Apple Has 'Just Weeks' to Solve iPhone 8 Touch ID Dilemma

[EdT]

'
Apple can't guarantee nothing.. The closest you'll get is 'Apple guaranteeing you a working iPhone"

You break a lot of Apps and customers aren't going to care about the legal distinctions, nor will the companies whose apps don't work when they followed the rules about app conformity to Apple's standards.

They can't test all of the Touch ID Apps they have in the App Store in a month, and the companies that use it can't rewrite their app even if Apple knew right now what the new security would do to their app. And that's assuming that the consequences are black and white, and not some combination of using App A and feature B and then FaceTime tries to access the camera. Good luck trying to think of all the permutations with all of the software and not making people, both app makers and users, angry.

 

[Exile714]

It's bad enough MacRumors published this sensationalist junk on their site, but it takes it to a whole other level when they make in into an email blast.

 

[kdarling]

They can't test all of the Touch ID Apps they have in the App Store in a month, and the companies that use it can't rewrite their app even if Apple knew right now what the new security would do to their app.

Oh for Pete's sake. It's no different than using a physical keyboard or an onscreen one to type a 'Y' or 'N'. To an app, it's just YES or NO for authentication. It has no idea how you did it.

Of all the inputs on an iPhone, replacing TouchId is one of the easier ones as far as app impact goes.

And that's assuming that the consequences are black and white, and not some combination of using App A and feature B and then FaceTime tries to access the camera. Good luck trying to think of all the permutations with all of the software and not making people, both app makers and users, angry.

They could never test all the possible combinations before, either.

 

[EdT]

Oh for Pete's sake. It's no different than using a physical keyboard or an onscreen one to type a 'Y' or 'N'. To an app, it's just YES or NO for authentication. It has no idea how you did it.

Of all the inputs on an iPhone, replacing TouchId is one of the easier ones as far as app impact goes.



They could never test all the possible combinations before, either.

Do you have a source for how simple the handshake is for apps using Touch ID? And you're right, they couldn't try every possible combination. Of course, they had at least 6 months and perhaps more than a year to do the testing in the first place AND only limited software originally used or supported the feature at all, and none of those were 3rd party apps like they'd have to worry about now. And quite frankly, even if it is a yes/no input, which I don't think it is, if it doesn't work reliably then it's not just the phone functions, such as unlocking the phone, that are put at risk. Reliably means authenticating who it's supposed to and NOT authenticating who it isn't with very small failure rates both ways. Facial Recognition has been available on Androids as an unlock feature for close to 6 years. Not every manufacturers bothered to implement it, because it added cost and wasn't reliable. The Galaxy 8 briefly hyped their improved Facial Recognition feature this year but it proved easy to fool I and I haven't heard much about it lately, but the 2 people I know with the Galaxy 8 say they don't trust it and don't use it, although they like the phones otherwise.

Link to how to set up Android Face unlock, dated July 24 2012-https://www.androidcentral.com/how-set-face-unlock-your-htc-one-x-or-evo-4g-lte just to show it has been available for a while.

 

[kdarling]

Do you have a source for how simple the handshake is for apps using Touch ID?

Sure. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/localauthentication

- First off, the Apple API is called LocalAuthentication. That alone is a huge clue to us that it's not specifically about TouchId or any other particular method. It was planned to be generic.

- The second clue is that a main parameter choice is called DeviceOwnerAuthenticationWithBiometrics. Again, no part of the API code uses the word TouchId or even fingerprint. It ONLY denotes whether it must be "biometric" or if that's optional.

- And finally, to answer your question, the way the call is used flows like this (simplified for non-programmers):

success = do evaluation using mode: DeviceOwnerAuthenticationWithBiometrics

if (success)
// authentication succeeded
else
// failed, check error

That's it. There's a success flag and there's possible error codes. The biometric authentication could take place via fingerprints, iris, facial, vein analysis, heartbeat, you name it. An app would not know which.

And quite frankly, even if it is a yes/no input, which I don't think it is, (will it be secure)

As seen above, the Apple "TouchId" interface to apps is indeed a yes (success) or no (error) input.

And you're right, Apple can only replace fingerprints if they use something just as good enough.

 

[MH01]

That's fine. It wasn't intended to be insulting so I apologize that it came off that way.

However, you can't levy this as a simple "agree to disagree" without rebutting my claims. You seemingly contradicted yourself by agreeing the iPhone and iPad have identical inputs for communication but that the existence of the Apple Pencil was evidence that the iPad needed a stylus. Both of those cannot be true.

If you care to respond, please explain why you believe the Apple Pencil is somehow different than every other accessory that adds functionality to an iPhone/iPad (SD card reader, keyboards, usb adapters, vga adapter, microphone, P.O.S. readers, guitar input, and on and on...).

Fair enough , let me get back to you shortly with a proper and thought out reply. Just flat out this week.

 

[spinedoc77]

Doc, I don't think the banks are that concerned. If they were, they would've gotten on board with TouchId, which can be easily fooled if someone gets a photo of your prints.



I'm sure it did not take long at all. The banks were already experimenting with fingerprint POS terminals in Europe before Apple came along.

Of course, the banks had much better authentication in mind. They wanted people to come into a bank and register their prints in person so they could be verified as belonging to the actual card owner both then and during purchases... instead of letting whoever had a phone's passcode register their own prints. So TouchId was already a step down from what the banks originally envisioned.

I'm sure they've looked at facial recognition as well, and have already decided what kind of false positive rate is acceptable. In the US it really doesn't matter, since banks still allow card signatures instead of prints

Note that Apple Pay on the Watch doesn't use any authentication during a purchase, because it's assumed the original authentication when it was put on is still valid. Something similar might be workable with facial, and the phone recognizing that you've held onto it since then.

Interesting. Hopefully that means little disruption with Apple Pay and financial apps.

 

[kdarling]

Interesting. Hopefully that means little disruption with Apple Pay and financial apps.

Yeah, I don't see why there would be. People have this weird idea that fingerprints are somehow a sacred authentication method, when in fact the sensor used by Apple is not even the most secure around... just one of the fastest, which is more what banks care about because it encourages spending.

People also forget that banks make a lot of money for handling fraud. They've already come under fire from Congress for not lowering rates with better user authentication. Apparently banks don't consider them related

Besides, even if facial recognition was worse than fingerprints, one is much easier to pull off using Apple Pay than the other is. It's relatively easy to hide in person that you're using a thin fake fingerprint overlaid on your finger.

It's infinitely harder to hide that you're holding up a picture over your face while you attempt to make a contactless purchase with a stolen iPhone, which hopefully hasn't been remotely disabled yet.

 

[Mcarp1982]

For all the rumors we've seen recently surrounding Apple's upcoming "iPhone 8", one of the most inconsistent remains the fate of its Touch ID fingerprint recognition technology in the redesigned flagship device, which is expected to launch in September.

In late May, supply chain sources suggested that Apple had overcome technical hurdles and that the OLED iPhone will have Touch ID integrated into the display. However, according to a report from KGI Securities analyst Ming-Chi Kuo earlier this month, Apple plans to replace Touch ID in the iPhone 8 with a facial recognition security system - a prediction echoed by both JP Morgan analyst Rod Hall and Bloomberg.

In the latest throw of the dice, a report from investment publication Barron's concludes that Apple is still struggling to put a fingerprint sensor under the glass of its next iPhone, and that the company has "just a couple of weeks" to solve the matter before its earnings estimates are at risk.

According to KeyBanc Capital Markets analyst Andy Hargreaves, who contributed to the report, Apple has until August to either place orders for chips to run a fingerprint sensor, or miss that window and not have a fingerprint ID at all, or delay more significantly the release of the iPhone.Hargreaves considers the possibility that Apple will replace Touch ID with facial recognition "increasingly likely" as time passes, but "far from ideal". Echoing the thoughts of many observers, Hargreaves goes on to highlight the challenges a supposed replacement facial recognition security system would need to overcome to meet the standard of existing Touch ID, particularly with regard to authenticating Apple Pay.
Hargreaves concludes that if Apple thinks facial recognition isn't sufficient by itself for login and authentication, then a delay in the retail availability of the OLED iPhone is "very unlikely, but possible". But while the analyst believes a delay up until mid-November would not have an impact on investor expectations for the cycle, anything beyond that timeframe could have negative repercussions.

Alleged leaked 'iPhone 8' glass back panel via Weibo​

Meanwhile, alleged leaks continue to trickle out into the social media sphere, the most recent coming today via Chinese microblogging service Weibo claiming to show an "iPhone 8" production glass panel back that has no cutout for a Touch ID fingerprint sensor. Early rumors suggested Apple would relocate the sensor to the rear of the handset, similar to the Samsung Galaxy S8.

Apple is thought to have incorporated 3D sensing technology in the forward-facing camera of its "iPhone 8", which may perform a function in the purported facial scanning feature. Alongside the redesigned OLED iPhone, Apple is also expected to announce incremental updates to the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus.

Article Link: Apple Has 'Just Weeks' to Solve iPhone 8 Touch ID Dilemma

They should release two iPhone 8 like a plus size I’m not ready to get ride of my 6s for a smaller phone I don’t like the 4.7 my wife’s phone is way to small big is always better and hope they solve the Touch ID and wireless so I can take advantage of it in my truck and hope they have 4k res on the oled and better camera for front and back like Sony has done and better waterproofing

 

[ValO]

Fair enough , that's Your view.

Let's cut our losses here , cause it's degenerating into personal insults.

Yes, i would say that if i were you.
You are not going to win this one....

 

[spinedoc77]

They should release two iPhone 8 like a plus size I’m not ready to get ride of my 6s for a smaller phone I don’t like the 4.7 my wife’s phone is way to small big is always better and hope they solve the Touch ID and wireless so I can take advantage of it in my truck and hope they have 4k res on the oled and better camera for front and back like Sony has done and better waterproofing

A plus would be great. I'm really bummed that I'm going from 5.5 to 5.2 because of the idiotic function bar. IMO that isn't even a true 5.2 screen because they are rumored to be using a 18:9 aspect ratio.

 

[ValO]

A plus would be great. I'm really bummed that I'm going from 5.5 to 5.2 because of the idiotic function bar. IMO that isn't even a true 5.2 screen because they are rumored to be using a 18:9 aspect ratio.

It is going to be 5.8 18:9 , then they' ll use the function bar, and it will be a 5.2 inch 16:9 actual screenarea.

 

[spinedoc77]

It is going to be 5.8 18:9 , then they' ll use the function bar, and it will be a 5.2 inch 16:9 actual screenarea.

Oh cool, so it will at least be a true 5.2" screen. It's still a downgrade from my 7+, but I guess it has so many other positives I can live with that. But there is NO way they don't release a plus in 2018.

 

[ValO]

Oh cool, so it will at least be a true 5.2" screen. It's still a downgrade from my 7+, but I guess it has so many other positives I can live with that. But there is NO way they don't release a plus in 2018.

I agree.
After letting us make a run for the iphone 8 , standing in line, preordering, waiting for it, etc.
They' ll release an 8+ in 2018. And it begins again.
After that it will be tough for apple to show growth in iphone sales.
But perhaps they' ll have the ar glasses ready at that time.

 

[spinedoc77]

I agree.
After letting us make a run for the iphone 8 , standing in line, preordering, waiting for it, etc.
They' ll release an 8+ in 2018. And it begins again.
After that it will be tough for apple to show growth in iphone sales.
But perhaps they' ll have the ar glasses ready at that time.

I'm excited about the AR stuff, there is a lot of talk about AR being present on the iPhone 8 itself as well. If this is true then Apple may leapfrog everyone else as I think there are only a few proprietary phones that do AR like LG's. Maybe the Pixel 2 will have it though, that's really the only competition IMO.

 

[mactipple]

Is Apple really willing to risk ditching Touch ID and use facial recognition for everything from screen unlocking to credit card payments? The more sane strategy would be to maintain Touch ID while providing users with face recognition as an optional security measure, getting real-world feedback on its effectiveness and then perhaps giving it a more dominant role in the future.

The iPhone 8 will celebrate 10 years since the birth of the original iPhone and will have to wow with new features- I just cannot see them leaving out a major feature like Touch ID just because they are missing production deadlines.
[doublepost=1500988261][/doublepost]

I find this very very very hard to believe. A company of Apple's caliber probably had this figured out earlier in the year. I really don't believe they're "scrambling" to get Touch ID implemented.

The thing is, even with all its resources of Apple cannot do miracles. Introducing a new phone with lots of new features is an incredibly complex undertaking. They may have had a working prototype of integrated Touch ID two years ago, but that is totally irrelevant to the realities of costs, mass production, hardware integration, yields etc etc.
[doublepost=1500988631][/doublepost]

Add me to the skeptics who don't believe that a device like the iPhone would be able to make a change like integrated TouchID now, it's just too late in the year.

Agreed, at this moment in time seems incredibly unlikely they are going to drop a major feature like that. Which means they are likely going to announce it with all the expected features in September but production will be slightly (or majorly!) delayed.

 

[Rossatron]

if they remove the touchID button, then why did they remove the 3.5 jack?

 

[kdarling]

if they remove the touchID button, then why did they remove the 3.5 jack?

Good guess: mostly money: https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/8/12839758/apple-is-biggest-winner-from-killing-headphone-jack

As for TouchId, I'm now on the side of those who think that on the OLED model, the sensor will be moved to a large side power button. Case maker leaks seem to point that way, too.

(I think that they'll also put in Facial Recognition. This gives them more options for the future, and we all know they have to get people used to relying on it.)

 

[AsherN]

Note that Apple Pay on the Watch doesn't use any authentication during a purchase, because it's assumed the original authentication when it was put on is still valid. Something similar might be workable with facial, and the phone recognizing that you've held onto it since then.

Different case. The watch requires authentication every time is is removed from your wrist. So it knows that it has not left the person since the last auth. The phone has no such mechanism.
[doublepost=1501013206][/doublepost]

You break a lot of Apps and customers aren't going to care about the legal distinctions, nor will the companies whose apps don't work when they followed the rules about app conformity to Apple's standards.

They can't test all of the Touch ID Apps they have in the App Store in a month, and the companies that use it can't rewrite their app even if Apple knew right now what the new security would do to their app. And that's assuming that the consequences are black and white, and not some combination of using App A and feature B and then FaceTime tries to access the camera. Good luck trying to think of all the permutations with all of the software and not making people, both app makers and users, angry.

They don't need to. That apps use the API. The app gets to a point, calls the API eseentially saying "I need authentication". The API retuns yay or nay. The app does not know or care how it was done.

 

[mactipple]

Question: who believes the chestnut that Apple simply must make phones in China, because of the necessity to be able to wake up thousands of workers in the middle of the night to make last second changes?

You can't have it both ways. Either Apple has no need for such capability because everything is always ready ahead of time, or they do because in real life unforeseen stuff happens.

There are many reasons why most tech companies have their goods manufactured in China. For sure gross margins is a huge reason, but there are many others. China has a massive and skilled (or easily available to be trained) workforce. Phone manufacturing is an extremely complex affair, with parts being made by dozens or hundreds of separate companies, which, surprise surprise, are also in China or neighbouring countries. Just from a logistics point of view, it is so much easier to integrate products which are locally based, then having to shlep them half way around the world. It's a massive and well oiled ecosystem that exists in China and SE Asia, something which cannot be easily replicated in the US for a company like Apple.
[doublepost=1501587216][/doublepost]Ummm... because it will be the 10th iPhone anniversary and they want to release something impressive to celebrate the occasion?

 

[kdarling]

There are many reasons why most tech companies have their goods manufactured in China.

True.

However, I was speaking about the common claim that production cannot be moved to the US because of a supposed need to wake up thousands of virtually enslaved workers in the middle of the night to make last minute changes...

...as compared to those who believe that Apple's designs are set in stone months ahead of time. In which case there is no need for legions of instant workers.

In either case, we've already seen that phone manufacturing in the US and Canada is quite possible. Plus, come on, the US has car factories, which are infinitely more complex than making a smartphone (which equates to more or less just the current smart entertainment center in a modern vehicle). And we have plenty of unemployed good engineers.

/begin opinion

It's really all about money, not ability. The latter is just a red herring that greedy executives give as an excuse to send jobs offshore, or to bring in cheaper (and usually less experienced) offshore engineers.

This country is falling apart because of the short sighted switch to "performance based" bonuses for top execs. All they see now is the need to cut costs.

/end

 

[Bacillus]

True.

However, I was speaking about the common claim that production cannot be moved to the US because of a supposed need to wake up thousands of virtually enslaved workers in the middle of the night to make last minute changes...

...as compared to those who believe that Apple's designs are set in stone months ahead of time. In which case there is no need for legions of instant workers.

In either case, we've already seen that phone manufacturing in the US and Canada is quite possible. Plus, come on, the US has car factories, which are infinitely more complex than making a smartphone (which equates to more or less just the current smart entertainment center in a modern vehicle). And we have plenty of unemployed good engineers.

/begin opinion

It's really all about money, not ability. The latter is just a red herring that greedy executives give as an excuse to send jobs offshore, or to bring in cheaper (and usually less experienced) offshore engineers.

This country is falling apart because of the short sighted switch to "performance based" bonuses for top execs. All they see now is the need to cut costs.

/end

Agree, but Vietnam/Bangla-Desh/Thailand are the New China

 

[saile]

Well ? These are just rumors, and for almost 10 years now with each release of iPhones..impossible impossible to be sure of anything and this is quite normal.
It's crazy to find every time this kind of article while we do not know the position of Apple even if we know that they already made a decision on it long ago. Aside from attracting readers I do not see the interest of this kind of information, based on what one can think.


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apple iphone 6s iphone 7 plus

 

[Rossatron]

Manufacturing jobs usually are done in shifts, so you don't need to wake anybody up...

 

[mactipple]

True.

However, I was speaking about the common claim that production cannot be moved to the US because of a supposed need to wake up thousands of virtually enslaved workers in the middle of the night to make last minute changes...

...as compared to those who believe that Apple's designs are set in stone months ahead of time. In which case there is no need for legions of instant workers.

In either case, we've already seen that phone manufacturing in the US and Canada is quite possible. Plus, come on, the US has car factories, which are infinitely more complex than making a smartphone (which equates to more or less just the current smart entertainment center in a modern vehicle). And we have plenty of unemployed good engineers.

/begin opinion

It's really all about money, not ability. The latter is just a red herring that greedy executives give as an excuse to send jobs offshore, or to bring in cheaper (and usually less experienced) offshore engineers.

This country is falling apart because of the short sighted switch to "performance based" bonuses for top execs. All they see now is the need to cut costs.

/end

I never said manufacturing cannot be done in the US, what I did say was that to reproduce the entire manufacturing/suppliers/shipping ecosystem concentrated in SE Asia in the US is no easy task. Yes money is the principal driver but there are other advantages to the current system. If Apple needs to rapidly increase production, Chinese factories can hire thousands of extra workers almost instantly and, if need be, expand or create new factories in weeks- a time frame that is simply impossible in the US.

I think the focus on bringing manufacturing back the US for current products is misguided. Why put so much effort into bringing back things like phones or laptops that are already done well elsewhere? What the US should concentrate on is in areas where it can be a world leader, such as renewable energy, electric car production, robotics and AI.