Apple Has 'Just Weeks' to Solve iPhone 8 Touch ID Dilemma

[anshuvorty]

Because it's the best solution if you can't get it behind the display.
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Why people keep saying it's only because they want to celebrate the 10th anniversary of iPhone?! The way more obvious reason is that they used the iPhone 6 body for three iPhones now - and not the typical cycle of two. The 10th anniversary is just nice addon but probably not the main reason.

Point taken...
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I feel kinda worried right now for the iPhone 8....these consistent negative press doesn't bode well for the availability of the next-gen iPhone, I mean, we are almost halfway through July! I don't think I remember seeing these ominous rumors with the iPhone 6 or the 5 when they were being developed...

Who knows what the actual situation is like with the iPhone 8....god would I like to be a fly in Jony Ive's office right now...

 

[MH01]

The original Jobs quote about a stylus referred to having to use one to operate a phone. The Apple Pencil is not a stylus.

You may want to watch that keynote, he clearly stated he hated the concept of the stylus, which applies be it an iPhone or an iPad. And given his quote was before the iPad existed, given his reaction and hatred of the stylus, the same would apply the an iPad.

The Apple Pencil is a stylus , call it whatever you want , the function is the same.

 

[deuxani]

Oh come on man, the Vivo one is a tech demo and nowhere near production ready on a mass scale. The MI7 is a concept made by some 3D artist and the third one is again just a virtual demo. None of these are ready for production on a mass scale like the iPhone and the Vivo demo is very slow and not reliable yet. So basically you are proving here that a fingerprint scanner under the screen is not possible yet

 

[Datalinks]

They have had like 4 years to solve this home button problem

 

[Tech198]

This is like turning into a really good story Apple will nail it, they always nail it sooner or later.

In this case, maybe later.

On the other hand.. Apple likes a challenge. Well.. you got it...

 

[handsome pete]

You may want to watch that keynote, he clearly stated he hated the concept of the stylus, which applies be it an iPhone or an iPad. And given his quote was before the iPad existed, given his reaction and hatred of the stylus, the same would apply the an iPad.

The Apple Pencil is a stylus , call it whatever you want , the function is the same.

I just watched that part of the keynote again, and sorry, but you're wrong. He says, "How are we going to communicate with this?" He's referring to how one is going to navigate, type, etc. When he later said, "if you see a stylus, they blew it" he's still referring to the same. I remember the time of palm devices where an included stylus was absolutely essential for basic use. This is what he's referring to. They designed iOS to require only your finger for typing, navigating, etc.

The Apple pencil is an optional accessory that adds precision for specific uses, through touch sensitivity, tilt, weight, and so on. It does things a finger alone cannot do, however it is certainly not a required device for operation of the device (clearly evident by not even being supported on iPhone).

 

[EdT]

1. Money doesn't always solve problems. Apple having the ability to spend literally billions won't add time between now and the release date.
2. Problems can and usually do crop up between prototypes ( which worked fine ) and production models. With something like a smartphone which is updated every year a manufacturer can't afford to set up and run next years new product without screwing up production of the current model. So new problems aren't found until a short time before the new products release, when the production actually starts for the new model.
3. Problems occur every year. Engineers and managers give upper management their opinion on how serious and how long it will take to implement a fix. Usually they are close with those estimates, and there is enough cushion built into the schedule that it doesn't affect the release date. But occasionally a problem has more facets than was originally seen, where solving one problem creates another, or even several new problems. Then it becomes a stress filled guessing game with no guarantees.

 

[spinedoc77]

Because they couldn't build Touch ID into the display without issues.
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I'm curious to see the reaction (outside of crying MR forum members) if it does indeed launch without a fingerprint scanner.

I can see facial recognition taking care of 90-95% of general use functions, like unlocking, etc. Even if they were able to integrate facial recognition with Apple Pay, what I'm wondering is if enthusiasts (those who would be willing to spend $1000+ on an iPhone) will be ticked off by the "gimped" phone, which they didn't succeed in being able to put Touch ID into.

Another stop gap measure, which everyone thought the iPhone 7 was to begin with.

But you're still missing Apple pay. How long will it take to get banks and other financial institutions on board? How about devs who use touch ID to sign in? Even if they did succeed it's can still be a pain sometimes to get your face in front of the phone. I'm planning on getting an ip8, but with no touch ID that may sway my decision to a 7s+, although there would be other things factoring into that.

 

[Razeus]

My questions is, why is Apple in such an infernal rush this year?

Normally they release a new phone one year, then the "S", with incremental improvements the next.

Last year we got the iPhone 7. This year we should get the iPhone 7S, with some minor tweaks and some new features.

NEXT year should be the iPhone 8 with the big changes, with apple having two years to work on the tech. It seems odd that they'd be rushing to release an iPhone 8 this year, which is something they've NEVER DONE BEFORE, putting such an unreasonable deadline on developing the new design and hardware. WTF?

OLED, Wireless charging, VR, etc. This is a complete hardware change that warrants a generation skip in product naming.

 

[Vanilla35]

But you're still missing Apple pay. How long will it take to get banks and other financial institutions on board? How about devs who use touch ID to sign in? Even if they did succeed it's can still be a pain sometimes to get your face in front of the phone. I'm planning on getting an ip8, but with no touch ID that may sway my decision to a 7s+, although there would be other things factoring into that.

What are you talking about, why wouldn't they just be able to incorporate the same "authentication" used with Touch ID, with the facial/iris scanning? When you've been "authenticated", then it processes the payment. The only difference is you hold your phone up, rather than place your thumb.

Why are so many people getting hung up on Apple pay? Apple pay isn't defined by the fingerprint scanner. It is defined by authentication. They can still use the same safe enclave chip in the phone and everything, they would just authenticate using the newer facial recognition hardware method.
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If they replace TouchID, it'll be because they have something better. Faster, more secure, more reliable, etc. It won't be as a design compromise. That's not how Apple roll.

If they can't get TouchID integrated in to the display properly, they just won't. They're not going to release a crappy iPhone. It'll be the one they wanted to make, or they'll delay it until it's ready.

Seriously, it's like nobody has even heard of Apple before. They're all about big, glitzy announcements with as many "wow" moments as they can manage. They produce intricate products with high-quality materials because they don't compromise. That's their brand. This is the tenth anniversary iPhone. This wasn't left to the last minute - they have been working up to this for several (product) generations.

Steve's golden rule was "under-promise, over-deliver". Apple are probably putting these stories out there to maximise the impact when they announce that it's got all this cool stuff you didn't think they could pull off.

I guess you haven't been around the past few years.

Are you going based on your fantasies, or based on what the supply leaks (based on real work being performed by Apple) and other factual evidence collected and evaluated so far?
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You do realize that the 1st video is Vivo prototype device, the 2nd video is a CONCEPT video of the Mi 7, and the 3rd video is a manufacturers concept video as well, right? Synaptics doesn't make smartphones.

With that said, in 6-12 months, I would expect some of these phones to launch potentially with these features built in. So far, the facts we do know show that both Samsung and Apple have been having extreme issues implementing under display finger print scanners into their devices in high volumes.

 

[spinedoc77]

What are you talking about, why wouldn't they just be able to incorporate the same "authentication" used with Touch ID, with the facial/iris scanning? When you've been "authenticated", then it processes the payment. The only difference is you hold your phone up, rather than place your thumb.

Why are so many people getting hung up on Apple pay? Apple pay isn't defined by the fingerprint scanner. It is defined by authentication. They can still use the same safe enclave chip in the phone and everything, they would just authenticate using the newer facial recognition hardware method.
[doublepost=1499886420][/doublepost]

Maybe, I'm not sure how vetted and accepted facial/iris recognition is in the banking and financial community. Do we know what technology they are using? Do the banks and financial institutions worldwide know? I'm sure it took Apple years to make touchID accepted, and much of that time was before its release with Apple working with their partners. In this situation it seems like it will be a complete surprise to everyone. How long will it take banks and financial institutions to vet and accept, and then develop it into their apps?

It's not that I disagree with you, and I'm sure eventually facial and/or iris scanning would be accepted. It's that the process may be a long one and by the time it's as accepted as touch ID we will probably have the iPhone 8s with the touch ID sensor under the glass.

 

[Vanilla35]

Maybe, I'm not sure how vetted and accepted facial/iris recognition is in the banking and financial community. Do we know what technology they are using? Do the banks and financial institutions worldwide know? I'm sure it took Apple years to make touchID accepted, and much of that time was before its release with Apple working with their partners. In this situation it seems like it will be a complete surprise to everyone. How long will it take banks and financial institutions to vet and accept, and then develop it into their apps?

It's not that I disagree with you, and I'm sure eventually facial and/or iris scanning would be accepted. It's that the process may be a long one and by the time it's as accepted as touch ID we will probably have the iPhone 8s with the touch ID sensor under the glass.

Yeah definitely the normal delay, which sucks. I would expect 8-16 months from the quickest of the bunch. Many phones will start to launch these features in the next 2 years.

I do think it would be a premature jump to optics only. However I don't think they have a choice this time, since they seem to be having issues getting the embedded display fingerprint reader to be mass produced successfully.

If it were me, I'd put it on the back, but would have made it in the logo if was anticipating the fail earlier on than they seem to have.

Best case scenario, they push the launch, and get it embedded by Nov/Dec at the latest.

 

[kdarling]

Maybe, I'm not sure how vetted and accepted facial/iris recognition is in the banking and financial community.

Doc, I don't think the banks are that concerned. If they were, they would've gotten on board with TouchId, which can be easily fooled if someone gets a photo of your prints.

I'm sure it took Apple years to make touchID accepted, and much of that time was before its release with Apple working with their partners.

I'm sure it did not take long at all. The banks were already experimenting with fingerprint POS terminals in Europe before Apple came along.

Of course, the banks had much better authentication in mind. They wanted people to come into a bank and register their prints in person so they could be verified as belonging to the actual card owner both then and during purchases... instead of letting whoever had a phone's passcode register their own prints. So TouchId was already a step down from what the banks originally envisioned.

I'm sure they've looked at facial recognition as well, and have already decided what kind of false positive rate is acceptable. In the US it really doesn't matter, since banks still allow card signatures instead of prints

Note that Apple Pay on the Watch doesn't use any authentication during a purchase, because it's assumed the original authentication when it was put on is still valid. Something similar might be workable with facial, and the phone recognizing that you've held onto it since then.

 

[MH01]

I just watched that part of the keynote again, and sorry, but you're wrong. He says, "How are we going to communicate with this?" He's referring to how one is going to navigate, type, etc. When he later said, "if you see a stylus, they blew it" he's still referring to the same. I remember the time of palm devices where an included stylus was absolutely essential for basic use. This is what he's referring to. They designed iOS to require only your finger for typing, navigating, etc.

The Apple pencil is an optional accessory that adds precision for specific uses, through touch sensitivity, tilt, weight, and so on. It does things a finger alone cannot do, however it is certainly not a required device for operation of the device (clearly evident by not even being supported on iPhone).

iPad and iPhone have exactly the same input for communication. It's identical . By admiting the iPad needs a stylus u have failed .

It's not about optional, from its inception iOS was designed to be used by hand. Sorry your making excuses for a blunder under cook. Jobs would never had allowed the pencil

 

[springsup]

What are you talking about, why wouldn't they just be able to incorporate the same "authentication" used with Touch ID, with the facial/iris scanning? When you've been "authenticated", then it processes the payment. The only difference is you hold your phone up, rather than place your thumb.

Why are so many people getting hung up on Apple pay? Apple pay isn't defined by the fingerprint scanner. It is defined by authentication. They can still use the same safe enclave chip in the phone and everything, they would just authenticate using the newer facial recognition hardware method.

People are getting hung up on Apple Pay because the authentication method matters. A lot. There are all kinds of contractual/legal/regulatory issues surrounding payment authentication and who is liable should a fraudulent transaction take place.

You berate others for making conjectures, while at the same time spouting garbage about an industry you appear not to know the first thing about.

I guess you haven't been around the past few years.

Are you going based on your fantasies, or based on what the supply leaks (based on real work being performed by Apple) and other factual evidence collected and evaluated so far?

The supply "leaks" are total horsecrap. I know how iOS devices are architected (it's not a secret - Apple publish lots of information about it). You cannot just rip out TouchID and stick another thing in there within a matter of weeks. If Apple are replacing TouchID, it means architectural changes which have to be planned much earlier in advance.

You seem to treat electronic engineering, computer architecture, financial and consumer-protection regulations like they are LEGO bricks. You're way out of your depth. As are most of these so-called "analysts".

 

[EdT]

People are getting hung up on Apple Pay because the authentication method matters. A lot. There are all kinds of contractual/legal/regulatory issues surrounding payment authentication and who is liable should a fraudulent transaction take place.

You berate others for making conjectures, while at the same time spouting garbage about an industry you appear not to know the first thing about.



The supply "leaks" are total horsecrap. I know how iOS devices are architected (it's not a secret - Apple publish lots of information about it). You cannot just rip out TouchID and stick another thing in there within a matter of weeks. If Apple are replacing TouchID, it means architectural changes which have to be planned much earlier in advance.

You seem to treat electronic engineering, computer architecture, financial and consumer-protection regulations like they are LEGO bricks. You're way out of your depth. As are most of these so-called "analysts".

While I think you're a little harsh, the main point of your argument is accurate. Given all of the Apps that now use Touch ID, EVEN if you could mostly rip out Touch ID and insert Facial ID with few problems, which is very unlikely, if a banking app or something similar has security issues it would turn into a legal nightmare for Apple.

And that's assuming that the Face ID does just drop in and doesn't cause OS lock ups or slowdowns or crashes. Touch ID is part of an integrated software strategy, that 3rd party vendors can also use. So there are lots of unknowns concerning possible problems. To say you could verify that the security replacement could be up and running flawlessly in a month or so is not realistic.

 

[handsome pete]

By admiting the iPad needs a stylus u have failed .

What the hell are you talking about? No one is admitting that the iPad needs a stylus. The mere existence of the apple Pencil is not evidence of its necessity for iPad use.

It's not about optional, from its inception iOS was designed to be used by hand. Sorry your making excuses for a blunder under cook. Jobs would never had allowed the pencil

No one is making excuses for anything. You either fundamentally misunderstand the original Jobs talking point about a stylus or you're being willfully ignorant. Of course it's about being optional, because it is. The Apple Pencil is sold as a separate accessory that works with only with the iPad Pro models. It does not work with the regular iPad models nor does it work with any model of the iPhone. Not only that, there is no software on iOS that requires the Apple Pencil for its use. If that doesn't meet your definition of "optional" then may I suggest one of the numerous free online dictionaries out there?

The Apple Pencil was produced to offer users abilities that a finger is simply incapable of. That's it. It essentially added functionality to existing hardware. However there is absolutely no requirement to use the Apple Pencil in order to use the iPad.

 

[carpleror]

Hmm, no they don't. Either put it on the front of the phone through the screen or push the phone release until October or November. No one cares to have Touch ID in the back for a September release.

The issue isn't (based solely on the information in this article) whether they can release in September, or will have to push to October/November. The article is claiming (and who knows if it's true) that Apple is still working out hardware issues getting in the way of implementing TouchID under the screen, and in order for them to be ready for an October/November release they would need to work that out within the next couple of weeks. If they can't get it figured out within that timeframe, than it would have to be released later than that (or they'll have to get rid of it completely). As per the article, launching in September is not an option anymore.

With that being said, I think this analyst is full of ****. No way Apple is still working on hardware designs some 2 months before launch. I honestly have a hard time believing that they haven't already started production, unless they plan to launch with less than a million devices.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I honestly believe Apple has found a way to QUADRUPLE down on security/leaks, and is throwing bs info out into the rumor mill to increase hype and throw people off. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic about this release, but no one can sit here and say this release doesn't feel different than that of recent years. No one knows what's going on! I mean, we haven't even seen internal part-leaks yet from any of the devices. Regardless of what the TouchID issues are on the 8 model, surely the 7S/7S Plus designs are locked down and production should have started already for a late September release. But we haven't seen ANYTHING from those devices yet. I think that alone is evidence of their plugging the leaks.

 

[MH01]

What the hell are you talking about? No one is admitting that the iPad needs a stylus. The mere existence of the apple Pencil is not evidence of its necessity for iPad use.



No one is making excuses for anything. You either fundamentally misunderstand the original Jobs talking point about a stylus or you're being willfully ignorant. Of course it's about being optional, because it is. The Apple Pencil is sold as a separate accessory that works with only with the iPad Pro models. It does not work with the regular iPad models nor does it work with any model of the iPhone. Not only that, there is no software on iOS that requires the Apple Pencil for its use. If that doesn't meet your definition of "optional" then may I suggest one of the numerous free online dictionaries out there?

The Apple Pencil was produced to offer users abilities that a finger is simply incapable of. That's it. It essentially added functionality to existing hardware. However there is absolutely no requirement to use the Apple Pencil in order to use the iPad.

Fair enough , that's Your view.

Let's cut our losses here , cause it's degenerating into personal insults.

 

[kdarling]

People are getting hung up on Apple Pay because the authentication method matters. A lot. There are all kinds of contractual/legal/regulatory issues surrounding payment authentication and who is liable should a fraudulent transaction take place.

There's no record whether TouchId was used or not.

A POS terminal only knows is that it got a flag that the device authenticated the user. It does not know HOW.

• With Samsung Pay, it's done via passcode or fingerprint or iris scan.
• With Apple Pay on the iPhone, it's done via passcode or Touch Id.
• With Apple Pay on the Watch, it's not done at all during a transaction, but only when the watch is put on.
• With Apple Pay on the Watch, using an iPhone 5 or 5C, there IS NO TOUCHID.

You cannot just rip out TouchID and stick another thing in there within a matter of weeks. If Apple are replacing TouchID, it means architectural changes which have to be planned much earlier in advance.

It wouldn't just be a matter of weeks. They've no doubt planned for other authentication methods all along. And it wouldn't be difficult anyway:

The only piece that needs to know what kind of input is being used, is the Secure Enclave. Nothing else knows that a fingerprint (or passcode) was involved. (Although an app can set a flag saying that passcode is not allowed in place of biometric.)

While I think you're a little harsh, the main point of your argument is accurate. Given all of the Apps that now use Touch ID, EVEN if you could mostly rip out Touch ID and insert Facial ID with few problems, which is very unlikely, if a banking app or something similar has security issues it would turn into a legal nightmare for Apple.

The same issues thing was predicted about TouchId, which ended up being hacked in about two days, and yet no bank backed out.

Touch Id is a convenience method in place of a passcode. Heck, for US customers, even a signature input screen would do, since that's all that's required when on-device authentication is not supported.

So, since Apple Pay is not dependent on TouchId, and we already know that iris scan can be used as a device authentication method, I think that Apple could fairly easily augment their current authentication with a facial scan that is as good (or nearly as good) as TouchId.

Another thing to keep in mind is that less than 5% of iPhone owners even use Apple Pay.

 

[EdT]

There's no record whether TouchId was used or not.

A POS terminal only knows is that it got a flag that the device authenticated the user. It does not know HOW.

• With Samsung Pay, it's done via passcode or fingerprint or iris scan.
• With Apple Pay on the iPhone, it's done via passcode or Touch Id.
• With Apple Pay on the Watch, it's not done at all during a transaction, but only when the watch is put on.
• With Apple Pay on the Watch, using an iPhone 5 or 5C, there IS NO TOUCHID.

It wouldn't just be a matter of weeks. They've no doubt planned for other authentication methods all along. And it wouldn't be difficult anyway:

The only piece that needs to know what kind of input is being used, is the Secure Enclave. Nothing else knows that a fingerprint (or passcode) was involved. (Although an app can set a flag saying that passcode is not allowed in place of biometric.)



The same issues thing was predicted about TouchId, which ended up being hacked in about two days, and yet no bank backed out.

Touch Id is a convenience method in place of a passcode. Heck, for US customers, even a signature input screen would do, since that's all that's required when on-device authentication is not supported.

So, since Apple Pay is not dependent on TouchId, and we already know that iris scan can be used as a device authentication method, I think that Apple could fairly easily augment their current authentication with a facial scan that is as good (or nearly as good) as TouchId.

Another thing to keep in mind is that less than 5% of iPhone owners even use Apple Pay.

My bank app has nothing to do with Apple Pay. The 1Password App, which is a password locker has nothing to do with Apple Pay. My pharmacy app also has nothing to do with Apple Pay. All 3 use Touch ID to verify who I am, and all 3 apps are non-Apple apps, though they are Apple approved.

Can you guarantee that these apps will work with facial recognition with no problems? Could Apple even guarantee it? How many other Apps use Touch ID that have nothing whatsoever to do with using Apple Pay?

 

[handsome pete]

Fair enough , that's Your view.

Let's cut our losses here , cause it's degenerating into personal insults.

That's fine. It wasn't intended to be insulting so I apologize that it came off that way.

However, you can't levy this as a simple "agree to disagree" without rebutting my claims. You seemingly contradicted yourself by agreeing the iPhone and iPad have identical inputs for communication but that the existence of the Apple Pencil was evidence that the iPad needed a stylus. Both of those cannot be true.

If you care to respond, please explain why you believe the Apple Pencil is somehow different than every other accessory that adds functionality to an iPhone/iPad (SD card reader, keyboards, usb adapters, vga adapter, microphone, P.O.S. readers, guitar input, and on and on...).

 

[Tech198]

Can you guarantee that these apps will work with facial recognition with no problems? Could Apple even guarantee it? How many other Apps use Touch ID that have nothing whatsoever to do with using Apple Pay?

'
Apple can't guarantee nothing.. The closest you'll get is 'Apple guaranteeing you a working iPhone"

 

[Bacillus]

Facial recognition is going to be hell on Halloween night…

Whaha, can't wait !
I happen to have the same hairpiece as Donald Trump.
But I use it as a beard (currently, that is...)

 

[kdarling]

Can you guarantee that these apps will work with facial recognition with no problems? Could Apple even guarantee it? How many other Apps use Touch ID that have nothing whatsoever to do with using Apple Pay?

Yes, it would be easy for Apple to guarantee such a thing, because the apps do not know or care how you authenticated. You could've used a passcode, fingerprint sensor in front or behind or under the glass, or iris scan, or a topnotch facial scan, or even picked your nose a certain way. Or in the future, used your brain waves.

It's the whole point of APIs and having the OS handle the authentication instead of each app.

All that those apps know is that you authenticated yourself. Most of them even point out in their user docs that if the fingerprint sensor fails three times in a row, then iOS will fall back on the passcode.

--

Now, that said... if Apple were to additionally provide say, a facial scan that was NOT very secure at all, then they would likely provide a new API for newer apps where they could specify how secure the authentication needs to be. For example, a future kid's app could allow the lesser authentication, whereas a banking app would always require (i.e. default to) the higher levels.

The upshot is that if Apple replaces TouchId, then the replacement will be more / same / almost as good as what it replaces. I say "almost as good as" because TouchId has a false positive rate of one in 50,000 touches. So an alternative that had, say, a one in 40,000 rate would probably be seen as good enough.