Apple Has 'Very Serious' DMA Issues, EU to Enforce Rules 'Soon'

[wbeasley]

They could have introduced an open-access model to macOS. A model that, considering ita similarity to Microsoft Windows, has stood for decades without objections from legislators or regulators.


I’m not following.
How would that be a surefire of avoiding EU fines? 🤔

This doesn‘t reduce their risk of being fined at all!?

you want iOS to be MacOS?

right...

Android on an iPhone giving a user the choice would perfectly meet EU demands.
Choice, competition ... and leaving iOS as users know and like.

 

[Chungry]

you want iOS to be MacOS?

right...

Android on an iPhone giving a user the choice would perfectly meet EU demands.
Choice, competition ... and leaving iOS as users know and like.

I don’t think any of it matters. Apple had an opportunity to get out in front of this. They alone are to blame. Not the dingbats in the EU or elsewhere in the world.

 

[wbeasley]

It’s not what I would do, but what Apple knew was in its power to do. It would have been a win-win in terms of the perceived image. Apple could have self regulated and dictated the terms, rather than having idiots (legislators and politicians) with a thin grasp on technology stumble their way to a set of onerous requirements. Apple has been capricious and unevenly handling App Store rejections/ approvals and developer relations. It’s why the AVP app story never took off. Apple could have single-handedly decided to allow emulators or change the terms of the contract between themselves and developers by charging what their tools where worth instead of the disingenuous (but it makes for good marketing) costs associated with app hosting and Xcode. None of this was news to them they only have themselves to blame for not being proactive here. They gambled a bunch of idiot politicians couldn’t land a blow and came up wrong for once.

no, you all keep telling us how bad and evil Apple are.

explain what you would do as a set of DMA directives. in detail. costs. fees. etc.

i agree the EU are not tech experts. the wording of the DMA shows that.
But if they want to power to fine companies they better find a way to explain what they want. clearly.

 

[wbeasley]

How about the perfect example of how MacOS does it?

Unfortunately you have customs duty so not much difference.

how will Customs know if you bought a phone on holiday?
every person carries one.

 

[wbeasley]

I don’t think any of it matters. Apple had an opportunity to get out in front of this. They alone are to blame. Not the dingbats in the EU or elsewhere in the world.

Apple responded to a threat of a fine.
They are NOT to blame.

 

[Chungry]

no, you all keep telling us how bad and evil Apple are.

First. Im not “you all” and second, no, I never did. Show me where- you can’t. Sweeping generalizations like that do nothing to bolster your stance here. And you’re wrong on this account unless you mistakenly replied to my post.

I said Apple could have (largely) got out ahead of this issue. Which is a neutral statement. I’ve never slagged on them or wanted anything but for them to make smart decisions that don’t put them at the mercy of idiots.

 

[wbeasley]

So the "answer" is to make iOS like MacOS?

Ever had an app update and it hogs power and heats your phone up and chews battery?

Get used to it. Because at least Apple vet apps for phones.
Let people code anything the like and install it just like MacOS lets you ...

iOS does a lot of work to make a portable device last on batteries all day.
that's vastly different to a laptop with large batteries or a desktop.

and with no controls and no reason to notify users, will you be happy if the app is logging keystrokes or turned your camera on without you knowing or sent all your photos to their server?

this is the phone experience you want?

 

[Chungry]

Apple responded to a threat of a fine.
They are NOT to blame.

What Apple didn’t do is respond to changing pressures and forces in the market and make adjustments pro-actively that would have made all this DMA nonsense and antitrust business a non-starter. They alone had the ability to change course but didn’t.

 

[wbeasley]

First. Im not “you all” and second, no, I never did. Show me where- you can’t. Sweeping generalizations like that do nothing to bolster your stance here. And you’re wrong on this account unless you mistakenly replied to my post.

I said Apple could have (largely) got out ahead of this issue. Which is a neutral statement. I’ve never slagged on them or wanted anything but for them to make smart decisions that don’t put them at the mercy of idiots.

how does Apple get out ahead of an issue that has such vague terms of reference?

and by "you all" I mean all those blinding supporting the EU on this who are saying Apple are maliciously compliant etc.
there is a whole group who just keep saying the EU is right on this.

i'm giving all of them an opportunity to explain what they think Apple should have done.

So far all i get is "make it MacOS".

elsewhere i have written why that isnt feasible on a portable phone device.

 

[wbeasley]

What Apple didn’t do is respond to changing pressures and forces in the market and make adjustments pro-actively that would have made all this DMA nonsense and antitrust business a non-starter. They alone had the ability to change course but didn’t.

Apple is making more sales and more profit the same way they always ran the store.

Why should they change that?

The pressures and forces arent coming from customers.

 

[NOATAK]

Seriously? I’m no expert but Apple has made massive changes yet the tone of this makes it sound like they are at off. Feels a bit theatrical to me.

Massive changes? 😳 Feels more like baby steps and making it as unappealing as possible so that no one will ever use it in the end.

The DMA is supposed to enable more competition, but if everything continues to be monitored by Apple and every third-party store has to pay a ridiculous fee to Apple, then that doesn't comply with the law at all.

Apple believes they can play games with the EU, but in the end, they will whine again when it all backfires on them.

 

[mode11]

1. Apple is obviously taking the piss out of the DMA, being every bit as passive-aggressive and foot-dragging as one would expect. As a corporation, they are practically duty-bound to fight anything that might impact their profits.

2. The EU obviously need to impose huge fines, because nothing else would have any effect on Apple's behaviour. If there's no meaningful penalty, they might as well not bother with legislation.

The EU are a bit ahead of other regions, but similar initiatives are springing up elsewhere, including in the US. Apple's had a good run of it, and made trillions of dollars, but they don't get to seek rent for the rest of time - and neither would Google, if they didn't already allow alternative app stores / sideloading.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Apple is making more sales and more profit the same way they always ran the store.

Why should they change that?

The pressures and forces arent coming from customers.

It is, customers aren’t only end consumers, they include all developers and businesses etc.

how does Apple get out ahead of an issue that has such vague terms of reference?

It’s. Or vague, it literally have a list of ”don’t do this”

and by "you all" I mean all those blinding supporting the EU on this who are saying Apple are maliciously compliant etc.
there is a whole group who just keep saying the EU is right on this.

i'm giving all of them an opportunity to explain what they think Apple should have done.

Not tried to dance on the line and not expect to be burned.

So far all i get is "make it MacOS".

elsewhere i have written why that isnt feasible on a portable phone device.

Well the think its a thing on iOS already, just locked behind a small paywall intended for developers. All Apple in my mind would need to do is put it as a free option and not as a developer account. Or rather allow the existing free account to have more than 3 apps and 7 days rolling verification

Giving you the ability to install third party applications outside the AppStore.

Currently I’m running an enterprise certificate for a few dollars the last few months to allow me to side load iOS applications for a year.

Ever had an app update and it hogs power and heats your phone up and chews battery?

It’s not burning up, nor hogging battery life etc.

Get used to it. Because at least Apple vet apps for phones.
Let people code anything the like and install it just like MacOS lets you

That would be awesome to be code your own thing and run it… is this really controversial?

I can control more of what’s op’s actual send and receive and force them to stay offline instead just ”asking nicely ”

 

[ericwn]

So the "answer" is to make iOS like MacOS?

Ever had an app update and it hogs power and heats your phone up and chews battery?

Get used to it. Because at least Apple vet apps for phones.
Let people code anything the like and install it just like MacOS lets you ...

iOS does a lot of work to make a portable device last on batteries all day.
that's vastly different to a laptop with large batteries or a desktop.

and with no controls and no reason to notify users, will you be happy if the app is logging keystrokes or turned your camera on without you knowing or sent all your photos to their server?

this is the phone experience you want?

Because security is such an issue on macOS? What a humerus argument.

 

[Infinity Vortex]

The EU seems to think Apple should provide them everything for free… Apple would be better off to install Android on the iPhones it sells in the EU, and that can be free!

So then Apple loses out on ALL potential revenue from their App Store and services in the EU instead of just a little bit of it? 🤔

 

[Beautyspin]

I'm well aware of the practice. I think it's a terrible practice.

Unfortunately, Apple is stuck doing business there 🙂

 

[wbeasley]

Because security is such an issue on macOS? What a humerus argument.

MacOS isnt secure. It's better than Windows. But that's a low benchmark to aim for.

iOS was designed from the start to be secure. You know that.
And battery management is an issue for portable devices the size of phones and iPads.
That's why iOS/iPadOS is similar but different as well.

MacOS is not something Apple are interested in doing.
They've said it many times.

MacOS is keyboard/mouse while iOS is touch first.

 

[mode11]

MacOS is not something Apple are interested in doing.
They've said it many times.

I mean, one sometimes gets that impression, but source?

 

[wbeasley]

It is, customers aren’t only end consumers, they include all developers and businesses etc.

It’s. Or vague, it literally have a list of ”don’t do this”

Not tried to dance on the line and not expect to be burned.

Well the think its a thing on iOS already, just locked behind a small paywall intended for developers. All Apple in my mind would need to do is put it as a free option and not as a developer account. Or rather allow the existing free account to have more than 3 apps and 7 days rolling verification

Giving you the ability to install third party applications outside the AppStore.

Currently I’m running an enterprise certificate for a few dollars the last few months to allow me to side load iOS applications for a year.


It’s not burning up, nor hogging battery life etc.

That would be awesome to be code your own thing and run it… is this really controversial?

I can control more of what’s op’s actual send and receive and force them to stay offline instead just ”asking nicely ”

dance around answers 😉

you seem to think your personal needs outweigh the needs of every other iOS device user.
you might control whatever code you write. you dont control what code bad agents will write and others will install.
there are more than enough personal stories i've encountered with non tech users "accidentally" installing dodgy software. most tech people will have similar stories.

you can code your own thing and run it on your dev account on you device.
that's called testing.
if it works and passes the conditions clearly set out by Apple for over a decade you can release and monetize it.
just like millions of other devs do.

The DMA is vague. Show me the "dont do this" that Apple did...
it's more EU thinks there words mean something and other people interpret it differently. 😉

 

[ericwn]

MacOS isnt secure. It's better than Windows. But that's a low benchmark to aim for.

iOS was designed from the start to be secure. You know that.
And battery management is an issue for portable devices the size of phones and iPads.
That's why iOS/iPadOS is similar but different as well.

MacOS is not something Apple are interested in doing.
They've said it many times.

MacOS is keyboard/mouse while iOS is touch first.

Nobody wants a full macOS without alterations but most customers would love the option of choice as to where they get their software from. Battery life is not something Apples review process takes care of and as a silly human review process it’s been proven prone to errors time and time again. Apple can easily provide options but it chose a complete lockin from day one under the presents of security when it’s really just extracting as much money, as possible, and being a gatekeeper.

 

[wbeasley]

1. Apple is obviously taking the piss out of the DMA, being every bit as passive-aggressive and foot-dragging as one would expect. As a corporation, they are practically duty-bound to fight anything that might impact their profits.

2. The EU obviously need to impose huge fines, because nothing else would have any effect on Apple's behaviour. If there's no meaningful penalty, they might as well not bother with legislation.

The EU are a bit ahead of other regions, but similar initiatives are springing up elsewhere, including in the US. Apple's had a good run of it, and made trillions of dollars, but they don't get to seek rent for the rest of time - and neither would Google, if they didn't already allow alternative app stores / sideloading.

do you pay tax? do you push your claim to the limit to maximise a return?
what's the difference here?

the EU wrote some vague directives. Apple interpreted them and made changes, quite significant ones.

It's a bad as someone saying "i cant tell you what I want but I'll know it when i see it".
those are the worst customers.

 

[Infinity Vortex]

dance around answers 😉

you seem to think your personal needs outweigh the needs of every other iOS device user.
you might control whatever code you write. you dont control what code bad agents will write and others will install.
there are more than enough personal stories i've encountered with non tech users "accidentally" installing dodgy software. most tech people will have similar stories.

you can code your own thing and run it on your dev account on you device.
that's called testing.
if it works and passes the conditions clearly set out by Apple for over a decade you can release and monetize it.
just like millions of other devs do.

The DMA is vague. Show me the "dont do this" that Apple did...
it's more EU thinks there words mean something and other people interpret it differently. 😉

Why do your personal needs outweigh the EU’s need to make sure their markets are operating fairly?

 

[gnipgnop]

First. Im not “you all” and second, no, I never did. Show me where- you can’t. Sweeping generalizations like that do nothing to bolster your stance here. And you’re wrong on this account unless you mistakenly replied to my post.

I said Apple could have (largely) got out ahead of this issue. Which is a neutral statement. I’ve never slagged on them or wanted anything but for them to make smart decisions that don’t put them at the mercy of idiots.

They already did that and it didn't matter to the EU. Apple reduced the commission for subscriptions to 15% after the first year back in 2016. They reduced the commission for developers that make less than a million dollars annually to 15% in 2020.

Given that the EU's $1.8 billion fine of Apple per music streaming didn't include providing evidence of harm to consumers or the streaming market in general I'm not sure what Apple is supposed to do proactively. All you have to do is look at Spotify's history on the App Store and the growth curve they had after Apple Music was launched to know that the EU never cared about the reality of the situation.

 

[cocky jeremy]

EU won't fall for that. They can count it however they like, and likely count the entity plus it's parent company and all subsidiaries since Apple Inc. owns 100% of the European entity.

Apple also shifts a lot of US profit into their European entity for tax reasons, and lists profit globally.

Just use whatever number Apple shares with the public: "Worldwide revenue is X"

Then Apple picks a sole distributor and sells them them only, and Apple isn't involved at all in the EU market. Easy enough.

 

[gnipgnop]

Why do your personal needs outweigh the EU’s need to make sure their markets are operating fairly?

If the EU was really concerned with fair market operation they would have laughed at Spotify's complaints. Spotify was an early adopter of the App Store model and only made the free ad-supported version of the app available on the store. Upgrading to the premium subscription version was done via the internet. So in both cases Apple was not making a dime from them for commission. That strategy was Spotify's choice right from the beginning. And yet the EU is trying to fine Apple $1.8 billion for supposed abuse of the music streaming market.