now?

When Toyota decided it wanted to unseat GM as the world's market share leader, their quality took a dive and their brand has been tarnished. Bad move.

Making the pursuit of market share your singular driving strategy is a fool's errand.

Don't discount the marketshare approach just because it's not Apple's desired business strategy (at times).

I discount the market share approach because it seems to be disastrous for most companies that attempt it.
 
Then what has Apple truly "innovated" recently? From what I've always seen, Apple has taken already-existing ideas, and improved upon them.

The sad thing is you could replace Apple with any other company and it would still be true.

Features in Windows 7 were already available in Linux in the form of KDE 4.3 and kWin.
 
innovate |ˈinəˌvāt|
verb [ intrans. ]
make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products : the company's failure to diversify and innovate competitively.
• [ trans. ] introduce (something new, esp. a product) : innovating new products, developing existing ones.

The problem is, "innovation" is a very broad and often misused term. I stay away from it as much as I can.
 
Based on current definitions, pick virtually any product they introduced in the last decade. There's kind of a reason they're where they are now, dontcha think?
No, I think Apple is largely where it is now thanks in large part to the iPod. The iMac, etc., all helped Apple to survive (and I would consider the original iMac innovative, btw).

The iPod helped to introduce millions of more customers to Apple. These millions of customers, seeing how well made and "fun" the iPod was, started to see Apple as this "hip" company in tune with what customers wanted, etc.

From there, you started to see far more people willing to consider purchasing an Apple computer (and more often than not, an Apple laptop, which sales figures seem to confirm). This was especially true amongst the college crowd, but slowly it's opened up across the entire age spectrum of consumers.

Ultimately, all of those who ended up purchasing a Mac (whether it was a MB, a MBP, an iMac, etc) raved to their friends about it in some form or another, and as people saw how sleek and intuitive Apple's systems were (plus the aspect, that can't be understated, of wanting something that's "cool"), more peopled ended up purchasing them.

Now it's to the point where the iPod or the iPhone don't need to help drive sales of other products. Apple now has an image, and it helps all of their products to generally sell. A large part of that developed image though is in part due to the iPod.

Were there areas where the iPod innovated? Sure. But it was largely an improvement on existing products in the market. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Now, Apple could release an old smelly dog with the Apple logo branded on its fur, and people would buy it up, lol.
 
The sad thing is you could replace Apple with any other company and it would still be true.

Features in Windows 7 were already available in Linux in the form of KDE 4.3 and kWin.

Not to mention. that Windows 7 actually is KDE 4:

KDE_4.png

Talk about innovation
 
No, I think Apple is largely where it is now thanks in large part to the iPod. The iMac, etc., all helped Apple to survive (and I would consider the original iMac innovative, btw).

The iPod helped to introduce millions of more customers to Apple. These millions of customers, seeing how well made and "fun" the iPod was, started to see Apple as this "hip" company in tune with what customers wanted, etc.

From there, you started to see far more people willing to consider purchasing an Apple computer (and more often than not, an Apple laptop, which sales figures seem to confirm). This was especially true amongst the college crowd, but slowly it's opened up across the entire age spectrum of consumers.

Ultimately, all of those who ended up purchasing a Mac (whether it was a MB, a MBP, an iMac, etc) raved to their friends about it in some form or another, and as people saw how sleek and intuitive Apple's systems were (plus the aspect, that can't be understated, of wanting something that's "cool"), more peopled ended up purchasing them.

Now it's to the point where the iPod or the iPhone don't need to help drive sales of other products. Apple now has an image, and it helps all of their products to generally sell. A large part of that developed image though is in part due to the iPod.

Were there areas where the iPod innovated? Sure. But it was largely an improvement on existing products in the market. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Now, Apple could release an old smelly dog with the Apple logo branded on its fur, and people would buy it up, lol.
Which is why their products continually top satisfaction ratings right? After all, no one gets tired of trying to be cool, they can put up with a POS as long as they look hip right?

Obviously apple is making great products that people want, that are reliable. Otherwise they wouldn't top the charts in that field.

As for innovation, theres been plenty, but you seem discredit applying a concept to a new field as merely improving.

I still think the magsafe is amazingly innovative, and I'm surprised no one else has done something similar in all these years.
 
No, I think Apple is largely where it is now thanks in large part to the iPod.

Of course. But the iPod was no accident.

Now, Apple could release an old smelly dog with the Apple logo branded on its fur, and people would buy it up, lol.

Microsoft sells an old smelly dog (Windows) with its logo on it and manages to corral 90% of potential buyers. Now that's marketing power!
 
Of course. But the iPod was no accident.

Microsoft sells an old smelly dog (Windows) with its logo on it and manages to corral 90% of potential buyers. Now that's marketing power!

Being that 71% of Windows users are still running XP, and are unlikely to buy into the next smelly pooch, especially since

a large percentage are using pirated copies to begin with, they'd be lucky to corral 20% of potential buyers, if that.

Google Chrome is just around the corner - market share bragging rights status might soon be headed for the coroner.
 
There is plenty wrong with maximizing market share if you are going to destroy your brand in the process. What is Dell known for now? Cheap computers. Want a cheap computer? You buy a Dell! So when Dell introduces an expensive (read: good profit margins) computer model, everyone says "$$$$ for a Dell? Screw that!" How do you ever recover your brand from bargain-bin status? Not an easy task. I don't think that's exactly the position a company should want to be.
Dell still sells plenty of systems, as does HP. Look at HP's revenue per year, and tell me they're complaining. No matter what the consumer market thinks of Dell, Dell still sells millions of systems in the enterprise and government markets. That's a market Apple hasn't even been able to really crack (and good luck seeing Apple crack it to any major extent).

And in regards to lower-margin products driving marketshare and yet destroying brand image, how do you explain the likes of Toyota, Honda, and even recently Hyundai/Kia? Toyota and Honda for years sold vehicles below the cost of the American manufacturers, and yet gained not only marketshare but also very good reputations.

Now look at Hyundai: while most car manufacturers have been losing marketshare or having it remain flat, Hyundia/Kia have actually been increasing their marketshare considerably. Not only that, but they're actually beginning to shed the bad reputations they have, as more and more companies consider their cars very high-quality, and yet still very much affordable.

I'm sorry, but both market approaches can exist. Yes, going for marketshare does often mean sacrificing margins, but it doesn't *have* to mean sacrificing your image as well.

I believe Steve Jobs once said in an interview that you don't lower prices because you can never raise them again. And Dell is now relegated to the status of selling $399 computers to the world. Bad move.
Funny that Steve would say that, given that at one time the cheapest Power Mac was around $2000. Apple eventually started selling them for as low as $1500. Eventually, they once again went back to $2000, and now they're at $2500+.

Even the iMac could once be had for < $1000, and now the introductory model sells for $1200.

What's that about never being able to raise prices again? ;)



Game consoles are a perfect example of what not to do.

Newsflash: Microsoft is still billions in the hole with Xbox. Billions! Sure, they say theirs is a long-term strategy that will result in "sustained profit" as you say, but by the time they're digging out of their original hole they have to introduce a new console (at a loss) and start the whole bleeding process again. It's a never-ending process of losing money.
What? http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/halo3untitledodstgame/news.html?sid=6237794

Microsoft's game division has been turning a profit now for a couple of years. They make money on each console sold. They make quite a bit of money off of peripherals. And they have the highest attach rate in the industry. Care to revisit your "data"?

And how do you explain the Wii? How many has Nintendo sold? Something like 50 million + units. Nintendo has been making a sizable margin off of each Wii sold since the console was released.

Nintendo started selling the Wii at a profit from day one. You don't think Sony or Microsoft would rather be in Nintendo's shoes right now?
So first you say consoles *isn't* the way to go, but then you contradict that argument by pointing out that Nintendo makes money on each Wii sold, which *is* a console. Which one is it?

When Toyota decided it wanted to unseat GM as the world's market share leader, their quality took a dive and their brand has been tarnished. Bad move.
Says who? Show me an article where Toyota's reputation "took a dive". Their models have consistently still been ranked as among the most reliable by many different organizations (JD POwer, Consumer Reports, Car & Driver, etc.).

In fact, part of the whole reason for Toyota's success was that they've always had a good reputation for affordable and yet high-reliability vehicles. Has their customer satisfaction ratings taken hits at time? Sure. But so have Apple and others.

Making the pursuit of market share your singular driving strategy is a fool's errand.
Why? Microsoft's pursuit of having the largest marketshare of an OS seems to have paid off for them. Have there been problems with this? Of course. Windows has had numerous issues, Microsoft has faced numerous lawsuits and confronted other issues, but at the end of the day, people haven't seemed to mind, as the marketshare is still at over 92%.

And at the end of the day, most corporations and organizations still run Windows, and thus still end up purchasing Microsoft software. I don't think Microsoft's shareholders are sitting back, thinking "Damn, if only MS had not wanted to have so many corporations reliant on them, and instead focused on 10% of the market".

I discount the market share approach because it seems to be disastrous for most companies that attempt it.
It seems like you only "discount" it because it's not Apple's approach. Sorry, that's not how things work.
 
Of course. But the iPod was no accident.
I fully agree, it wasn't. The iPod is/was a wonderful product, and Apple hit it rich with it.

But people shouldn't chalk up Apple's success to OS X. OS X has benefited *greatly* from what the iPod brought to Apple. Where were the huge marketshare gains in terms of hardware sold when the iPod wasn't out/had just been released, and Apple was still relying largely on hardware and OS X.

Microsoft sells an old smelly dog (Windows) with its logo on it and manages to corral 90% of potential buyers. Now that's marketing power!
Have you tried Windows 7? It's a very, very good OS. Yes, it copies aspects of OS X. But at the end of the day, I don't care. It works. It works well.

My PC is next to my iMac. When's the last time OS X crashed on me? I can't remember, it's been that long. When's the last time Windows 7 crashed on me? It hasn't since it's been installed. Both are running smoothly and are stable (and both complement each other very well).
 
Which is why their products continually top satisfaction ratings right? After all, no one gets tired of trying to be cool, they can put up with a POS as long as they look hip right?
I'm not discounting their products (trust me, I love Apple products. I've been an Apple supporter since 1998). I'm also not discounting the "cool" factor. I think it helps Apple considerably. It's no different than the brief "cool" phase Motorola went through with the RAZR. The difference is Apple continues to improve and add to their existing products, and do a very good job at it. Motorola just kinda floats along (the Droid is a very well designed device though).

Obviously apple is making great products that people want, that are reliable. Otherwise they wouldn't top the charts in that field.
I fully agree. That doesn't mean though that they're the only ones.

As for innovation, theres been plenty, but you seem discredit applying a concept to a new field as merely improving.
But see, it's not a "new" field. Many of the "fields" Apple has entered, have already existed. Apple simply improves upon what's available. That doesn't mean they don't at times innovate within that field.

I'm not discounting what Apple has accomplished, or trying to discredit them. All I'm saying is, don't apply the "innovate" term to everything they do. As LTD even mentioned above, it's too broad and gets used too loosely, and that's the problem here. People credit Apple with innovating everything.

I still think the magsafe is amazingly innovative, and I'm surprised no one else has done something similar in all these years.
The magsafe is amazing. I would consider it to be a very innovative introduction. That having been said, the idea of a break-away power cable isn't new. In the early 2000s there were plenty of breakaway laptop power breaks, designed largely so that if someone tripped over the cable, the cable that plugged into the socket would "break away" from the brick, and thus prevent the laptop from being pulled down to the ground.

The problem was, almost all of the implementations were pretty crappy, and either you still saw the laptop fall to the ground, or you'd often see where the pins within the brick connectors would become bent or broken.
 
Dell still sells plenty of systems, as does HP. Look at HP's revenue per year, and tell me they're complaining. No matter what the consumer market thinks of Dell, Dell still sells millions of systems in the enterprise and government markets. That's a market Apple hasn't even been able to really crack (and good luck seeing Apple crack it to any major extent).

And in regards to lower-margin products driving marketshare and yet destroying brand image, how do you explain the likes of Toyota, Honda, and even recently Hyundai/Kia? Toyota and Honda for years sold vehicles below the cost of the American manufacturers, and yet gained not only marketshare but also very good reputations.

Now look at Hyundai: while most car manufacturers have been losing marketshare or having it remain flat, Hyundia/Kia have actually been increasing their marketshare considerably. Not only that, but they're actually beginning to shed the bad reputations they have, as more and more companies consider their cars very high-quality, and yet still very much affordable.

Yet, we don't hear BMW complaining about their comparatively low market share and higher profit margin, either.

What? http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/halo3untitledodstgame/news.html?sid=6237794

Microsoft's game division has been turning a profit now for a couple of years. They make money on each console sold. They make quite a bit of money off of peripherals. And they have the highest attach rate in the industry. Care to revisit your "data"?

And how on earth will this miniscule profitability ever come remotely close to compensating for the +$25 Billion in expenditures/losses caused by the XBox?

It will never happen.

And at the end of the day, most corporations and organizations still run Windows, and thus still end up purchasing Microsoft software. I don't think Microsoft's shareholders are sitting back, thinking "Damn, if only MS had not wanted to have so many corporations reliant on them, and instead focused on 10% of the market".

It seems like you only "discount" it because it's not Apple's approach. Sorry, that's not how things work.

However, they have been sitting back saying, "Damn, our stock has basically flat-lined for past 10 years, piracy makes up a sufficient portion of our user base,

consumers believe that our products are substandard, and our CEO has overseen all of it." Again, companies such as BMW focus on 10% of the market, and

do quite well, while maintaining a reputation of high standards - things happen to work in this regard, as well.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.